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History / OriginalityGot a question about 1982-1992 Camaro or Firebird history? Have a question about original parts, options, RPO codes, when something was available, or how to document your car? Those questions, answers, and much more!
We won't mention the spindles or bearings either, dubious value anyways - the package is just brakes.
Because the specific spindles and bearings aren't in any way related to the brakes?
Originally Posted by Mark_ZZ3
And remember I'm a book hound.
Same here. My library keeps growing as every time I think I've got all the documentation I need, I decide to branch out a bit further, or find a new document I didn't previously know about. My bookcases are full, and now I've got stacks of 3 ring binders sitting all over.
There is half a page of rear lower control arms with different part numbers in the catalog. I'm not sure I can buy into GM formulating that many different rubber compositions. More on this to come when I have a few minutes to dig into it a bit more.
Originally Posted by edpontiac91
Here's one question for you experts. What is this small "Brace Bar Support" in the picture?
There's a blurb in Camaro The Third Generation that talks about the firewall brace. It explains that it was intended to reinforce the firewall to compensate for strength lost when the holes were added for the HVAC system. Initially it was a Z28 only item, but further into production you can find it used randomly. Doesn't really have anything to do with 1LE since it dates back to pre-production, just like the radiator support braces. I've seen plenty of FE2 cars without the firewall-fender brace, and plenty others with. It seems like it was considered unnecessary at times.
Here's one question for you experts. What is this small "Brace Bar Support" in the picture? As you can see, there is even a small lip that extends from the R.S. hood hinge, that it attaches to. I have seen this on SOME models and NOT on others. What is it called and what was it supposed do. Did it have any function and was it used on the 1LE models and then just put on from time to time as the factory seen fit?
On the other picture, I also noticed some models had a small (about 6" long) thick bar that attached to the side of the front frame and the inside of the fender well. It looks like there was no way this was bolted on BEFORE the motor was dropped in. I do NOT have this part, but if I could get one, it would be REALLY hard to install!
I think the guy installing them took a lot of breaks or went potty a lot because some cars have them and some don't. Very random install just like the vertical frame rail to strut tower braces.
WOW, that explains ALOT. If you exam the hood hinge, it looks like somebody had to design that tab for it to support something (BUT WHAT) and if it was needed on some and not on others
Well another myth is going to be started, so let me talk to the engineer who came up with this and added another $2.48 for the bean counters to plug in!
Originally Posted by PurelyPMD We won't mention the spindles or bearings either, dubious value anyways - the package is just brakes.
Because the specific spindles and bearings aren't in any way related to the brakes?
Now you are being dismissive & obtuse!
The bearing was specifically developed due to the overheating problem the racers were having and the spindle was developed to support it. Once the improved bearings and spindle were available, the off the shelf calipers from the Corvette and the rotors from the Caprice could then be employed. It was not the other way around.
If you can find a copy of Camaro The Third Generation, it's worth reading. It was written early on, and the author interviewed and quoted many of the engineers behind the cars. The bulk of the first edition covers the initial development of the car. Several of the head scratchers are answered in the text.
The road goes both ways. I'm pretty sure I explained awhile back that I wasn't going to waste my time trying to change your bias. It's nothing personal, I just don't care.
There is half a page of rear lower control arms with different part numbers in the catalog. I'm not sure I can buy into GM formulating that many different rubber compositions. More on this to come when I have a few minutes to dig into it a bit more.
Ok, after sitting down with the P&I Catalog and looking a little closer, I have to correct myself. There are only three lower rear control arm numbers, the catalog goes from control arms to torq arms and back to control arms.
If I'm reading it right, 82-88 all got the same control arms (10000063). 88-92 without 1LE or FE2 use the same arms as 82-88 (10000063). 88-92 FE2 cars, including the B4C used a different part number (10081636), and finally the 91-92 1LE cars without B4C got a third part number (10164151).
Three different bushings is easier to believe.
Also interesting the bolt in brace (GM #10000087) is listed for 83-86, but doesn't come up anywhere 87-92. This is the bracket I consider of dubious value. Theoretically I could see it reinforcing the control arm, but then if it was of value, why didn't GM keep using it?
You get that 1LE spindles are just stock spindles with the caliper mounts cut off, right? And that those bearings were just off the shelf Caprice parts that had been around since the 70's, necessary to adapt an off the shelf Caprice rotor to the Camaro spindle?
Which is the most simple explanation, they upgraded the bearings and it unlocked a brake upgrade possibility, or that they wanted to upgrade the brakes and using Caprice bearings was just the easiest, cheapest, way to get to a larger rotor?
Yeah man, if I had a penny for every time I've heard about thirdgen bearing failures, I'd be a rich man. Sure hear a lot more about the inadequate bearings than you ever hear about the poor brakes.
You get that 1LE spindles are just stock spindles with the caliper mounts cut off, right? And that those bearings were just off the shelf Caprice parts that had been around since the 70's, necessary to adapt an off the shelf Caprice rotor to the Camaro spindle?
Which is the most simple explanation, they upgraded the bearings and it unlocked a brake upgrade possibility, or that they wanted to upgrade the brakes and using Caprice bearings was just the easiest, cheapest, way to get to a larger rotor?
Yeah man, if I had a penny for every time I've heard about thirdgen bearing failures, I'd be a rich man. Sure hear a lot more about the inadequate bearings than you ever hear about the poor brakes.
Seriously man, build a bridge and get over it.
But Drew, I thought you didn't care? We know where you stand, this wasn't for you. But don't let me stop you from continuing to put your spin on the 1LE program. Realize however that the market has spoken and history has left you behind.
I think you're confused. If you choose to believe fairy tales about race inspired wheel bearings, that were standard off the shelf hardware, at least half a decade before a thirdgen rolled off any assembly line, I couldn't care less. I don't need to change your opinion to sleep at night.
On the other hand, having been one of the two original moderators on this subforum, and a contributor to the forum for twenty years, I feel somewhat compelled to respond when someone starts posting unsubstantiated information - for the good of the community. Because when people post something as ridiculous as implying a wheel bearing, that resides inside a brake rotor, has nothing to do with brakes; it tends to take on legitimacy if it's not questioned.
I don't really expect you to comprehend the distinction between caring what you think, and caring about the inherent accuracy of the forum to the community. Especially since you've completely missed my point ever since I pointed out the article linked in the OP is questionable. So far all the documented facts support that the 1LE code signifies an upgraded brake package, and improved rear lower control arm bushings. That's a far cry from the long list in the article, and that is the point I was getting at in my first reply to this thread. You know, all the way back on page 1 before you started putting words in my mouth, twisting my words, and the scope of the topic.
As you can tell, I'm really broken up about the liquored up Hawaiian shirt clad a-holes at Barrett Jackson believing a popular myth and inflating the values of cars they'll never actually drive. Considering how I never said a thing about the market and have nothing for sale, that clearly must be very important to me.
Cool article on the SPO package...first I have seen. Also interesting and entertaining discussion.
I have not posted before but I just couldn't help myself on this one.
I have a 1991 Z28 1LE that I bought new. I really wanted a 1991/2 Firehawk but $39,995 was way out of my price range! So I called SLP (when they were in Toms River, NJ) and asked them if they would do a factory upgrade on a new Camaro If I could figure out how to get a dealer to order it. They told me about the SPO package and gave me the GM part number (no air intake mod on a camaro). Every dealer I went to thought I was crazy but I finally found a dealer in Blairsville, PA that said they could do it thanks to my buddy was friends with the guy who did the new car ordering.
I ordered it in late 1990 and it finally came in the second week of June 1991! I watched them take it off the truck. It has the full SPO package: headers, exhaust, siamesed cast intake runners, ECM recalibration (chip) and believe it or not Accel plug wires and looms (go figure).
The car is still 100% original and still looks and smells new. It has just under 7000 miles on it now and has never been out in the rain.
I can't say what was and was not supposed to be available but I have one sitting in the garage that I know all the details on for sure. I also can't believe that was 25 years ago already!
Seriously, talk about thread hi-jack haha! I subscribed just to see pics too!
I'd also like to see the dealership "supplemental" window sticker for the SLP Performance Package. I'd like to compare it to my dealers supplemental window sticker. Mine lacks a breakdown of individual parts and just lists the package. But I know since these were done by dealerships I'm sure they every single one is different.
Seriously, talk about thread hi-jack haha! I subscribed just to see pics too!
I'd also like to see the dealership "supplemental" window sticker for the SLP Performance Package. I'd like to compare it to my dealers supplemental window sticker. Mine lacks a breakdown of individual parts and just lists the package. But I know since these were done by dealerships I'm sure they every single one is different.
Alex
Any idea if ANY of those ''SUPPLEMENTAL'' window stickers may still be around. Even a reprint or a copy would be cool!
Thanks Chris. Beats mine by about $1,000. What I was looking for, is what a Dealer would have used to apply the SLP only equipment. Some Dealers had a Factory LOOKING sticker and then added what they applied at the Dealership. I was hoping somebody had what the Dealer actually priced this package at and make me a copy (I would pay for any costs).
The only thing I have seen from Dealer/SLP was the supplemental sticker for the Firehawks.
I didn't get the window sticker for my car with the dealer installed SLP package. So I don't know how it was handled.
I do have the order sheet with it on and added into the price tho.
I also have a order sheet from when I was going to order my 92 1LE with dealer installed SLP package .
Here are some pics. They charged me $1750 for the package. Since I ordered it there was no supplemental sticker since they never intended it to be on the lot. It's listed on the bill of sale paperwork as "SLP $1750" I'll have to find it and take some pictures of the paperwork.
Did SLP provide black headers or did you do that later? I've been curious what options SLP provided with coatings on their headers. Or did they all come raw - stainless steel?
Did SLP provide black headers or did you do that later? I've been curious what options SLP provided with coatings on their headers. Or did they all come raw - stainless steel?
The headers were not coated from SLP. When I considered what they wanted for their stainless steel headers vs the Edlebrock TES system, the SLP tubes were more than twice the price. Also working with Pontiac during the 80's and 90's, I was able to see the SLP tubes starting to get surface rust on them very quickly after installation. I found out that there was several grades of stainless steel and that they were prone to rust. I then decided to buy the Edlebrock TES and even having them coated in Silver inside and out, then were still cheaper. Now more than 20 years later, they still look like they came out of the wrapper with no trace of rust.
SLPs came bare stainless in the beginning, later they ceramic coated them. The stainless SLP used has a certain amount of carbon so they will surface rust a little bit.
The ceramic coating really helps reduce underhood temps a lot
I had my SS Tri-Ys for like 13 years, daily driving. They turned a sort-of-kinda-barely a rust colour on the surface a tiny bit but never like actual surface rust that you could really measure. Meanwhile my SS SLP exhaust still looks like the day it was unboxed. The colour that the headers turned was hardly enough to consider it rusty. Although on a mint car, I would have had them coated to stay the SS colour forever so I do see where people are coming from.
Mine were raw stainless and I haven't done anything to them. They have just darkened some over the years from the heat cycles on the 400 series stainless.
I've been saying for a while now that the dealer modified SLP cars will be the Berger & Baldwin Motion cars of this generation....that is once the market wakes up to them! Having the original documentation to these cars is the key of course.
Back to the original topic here - I drove my 90 non 1LE Formula last night really for the first time since I bought it and although the drive line is supposed to be identical to both of the 91 1LE's that I have, there is a night & day difference in the way they pull. Like Bruce Hawkins says, I can drive each of them blindfolded & tell you which is which.
SLPs came bare stainless in the beginning, later they ceramic coated them. The stainless SLP used has a certain amount of carbon so they will surface rust a little bit.
The ceramic coating really helps reduce underhood temps a lot
When the car went to SLP for outfitting or became equipped by the dealer prior to the sale, did they ever offer a ceramic coating? Or were all of these Stainless only? In other words, did the ceramic coated headers only exist in the aftermarket, where the owner would have installed himself?
When the car went to SLP for outfitting or became equipped by the dealer prior to the sale, did they ever offer a ceramic coating? Or were all of these Stainless only? In other words, did the ceramic coated headers only exist in the aftermarket, where the owner would have installed himself?
Can't answer your question since I was only aware of the RAW stainless headers. If you are considering adding a set of headers, make sure you get them coated INSIDE and OUT. A lot of companies now can offer a coating that looks just like chrome. Also have a company install them, IF they have done it in the past. THEY ARE A HUGE PIA, but once done, you will benefit from an engine that can really breath, compared with the heavy cast iron log design.
What power advantage did the N10 dual cat option yield on a stock L98?
Originally Posted by TTOP350
10hp
In theory... From the advertised numbers, the difference is 10hp, but GM or I should say Pontiac couldn't decide on an exact number. Just in 1991 documentation the rated HP varies from 235-245hp depending on where you look. Also frequently when discussing the dual cats as a selling feature, Pontiac claimed they were good for a 13% or 12.5% increase in power. I want to say somewhere I've even got a paper that lists the number at 15%.
Let's call it 10% just to make it simple. 10% of 230 is 23, 230 + 10% = 253... So the math doesn't add up. Knowing that the rated HP is more of a selling tactic than actual measurement, which also applies to the published benefits of dual converters, which do you trust?
Just from personal experience, dual cats make all the difference in the world. The 89-up cars with dual cats, are seat-of-the-pants faster than 82-88 cars, and 89-92 cars without dual cats. 10hp isn't going to make that much difference, 13% however, just might.
The dual cat issue is covered around the board here. I think the main advantage in 1989-1992 is the cats were inefficient. Seems I've read a single exhaust can handle plenty of horse power/volume, well beyond 245hp. But if you strap an inefficient cat in front and power robbing muffler in back, and iron manifolds that choke you at the start then the N10 probably not making much of a difference.
Maybe a better question for this thread, would be how much the dual cats helped the SLP exhaust system (headers, N10, bigger cat back and TOTL muffler) that was setup in a SLP car -vs- a stock factory N10 system with cast iron heads and factory muffler.
If nothing else the fact that the N10 exhaust has something resembling a Y-pipe instead of a T-junction like the single cat cars, it's going to work better.
I wouldn't consider the bulk of thirdgen cats to be that bad. Right off hand I can't think of any TPI cars that would have come with a pellet cat, they were all the honeycomb style just like the aftermarket "high flow" cats. Have to get back into the early years and smaller engines to get back to the bad cats.
Hot Rod May 1991 tested pretty much the entire 1991 Pontiac line up. They covered the 91 GTA 5.7L and a 91 GTA 5.7L with the SLP options, the entire SLP package added 50hp, went 4/10ths and about 3.5mph faster in the quarter.
The Super Chevy article would be more applicable if they'd started with a stock exhaust system instead of a cobbled together muffler shop system. Also the last time I looked, the Super Turbo system from Dynomax is 2.5", a step down from the stock system, or at least a lateral move.
Good luck with that... Honestly you might have to make them yourself... When I got my headers I remember the only thing I really needed was the bolts, they were a 12 point star type bolt, and since I got the 1 3/4" Headers I had to make a special tool to install a few of them, They were so close that a socket would not fit. You might be able to use Allen Screws with a washer, those are high strength and might make it a little easier install... I forget how much clearance there was in the holes for the headers for the bolts or if they were pretty tight or now... I would get Stainless Steel Personally.
I've just purchased a set of the slp headers. can anybody hook me up with the bolts, shields, ect?
I don't know if there old or new, but if you can get them coated, they will never rust or look like sheet. It also cuts down on the heat coming thru them. Even though the SLP headers were stainless steel, it is a poor grade and they will rust in time.
Mine were Ceramic coated from SLP... They look as good as the day I got them. Amazing really... I have taken many trips of 300 or more miles without an issue of changing color or rusting either. The Ceramic coating does help them cool faster which blows my mind...
The only thing I wish I would have done is not get the AIR tubes when I bought my Headers, as it would have cleaned it up a lot under the hood.
I don't know if there old or new, but if you can get them coated, they will never rust or look like sheet. It also cuts down on the heat coming thru them. Even though the SLP headers were stainless steel, it is a poor grade and they will rust in time.
\
Thanks they've been out for coating for a month now. Hope to get them back soon.
Does anybody know what the shield were for and in what location they were in?
Thanks they've been out for coating for a month now. Hope to get them back soon.
Does anybody know what the shield were for and in what location they were in?
What shield ? if you have a picture it would help.
From all of the hype and bickering, this is the most important fact regarding the 1LE program - these were cars the manufacturer built specifically to compete. Excerpt from the article on my 1990 TA:
"The Firebird 1LE performance package may have gone un-noticed to many people when it was introduced for the 1988 model year but it was a very significant moment for Pontiac - it was the first time that a factory race car had rolled out of the factory since Johnny Mauro's 1963 421 SD Catalina left Pontiac and headed to Pike's Peak. While cars had been built to satisfy various homologation requirements such as the 1969 Firebird Trans Am and the 1986 1/2 Grand Prix 2+2, the 1LE Firebirds were meant for track use."
05-14-2016, 05:17 PM
If you exam the hood hinge, it looks like somebody had to design that tab for it to support something (BUT WHAT) and if it was needed on some and not on others
Considering how I never said a thing about the market and have nothing for sale, that clearly must be very important to me. 
