Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

Ok. Here's the deal. My 2.8 winter beater isn't worth the scrap it's compiled of, so selling it isn't going to work. I figure that I should let her go out with a "bang"

I've got a turbo that I hocked off of an 85 thunderbird. I want to go fast before the motor blows itself up. So... assuming that I'm on an as-close-to-zero-dollar-as-possible budget, what's the minimum that I need to make this work reasonably well?

I've got the turbo, I've got the motor, I've got some 19lb/hr injectors from my 305, and I can weld up some custom headers.

Oh yeah, I've got a PROM burner and GME Pro, but I have no idea what's out there for 2.8 BINs and such.

Am I living in a pipe dream, or can I fab up something on a tight budget with the parts at my disposal?

Any opinions, ideas and flames would be welcome.

Guido

Do it! You dont even need custom headers.

Take you manifolds, turn them around, and make a y-pipe with a falnge on it and put it in front of the engine. There is plenty of room. Get a DSM intercooler (talon, laser, eclipse)... if you even want an intercooler. Get some 2 1/2" tubing from the exhaust place, or an old stock catback from your IROC, run that down to the stock passenger side routing.

instant single turbo 2.8.

Put an FMU on it in the return fuel line. You may want to think about an inline pump.

Hell there is enough room in front of the engine, you could about put a pipe straight from the turbo to the TB... its even round so no problems.... LOL put the MAF in the air inlet ducting. Gee wiz, this sounds like fun.... maybe I should do it to my sisters old 2.8 85 camaro.

LMAO

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

Cool.

I did a little digging, and it seems that FMUs are pretty darn cheap in the used car market.

Here's a question: How much is a rebuild kit for one of those t-bird T3s, and how do I know whether I need it? If I take the turbo apart, are there a tell-tale signs to look for?

Greasemonkey

You can check the turbo out with it still together. Check for play in the wheels. If the wheels move in and out or up and down a lot it probably needs rebuilt. I think you can get different kits for different things. If you just want new seals thats not too expensive, but if theres a lot of play you probably need a new cartridge, which is more expensive. I'm not sure on the actual costs, need to figure that out myself. HTH's.

89camaroRSV6

hey jim

from where are u gonna buy the FMU ??

keep us posted of what u do...

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

I looked on ebay, and FMUs and various intercoolers are pretty cheap.


I did a ten-second check on the turbo. It seems to spin freely and doesn't have any endplay.

Guido

Started on anything yet?

Want me to build it for you?

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

I haven't even had time to take the hair dryer apart yet. I'm still trying to get those damned speaker boxes done and out of my basement.

It's not likely that I'll get started on this until I've got at least 1 other reliable car to drive daily, which means that the snow (and salt) needs to be gone, and the GTA needs to get a couple things done to it.

Guido

Do youhave any good photos under the hood of your V6? Id like to see what it looks like on each side around the exhaust manifolds.

Camaro_hunter_d

I doubt that T-Bird will do much. Its made for 4 bangers.

Now I have a tripple k Mercedes that puts out 32 PSI. And it has an adjustable boost screw.

Greasemonkey

You sure? A 3000 lb Fairmont hit nines with two of them, and several Mustangs are running low tens with the same style setup. I think one would do a pretty good job of adding some performance to that 2.8.

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

None yet. There's a few pics floating around the V6 board of other 2.8s. The motor is quite narrow compared to a SBC, so there's a ton of room to work. Especially in front of it. :sillylol:

Camaro_hunter_d

I meant tearing up/damaging the motor. But it will add a quick 50-80 ponies. I am going to start on my Tripple K series turbo this weekend. I already bought the material for the mounting flanges 1/4 thick steel. I however DO NOT PLAN on boosting till it breaks untill I get the motor rebuilt and lower the compression. I think the max boost on those(rustang ones) is about 14-15 PSI. Mine will max at twice that. Though I do plan on building mine so that it will with stand around 19-20. Using a 2.8 short stroke crank and lower comp pistons, I am tring to get down to mid 7:1.

And Jim if you hate your V6 so much sell it or blow it up!. Just so we do not have to hear about it anymore.

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

What the hell are you talking about? Go away.

Greasemonkey

Camaro_hunter_d: Whats your point? I don't see how the turbo's being off a turbocoupe or whatever really makes a difference. Just because yours can make 30psi doesn't make that much of a difference when someone's not going to run that much boost. Besides, I like Jim's idea. If he has the parts he might as well try them out and do something that not many people do. I'm all for him turboing the 2.8. I've never seen it done before, and maybe him doing this would give hope to those with 2.8's that want more power. Anyway, thats all.

Camaro_hunter_d

Everytime you talk about your V6 you are bashing it. So just get rid of it. Hell I hope you shread the turbo on the first down shift...


Monkey, I am working on a turbo install onto my 3.1, But I do not have Jim's plans of doing it until it explodes either. I will run it at around 5-7 PSI till I can get the motor rebuilt(this summer) and lower the Compression and get some hardened parts in there to reinforce it so I can run even more PSI.

In fact I am starting the mounting fange and inlet tubes over the weekend. I am thinking maybe around 50-60 HP with 6-7 PSI...

SATURN5

Cam, Your missing the point..this is a "just for grins" project. not a "bash" of 2.8's..

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

When the hell have I ever bashed my 2.8? I think you're confusing me with somebody that gives a damn. The car is dog-assed slow and no pipe dream that any V6 owner has will change that without major modifications (like a TURBO perhaps!). My 2.8 has been rock-solid reliable and has provided me with trouble-free transportation for 3 years now. I think the car is fantastic for what it is. But it's not by any means a fast car.

The car has 162k miles on it and the body is falling off. The car is shot and isn't really even safe anymore (unibody is spent). The car is worth nothing to sell, and there aren't even any good parts that I could sell if I parted the car out. It's used up. What better way to end it than to do a turbo project and see what the motor can take? If I get good results, I can always pick up a cheap 2.8 car, rebuild the motor and go to the next level with the turbo. if it doesn't work out, I lost a few bucks and learned a ton. I don't see the negative here.

Guido

You know what is sad here... you have me thinking about doing this for you to get it done. lol
School ends for me in 5 weeks and I will have time to do it then. I have my sisters 85 2.8l sport coupe she never drives. Id about be willing to rig it up on there and send it to you to get it done.

Either get started on it or send me the turbo and let me do it! lol

Greasemonkey

Hey Guido, if you really want to do a turbo setup you could build me one.

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

I'll probably start to tinker in a couple weeks. Once I get these sub boxes out of my basement I'll take the turbo apart.

Right now my biggest challenge is the exhaust manifold issue. WIth the 2.8, I don't know if flipping the manifolds will work. With the offset middle cylinder, it may or may not just be as simple as switching sides and flipping the manifolds. If it's not that easy, this project is going to get too expensive.

Camaro_hunter_d

I will tell you that they CANNOT be flipped. So its all custom fab. Have fun.

Guido

You cant put the drivers side one backwardson the passenger side and vise versa? The heads are reversable Id think that you could do the same with the manifolds.

JMT dont have one in front of me to look at.

Guido

Bring me a turbo (s) and some pipe or what you want to do and Ill do it

89camaroRSV6

nope u cant with the manifolds...

camaro_hunter has another engine out in the yard and we have tried it ...

also he is custom making his own headers for his turbo....he has already done a pair ...

Guido

Here are some headers from a 2.8L V6. It sure looks to me like you could turn them forward. May run into some motor mount problems but wouldnt know without seeing it.



I need to do some more research. lol

Greasemonkey

I'll have to remember that. The turbo project won't get going for another year or two though. Gotta get the car to actually RUN first.
Those headers do look like they could be turned around.

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

From the pics of the headers, it looks like flipping them could work as long as the bolts line up. I guess I won't know until I try.

89camaroRSV6

HEY i just told ya we tried (me and camaro_hunter...) and u cant turn it around itll hit the motor mounts......and also couple of other things ...

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

HEY. Did you just turn them around, or did you turn them around and point them up instead of down? I can't see how in the hell they would hit the motor mounts if they're pointing up.

Camaro_hunter_d

Ok Jim try this go get a set of stock manifolds and put them side by side with the exhaust ports touching. You will then see that the middle port is off center by 2 inches in oppisite directions. If the center port had a centered exit point then yes you could simply "flip/switch sides". But they are not identical placements. I have a 2.8 sitting on a stand in my garage. I have also fabbed up a prelimenary set of V6 headers. Yes the outter ports line up fine, the centers however are far from it. Unlike V8 headers that are the same port distances on both sides 0-00-0 the v6 is 0--0-0 passanger side and 0-0--0 drivers. see the middle port mismatch? even if you did lay them upside down and backwards to get them to line up the exit point of the manifolds would be right into the firewall and hood.

Take my word on this one... They can't "be flipped", "turned around" or anything else. Headers are custom jobbies.

philoldsmobile

just to clear the matter up, it doesnt matter if the turbo has come of a mecedes or a t bird, if its a garret T-3 then its a garret T-3 if its a KKK then its a KKK, see what i mean, very few people make their own turbo's, so they go to people like Garret, KKK, RayJay etc. the only difference is what the boost is set to, that's done via the wastegate, and just involves a simple adjustment.

BTW, turbo diesels run the same turbo's as petrol engines, just watch out for clogged up turbine wheels with these from the sooty exhaust.

I'm working on a twin honda GX390 engined Kart, with a Honda CX650 bike turbo on it!

CrazyHawaiian

The turbo's that came in the Thunderbird TurboCoupes (or Mustang SVO's) were either the Garret T3 or the IHI T3. Jim do you know what year T-Bird the turbo came off? I can help you find specs on the turbo. Either version can support 22psi max and support about 230 cfm. Most people run them between 10 and 18 psi. If you want an intercooler I have a stock 85 Mustang SVO intercooler made for a Garret T3 that you can have if you pay for shipping. The stock design was top mount (junk!) so you'll probably want to fab front mount piping. Another option is to find a junkyard Volvo 740 intercooler. Supports about the same numbers as the stock intercooler but designed to be a front mount (bigger area for air to cool). I got mine for $70. Good luck!!

Greasemonkey

IIRC Jim had the .60/.63 T3 from the 5-speeds. Not really sure though, considering this post is from 9 months ago.

CrazyHawaiian

O wow didnt notice the dates.

True Power

Guido, your words WILL be remembered.

Expect some email from me sometime in the future

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

Geeze, I missed this one the first time around...

First thing, the turbo doesn't determine how much boost you'll see, it's the restriction that the turbo is blowing into. You do ultimatly hit a limit, and for most turbos this is in the 3-4 pressure ratio (30-45psig at sea level) range.

Second, using a shorter stroke crank does not lower compression... well, actually it does but not the right way and usually so severly that the engine won't run right and even if it does you'd loose so much quench that the engine would probably be more likely to ping.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

There shouldn't be much shaft play (there usually is a litte since the shaft is really suspended on oil when running). If you take the compressor housing off and find that there are no signs of contact you're usually fine.

Finally, a Garret 60 trim T3 (.60 or .48 AR exahust housing) will be fine on a 2.8, hell, it's not that much larger then the 2.3 that ford used them on, and the turbo used on the GN's are basically T3's whit a .60AR exhaust and an application specific compressor. A 60 trim will top out as high as 350hp at 20psi boost.

philoldsmobile

just a side note on turbocharging engines that were origionaly normaly aspirated,

with the 2 honda engines i plan to blow with one Honda CX650 turbo, I need to lower compression ratio to about 7.5:1, it requires an increase in deck height of about 40thou (1mm) a head gasket is about 10thou thick.

I am sending a head gasket to an engineering shop who are going to mill a plate 30 thou thick to the same pattern. this will then be sandwiched between two head gaskets. (plate, 30thou extra gasket between plate and head 10 thou = total increase in deck height, 40 thou)

This enables me to reduce the compresion ratio on an engine that has zero options when it comes to pistons or rods.

And yes, before you ask, the engineering shop is making a set of pushrods 40 thou longer as well.......

should be neat, put put put put put...tshhhhhhhhhhh!

Any sugestions for a dump valve??? maybe dihatsu charade GTti with a lighter spring??? (800cc triple)

SATURN5

Interesting.. couple questions.

1. why not port the combustion chamber to increase volume?

2. could the stock pistons be machined to lower compression?

cheers, Bob

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

Low compresssion does not equal detonation control. If you drop compression and significantly hurt quench the engine will be more detonation prone, not less, which is why no one builds blown engines by just adding a spacer shim between the head and block to lower compression and boost away. In most cases this will just give you mushy performance without/before boost and problems with detonation control with boost.

I supposed the combustion chamber and piston design effect this more then anything else. You could probably get away with it with a hemi/pent roof combustion chamber and a dished or possibly flat top piston, but not with anything that has any irregular shape.

philoldsmobile

wouldn't machiening the top of the piston have the same effect as spacing the head?

the net result is that you are moving the combustion chamber roof away from the piston crown.

Would leaving the compression the same and adding water injection while running lower boost (perhaps 3 - 4 psi) give good gains while preventing detonation.

The project is work funded, so i have still got lots to learn about turbo charging, coz i need to get it right.

philoldsmobile

i need to look into proting the heads, however the pistons in these engines are not particularly thick, being a single cylinder all recipricating components were made as loght as possible to eliminate vibration (no balance shafts) so i dont want to take metal away from them.

The only other problem i have come across (so far) is ignition timing...

I intend to give an engine to a turbo expert at a local tuning firm to seek his advice regarding lowering compression while maintaning good quench.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

No, spacing the head increases volume evenly across the cylinder, and in areas that were very close before you could end up with a pocket that would cause detonation. Milling a recess in the piston that matches the shape of the combustion chamber keeps things together and allows for more even combustion. For the most part you’re looking to keep the distance between any 2 random points in the pocket formed between the piston and combustion chamber at TDC as short as possible.

On most engines 3-4psi could probably be run with no real changes, just some tuning.

Power production is not really about boost, it’s about airflow, so anything that you do to get more airflow will get you more power. If you only need 3-4psi to get the air that you need to produce the power that you want into the engine, more power to you. The lower the boost the lower your efficiency (heat) losses will be.

Water injection mostly works because that water in the combustion chamber acts as an antidetonant. The end result is very similar to running higher octane fuel.

What are you trying to accomplish? Is an alternate fuel a possibility? If so, maybe consider running methanol, it’s fairly high octane and burns coolly so it is MUCH less detonation prone, you could run 20+psi boost in and engine that was detonation prone NA with normal gas.

Otherwise, I’d look into custom pistons, and possibly head work to optimize quench and still lower compression before I messed with spacers. What is the shape of the combustion chamber anyway?

philoldsmobile

the objective is increased torque right across the rev range, without resorting to expensive fuels, or two strokes. the engines will probably be running on LPG (propaine) which i believe has quite a high octaine rating.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

Geeze, if you're running it on propane why are you worried about it? With propane you can get away with NA compressions in the 16:1 range. Assuming that you're starting with a 'gas' engine, between the high octane and cooling (vaporizing propane comes out at somethign like -171F) converting to propane will let you run a bunch of boost...

philoldsmobile

That's gonna save me a load of hassle

The low temp of propaine is a pain in the butt with an air cooled engine, we have to run pre heaters to stop the regulators freezing up.

Thanks for your advise, I still have a lot to lern before i start the build, but i'm on my way.

Y2KFirehawk

Has there been any progress made on this project?

88 350 tpi formula

iTrader: (9)

ok, so what happened? it's been a long time

89JYturbo

You better be careful with that idea. Thats how my Z24 RMT system got started. Now, $5k and a lot of work later, it's a mid 12 second beater.

But boy is it ever fun.