project89

iTrader: (1)

now that ive calmed myself a lil bit i think im going to order an ms1 v2.2 for 250$ and add the flyback board for 36$ to allow me to keep my peak and hold injectors

thats option #1 at 258$'s

option #2 is a ms1 v 3.57 for 375$ i could get the std ms1 v 3.0 for 365 but ill gladly pay the extra 10$ not to have to solder jumper wires the dip switches are worth the 10$, not to mention i can drop my ms2 cpu into it

option #3 is an ems pro and harness for 400$ shipped basically an ms extra unit on steriods

i want an ms3x but at 700$ i may as well just spend the extra money and pick up a fast or something

Drac0nic

Did your MS2 CPU come with your board? I had one I melted down and the CPU its self wasn't quite right after. Just something to keep in mind, if you're going to scorch earth do so fully.

project89

iTrader: (1)

i dont belive the cpu is bad , as my ms does the same thing with either the ms1 or ms2 cpu installed , i can always grab my buddies ms2 cpu and see if the issue goes away

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

It's probably got a bad solder joint.

I have a spare ms2 3.57 complete. Diyautotune unit, less than a year old. Not sure what I'm doing with it. I like the Microsquirt, waaaay better hardware. A lot people have problems with poorly assembled ms2..

-- Joel

project89

iTrader: (1)

if it does id imagine it on the input side of things


shoot me a price?

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Sent you a PM.

I love the MS2extra operating system and tunerstudio, but I really dislike the MS2. It's too much of a science project, with waaay too many components. I also don't dig the DB35 connector.

-- Joe

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

But i thought you were the computer geek? Lol

project89

iTrader: (1)

ill agree with joe about ms2 vs microsquirt , id rather run the micro as well as its a better unit but unfortunatly it wont work with my setup because im using peak and hold injectors, and the cost of swaping to high-z injectors makes switching to a micro much more costly


i have been using ms since it first came out it is a great unit as long as u dont get one somone half *** assembled like the used unit i bought

i think the only safe bet on a used unit is the v3.57 stuff

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

No. I'm a software engineer, with a minor in EE.

But even if I enjoyed soldering, which I don't, the way the MS2 is sold is an issue and has been for years. Let me give you some examples:

MS 3.0 board - tooooo many components, not SMT, prone to issues:





I wouldn't even run one of these in a car that I wasn't intending on pushing home.


Then the MS 3.57. It's SMT and way more reliable, but you still have
to add resistors and make little modifications depending on what you want to do:




Then Microsquirt module - fully SMT, used for PNP applications, no modifications required. Just wire it up. Doesn't need any special resistors or anything stupid, everything works out of the box:




They all have the same SOFTWARE functionality, and will drive all the same hardware. Just the Module is more reliable. (like MS3Pro)

Rather than use a MS2 with a DB35 connector and splice my factory harness in, I mounted the Microsquirt module inside a '165 ECM case, and wired it to a delphi 56 connector. It's a plug and play ECM.

The spare MS2 3.57 unit I have was assembled by Diyautotune, and it has all the resistors and mods for HEI, the ADC inputs, etc already done so I trust it. But I still prefer to use the Module on my own vehicle. If it was assembled by someone else, I wouldn't have accepted it.

-- Joe

project89

iTrader: (1)

one more computer geek here as well , lol this is one of my rigs


i doubt many ppl here even know what those are lol

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

The injector drivers on the Microsquirt will run P&H injectors, you are just current limited to 5A. A lot of guys run resistor packs, or P&H driver board (from diyautotune) which is the better way to do it. Even with an MS2 you can toast the injector drivers running 8 low-z injectors if you are not careful.

There is actually two things the MS2 can do that the Microsquirt can't:

1) PWM limiting on the injector drivers
2) Can drive a coil directly. (i.e, no ignition module)

The coil driver can only drive 6 coils though so you still can't do V8 CNP (unless you do wasted spark).

-- Joe

project89

iTrader: (1)

im pretty sure my precision turbo injectors would overload the circut in the micro , i wouldnt even chance it , i think the driver in the micro is designed to run 4 injectors while in the normal v3.0 and up its designed to handle 8

project89

iTrader: (1)

theres a few companys making coil drivers that will alow u to do 8-12 cop systems with the ms now, i toyed with the idea but hei works just fine for now

project89

iTrader: (1)

thanks to joe ill have a new ms2 soon ,

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I get nervous running low-z stuff directly cuz you can pull a lot of amperage and actually desolder from the heat.

The Micro can run TWO low-z injectors directly, that's it. Any more and you must run a resistor pack per injector, or use logic level and command a P&H board. the MSPnP that diyautotune used to sell was a microsquirt, a P&H board, an IAC board, and a fuel pump relay inside a ECM case. basically the same thing I'm running, but I don't have the P&H board.

The MS3PnP is quite a bit more advanced though, and the flash memory for data logging is awesome.


-- Joe

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Rob must be sleeping, otherwise he would be telling you to buy an EBL

-- Joe

project89

iTrader: (1)

would have considered it if i had a stock harness for the car , but a stock jy harness is crazy exspensive


thanks again joe lol this makes 2 big items on my car ive bought from ya lol

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Eventually when I blow the 412 up (or decide to stick it in my C3), I'll just do wasted spark on the LSx I picked up, I'll just have to switch to LS2 coils (which have built in dwell) since they are logic-level driven.

Hopefully this winter I'll have that all gone through and ready to go.

-- Joe

project89

iTrader: (1)

heres that coil driver for a v8
http://www.ebay.com/itm/8-cylinder-C...mtr&rmvSB=true

the thing i dont like about wasted spark , is u cant do spark based rev limiting , u can only do fuel cut , which is a big no no on a forced induction motor, that box lets u do standard cop setup so u can use spark cut, i.e rev limiting,2step, and launchcontrol , along with traction control

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

You should see what's in my basement. A lot of times I buy stuff just to try, or cuz I might use it one day. I've got boxes and boxes of brand new race parts with a layer of dust on them. I actually just got rid of a boat load of stock stuff to the scrap metal guys. I had nodular cranks, L98 heads, some 2 bolt main 350 blocks, etc that I just never was going to do anything with. I kept the 2.02 camel hump heads and a pair of vortec heads.


-- Joe

project89

iTrader: (1)

lol i gota stop spending money on my car , i need to save up 2 grand for upgrades for my mx bike

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

You *can* do spark cut, you'll just end up with a wicked backfire eventually haha. You can probably do a retard based rev limit though.

You can't do a spark cut with a HEI module anyway, even if you stop commanding advance it will run off the module. (or am I thinking of EDIS?). Now I don't recall.. If you supply +5 to the est, yet don't send it an advance signal will it just never fire the coil?

I just dropped 20k on the new kitchen, and another 3k on granite steps/entryway to the house. Life is expensive.

-- Joe

project89

iTrader: (1)

spark cut works very well with hei, it does not work at all with edis

project89

iTrader: (1)

the bad part i could buy a 450cc mx bike for about what im putting into my 250
and the 450 will still be faster , my problem is i love everything about my 250, from the feel of it to how it handles riding position etc etc , the bike feels like it was made for me compared to all the other bikes ive ridden


i think after the mods though ill be really close to having the power of the 450 on a bike/frame i really like , which is mor eimportant to me then having all the power i want but not feeling right on it

Drac0nic

BTC mining?

I think you made the right choice trying a whole new system. We'll see how it goes, but the one I had definitely had ghosts in it after I thrashed it.

project89

iTrader: (1)

yes it is i actually have a rather large personal btc mining farm and it just keeps expanding , the bad part is i need 2x the hashrate i had before as the reward in btc just got cut in half. i was making really good money up until the halving , though im still making good money now

joe also had a relay board and cable to go with the ms system but i couldnt afford it atm and i need an ecm asap , so i made a deal with him to buy the relay board and cable in a week or so , when i get that im going to rewire the entire car

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Haha, Rob was in Atlantic City, living and enjoying life...

Online they are very expensive, but here you could have gotten one for very cheap. Lot of third gen dealers here that would give you excellent deals, in fact Eric over in Freehold is someone I always recommend, very stand up guy and has just about everything. Your car came TPI from what I remember reading in the first build thread, but I am assuming the former owner cut the harness when he went carbed. I can't stand the ignorance when former owners do that, drives me nuts and makes it harder for the next owner. Too much trouble with the MS systems from what we've seen, and what's funny is members think I am basing that info from this website when I am not. The Turbo Buick board for example has crazy tech with the stock ECM's, and the MS threads that are started inevitably go nowhere because there aren't enough users to comment. You will always read MS3 Pro, yada yada yada, but the threads are dead after the first couple of posts. Not going to try and sell you on the EBL system Dave because you know it speaks for itself, but if you ever did I would have a harness shipped over to you the next day if you needed. Hell, I just got home a few hours ago only to find a EBL datalog/bin from a member sent to me in my email, dialing himself in rather quickly from what I can see, and he is soon to be boosted to boot. This is the difference that lurking members will see when comparing, they see what works, and what doesn't. They'll see the potential promises of one, and the actual performance of the other. This is obviously not directed towards you Dave because you are like a brother to me...

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Cool!

One of the biggest problems with MS, as I pointed out earlier, is hardware problems due to assembly.

The second problem, which I'll admit, is the documentation is not very straight forward. Unless you really know what you are doing you can get frustrated very quickly. This compounded with the fact that two operating systems exist (B&G and MSextra) with different feature sets, yet documentation doesn't always cite which OS they are referring to when discussing functionality.

But in reality, for every EBL out there (which I suspect is less than 100 units total) there is about a thousand happy Megasquirt owners.

It's unfortunate that you have to user Tunerpro and WUD with it though. Even I'd find the EBL more tolerable if there was a better GUI. No matter what ECU you are tuning, Tunerpro is an epic POS - you've got to admit.


-- Joe

project89

iTrader: (1)

i managed to find a great manual for the ms2 v3.57 , the web manual for the std ms1/2 extra sucks now ever since they changed websites, lucky for me i have the original manual from the original site printed out , all 200 something pages

heres the good 3.57 board manual
http://www.msextra.com/doc/pdf/MS2V357_Hardware-3.3.pdf

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Ms3 pro is a completely different system from what i am reading. Its a complete box so no hardware assembly. Scott Clark uses it on pro stock cars and everything in between. Seems to be a great system.

It just scares me because the bad stuff i always heard about the other megasquirt stuff over the years

project89

iTrader: (1)

most of the bad stuff u will read will come from ppl who ddnt read the manual, have no business trying to assemble there own unit , or bought a second hand crap unit like i did .

all the assembled and self assembled units i have done mysef have never had an issue , streetlethal helped me do my very first ms many years ago on my v6 , we had that thing up running boosted from scratch in about an hour, that was an ms1 2.2 unit i think the v3.0 board had just recently come out when i did my very first one on the v6


ms3/3x and ms3pro are a long way from what the system started as

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

MS3 and MS3pro are different things.

The MS3 is a daughtercard that sticks into a 3.57 board. I could have purchased an MS3 CPU and installed it in the 3.57 ECU that is now going to Project89.

https://www.diyautotune.com/product/...hterboard-kit/

For $220, you can upgrade the MS2 to a fully functional MS3. But you still have the db36 connector, the big *** case, the relay board, etc. (I know I know, I'm the most picky person on the planet)


The MS3pro is based on the MS3 module. Just like the Microsquirt module (that I run) that was used for the MsPNP, the MS3 module is a complete SMT design from scratch with no junk:

https://www.diyautotune.com/product/ms3-pro-module/

You could stick an Ms3 module in a '165 case with a D56 header and make a plug and play MS3 thirdgen ECU. This is the whole point of it's existance.

The MS3 pro is basically it inside a weathertight case, with an Ampseal connector.

-- Joe

86CamaroDan

MAF systems are more accurate than MAP systems no doubt. They likely use both because they have to conform to emissions and CAFE (Corporate Average Fuel Economy) puts the noose around every manufacturers neck.

86CamaroDan

Might be thinking EDIS, I have spark cut/two step on my HEI, though if i hold it for too long i do get a big old bang. Poor muffler doesnt stand a chance.

project89

iTrader: (1)

yeah mufflers dont stand a chance against antilag/ 2 step systems unless ur running lie bullet mufflers or glass packs


anyways cars on back burner for a lil bit to my hand heals up , just hoping my hand will be good enough for me to race my dirtbike in a harescramble in nevada on the 27th of aug


not even taking my car to the parade this weekend , probably head out to vegas in oct or november when it starts to cool down.

when my hand heals up a bit ill get the car back out and driving though

DIGGLER

iTrader: (1)

Ms2 worked good for me. I spent about 4 evenings after work soldering everything together. I made the engine harness over a weekend. I did the wizard thing, input all my parameters and it fired up into a nice idle, first time I hit the key. I was triggering it with an msd digital 7/crank trigger. Controlled spark with dig.7, and fueling with the ms2. Never had a reliability issue with it.
Physical size of the ms2 box is about 25% smaller than a ls pcm.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Car sounds sick w/surround sound Dave, I'm loving it...

I never had either.

But it isn't as user friendly, which leads to the problems, which is the main complaint...

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

The problem I've found was conflicting documentation between B&G code and MSextra, but as far as the GUI being user friendly, I find it very easy to use. Almost like an apple product.

The new Holley stuff is nice too, but the fuel table bing DC based is a little strange for me. I guess at the end of the day though nobody cares what the number actually is or means, simply that they are getting the appropriate AFR they intend.

-- Joe

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

It's possible that its' code got better, which is to be expected with any firmware over time. A joint and collaborative open source venture was the problem in the beginning, too much for users to absorb, very little tech supplied for the needy and lost users, and those who had the tuning tech felt a little too privy to share the tuning tech, so the confused users inevitably went with something else that they could use, something more practical for them.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Yeah i see one with fuel mass flow for fueling table. But like you said and what i have been saying all along lol does it matter how you get there as long as it gets there? In this case end result is proper air fuel which makes motor happy

Drac0nic

Something I have noticed with the B&G vs Extra configurations is that not only the code varies but they may have different ways of doing the exact same thing. HEI using MS1 Extra runs a circuit to "turn on" the timing control with the PCB vs the MS-2 which uses a relay for the reference stuff.

That said their documentation has gone down hill over the years. I built a Megashift for my 4L80E, and it was flat out riddled with errors. Not only that but there are design flaws in the VSS input circuit that cause it to generate noise. A 50 cent IC did a far better job after retrofitting it in.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

That has never made sense to me using the relay, since you can use a spare port.



vs: http://megasquirt.free.fr/sources/MS.../ms2/spare.htm

Basically, you are using a relay to switch the +5 vref to the ignition module when the key is in the run position, but not crank.

With using a spare port, you can instead turn the +5 vref on when RPM is greater than say 300 rpm.

On the Microsquirt Module and MS3-module, we jumper +5v to a spare input pin (19), which the software then can switch as an output on pin 44.


The relay method to me is just extra stuff to fail. But 99.9% of people find that page in the documentation and do it that way.

What did you use for hardware? A microsquirt ?

-- Joe

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

I think the hardware work arounds are what make the docs so difficult. For instance, the try do the resistor pack hack (bad turn on/off times) or PWM for peak and hold injectors. Confuses everyone.

They try to add in jumper wires for different trigger source for crank and cams. Confuses everyone.

The hardware grounding scheme was suspect from the get go and caused a lot of problems. I think this is one of the biggest problems people have even today. I don't think it was thought out well enough for large coils with high dI/dT rates. Puts noise on all the inputs and "random" trigger errors, input errors, resets.

The VR ckt is always been flaky. Simple MAX9924-27 part would fix all that but I think they don't do it due to sourcing the part.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

The 3.0 can do things the microsquirt can't do. It can control P&H injectors, various ignition input triggers, stepper motor idle control. All these things require a lot more circuits/ICs.

The microsquirt is great for using an HEI module input or hall effect sensor or any logic level input, using saturated injectors, and PWM idle controll. If you want different then it is back to wipping out the soldering iron and a bag-o-parts.

Assembly is dependent upon the builder. No different than getting brakes put on a car, or a custom turbo setup fabbed. Good builders do it right. A bad operator the wave soldering machine is going to mess up the SMT boards. Heck, I have seen guys around here build turbo manifolds using a torch and brazing on flanges........you don't want that guy fabbing a turbo setup. Just as you don't want someone with equivalent skills soldering an MS board.

Yeah, the DB connectors suck. I never understood why this connector was chosen other than for the first prototype is was cheap and widely available. It should have been changed out before they started trying to sell hardware.

The microsquirt, MS3, MS2, MS1 are all decent hardware and software. Each has an optimal application. The tuning software is light years better than what is available for the OEM GM PCMs.

I think project89 will be happy with a new properly built unit.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Do you mean the 3.0 module, or the MS2 3.0/3.57 board?

True, but the add-on circuit for the stepper is only about $6 and takes 10 minutes. If you don't wanna make it, you can buy a pre-made one for about $28. You are correct though, the Microsquirt can't do more than two P&H injectors without resistors or a P&H expansion board.

I'm not aware of any ignition inputs it is missing? The only other missing feature, as you mentioned, is the ignition output is logic only (it can't drive a coil, it must use an ignition module or a logic type coil like an LS2 coil).


The 3.0 module however is quite a bit better than the MS2 module, no doubt.

You can buy a microsquirt + the inline stepper adapter for about $350 total and replace your '730, '165, or EBL though. I still think that is a better option than a MS2 3.57. Smaller too, and weather tight ampseal connector.

This is one of the things I like most, the GUI and the programmable outputs. I also dig the fact that I can use the same GUI/interface if I own a ford, chevy, a boat, etc. Sure Holley is probably better, but not for twice as much money.

The big difference is the original MS stuff, the self assembly, etc is geared towards geeks who are skilled in electronics. A guy wrenching on the weekend thinking he's gonna save a buck by soldering together his first ECM is going to have issues, get frustrated, then complain about it on the forums. It doesn't help that the developers are elitest ****** who treat people like they are idiots when they have a "simple problem".

But if you pay twice as much or more, I'm sure holley tech support will kiss your rear


-- Joe

project89

iTrader: (1)

surprise update !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



cars going in for a repaint , if u guys think the last color was cool wait till its done this time

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Why?

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

just...

You're nuts.

project89

iTrader: (1)

theres actually an issue with the current paint , im not repainting just to change the color , the car actually needs to be resprayed


lol im not crazy enough to repaint it if the current paint was good

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I don't know how you get such good paint jobs with all that dust out there. I blew my shop out with a leaf blower, tarped the walls and everything, and STILL got dirt in my paint.




-- Joe