NOSFEDGTA

I am looking for some help with a serious problem I am having with my new motor. Its been an ongoing thing for almost 8 months now and I still have no answers from anyone that I have talked to. Let me start by giving all the specs to my motor.

Motor: 383cid 4 bolt main, fully forged bottom end with 1 piece rear main.
Heads: AFR 190cc no egr, no heat riser, flowed 258int
Valvetrain: Crane Race Roller Lifters with link bar and matching Pushrods with Crane Energizer 1.6 Roller Rockers. Comp Cams Custom Cam. Lift---545int. 545exh. Dur@50 236int. 244exh. cam has 5 deg advance ground into it and installed at 108. So lobe sep is 113.
Iduction: Accel Pro Ram Single Plain with custom fuel rails and SX Regulator and 30lb SVO injectors. System was done by Force Fuel Injection “ Had SuperRam and Edelbrock Base 58mm Edelbrock T/B”
ECU: Stock Ecm With Custom Chip Done by David Emanuel from Random Technology//////// Also Haltech DFI “Will explain later”
Ignition: MSD Billett Dist, MSD 6A, Accel Coil, and Taylor 409 Pro Race Wire
Exhaust: Hooker Super Comp 1 ¾ Jet Hot Coated. Custom Y-Pipe into 3in Flowmaster.
Nitrous System: NX Wet system jetted for 175-250. Custom fuel system for NOS. 1 gallon fuel cell, Vortech T-rex fuel pump, Mallory regulator, and all stainless steel braided line from cell to fuel solenoid.

Ok so there is the run down on the motor. Now lets discuss the problem. My headers have been glowing for the last 8 months now and I have changed, tried, and done everything possible to make them stop. At first we thought it was a tuning issue. At the time I was running a Haltech E6GM DFI. No matter what we did with timing and fuel nothing worked. So I then turned back to the stock ECU and a custom chip. Thinking this might solve the problem and eliminate an improper tuned motor. Well that did not work and between the dyno time and parts it was a costly experience. I then Tried 3 different distributors and got nothing. We tried having 30-38 deg of total advance and it changed nothing. We also tried to run the motor pig rich and real lean and it changed nothing. Now at idle they do not glow, but rev it up and they glow like a coal on a grill. So now it was onto a Fuel Pressure problem we thought, but that was not it either. Now my first cam was also a custom grind and we thought that maybe the cam was ground wrong and when talking to comp cams they thought that maybe I was over scavenging the exhaust into the header. Thats were the new cam above cam into play. After installing it we found the same problem. So I then talked to my builder and we discussed a few things and he decided to have me take the motor out and bring it to him to put on his stand to check and try things. He is an old school guy so the first thing he said was well its in the fuel injection system. So at his shop we installed a single plain intake, another dist, and a Holly 750 carb. He was confident this was going to fix it. Well guess what it did absolutely nothing. We again tried the timing at many different points between 30-and 38 deg of total advance. We then tried changing jets, and nothing. Well now the builder knew what I was going through and decided to recheck a few things. After rechecking top dead center, the timing chain and the cam using a dial indicator we found all to be right on the money. So then we degreed the cam and found that it was actually 1.5 degrees off. So instead of being in at 108 it was in at 109.5. He put a 2 deg cam button in and brought it to 106 intake center line. We then rechecked everything again and then the dampner. Again everything was fine. I am using a CAT fluid Dampner just to let you know. We put it back together and checked timing and the jets again and fired it up. At idle no glow, rev it up to 3000-3500 and keep it there it glows like a S>O>B. We then ran it with a set of shorty headman headers with a y-pipe and no muffler. We went into the shop and turned all the lights off and ran it like that and we found that there was a blue flame coming out the end of the y-pipe that was steady. Now at idle it did not do this but again at 3000 and above it does it. We are now at a stand still and he still thinks the cam is not right and its still overscavenging in the exhaust. So he wants to try a cam that he has at the shop and I told him to hold off for now. The weird thing is how well the motor runs when all of this is happening. It never spits, sputters, and the idle quality is great. Motor runs great and made impressive dyno numbers. Motor with SuperRam made over 580 ftlbs and over 400hp at the flywheel N/A. So after 4 different dist, 2 fuel inj systems, 2 carbs, and many hours we are still nowhere. So if anyone has any ideas on this please let me know cause I have over 8k in this motor and cannot even run my car.TIA

Andrew
87 Trans Am GTA, 88 Trans AM

onebad82z

iTrader: (7)

How many times have I told you.....you should have built a Camaro!!!Just f***in wit ya drew!!

89ProchargedROC

somewhere, somehow you are getting too much fuel into the headers

from the heat of the headers and the unburned fuel they'll glow and in your case give you a steady flame at the y-pipe

there can be numerous different problems and you are going to have to change 1 at a time until you get it right

you guys did a lot of things i did and dont really know what else to tell you except that you are getting unburned fuel into the headers constantly and that is what is making them glow.....have to find out how though

i honestly dont understand why it cant be solved with tuning

Take the car to a shop with a chassis dyno with a wideband that knows how to TUNE FUEL INJECTION

a73camaro

Is the timing mark on the harmonic balancer in the right location? You said you degreed the cam so you might of checked this.

Find TDC on number one and compare that to the timing mark with the harmonic balancer.

Two things cause glowing headers. Lean conditions and/or retarded timing. But the numbers from the dyno say that you are hitting on all eight hard.

Do all the header tubes glow?

What do the plugs look like?

Does the glowing happen at 4500 RPM?

ATOMonkey

The heads you are using, is the 190 the combusion chamber size in cubic centimeters? If so that gives a static compression ration of 4.13 (383*2.54^3/8/190) That would result in very poor combustion which would lead to the fuel in the headers. I'd crank a ton of timing into it and see if it doesn't help. If this isn't the case then tell me I'm a moron. One more thing. Are those dyno numbers on the juice? The headers probably won't glow on the squeeze because of the improved combustion.

vortecfcar

190 is the size of the intake runner....they should be either 64 or 72 cc comb chambers


- Have you run the engine in the car, Ive heard people haveing problems like this running an engine on a stand and then once the engine is in the car and running there is no problem because of the air flow over the pipes.

-one more thing......are you sure the exhaust valves are closing all the way, too tight on the rocker arms could cause the flame front to get past the valve.

I know these ideas are a bit far fetched but it looks like youve tried everything

ATOMonkey

yeah, After I thought about that for a while I figured out that I am an idiot. Good call on the exhaust valves though. Hadn't thought of that. The exhaust system will cool in the car, but he shouldn't be chasing a flame out that far.

NOSFEDGTA

Thanks to all that replied. I am sorry for not posting sooner. I have not had a computer to use for a little while. I had the valves checked by my engine builder. I talked to judson massengill from SAM and he told me that if the headers are not glowing under load to not worry about it. I am going to put it back in the car this weekend and go back to the dyno.

The numbers were not on the juice, that was all motor. Now with my new cam and custom EFI setup I hope to put down 400hp and about 500ft. all motor....
thanx again for all that replied...

Andrew
87 Trans Am GTA
88 Trans Am

89gta383

iTrader: (5)

What is your compression ratio?

Glowing headers means unburned fuel.

Is the motor running rich?

Are you sure the cam was installed correctly? Comp usually grinds their cams to be installed with a 108 lobe centerline. Maybe they screwed up. Did you degree using the intake centerline and exhaust centerline method?

Kingtal0n

Why is everyone saying glowing headers means unburned fuel? Its a LEAN Condition (too much AIR not FUEL) that causes HEAT and causes glowing headers. When i changed my cam to a more conservative cam it brought my vaccume up above power-valve level which caused them to be shut all the time instead of open, this caused a LEAN CONDITION which caused GLOWING HEADERS- "red hot headers" Can are just AIR tht shouldnt be there. It can be caused by a sudden VACCUME LEAK somwhere, that stays shut at IDLE but not, say, at higher RPMS where vaccume is Geater, for instance your INTAKE manifold may not have a leak at idle, but spin the engine up, and suddenly there is a leak you never saw before, and its sucking all this air in causing a LEAN CONDITION which causes RED HOT HEADERS. The same goes for any part of the engine exposed to the outside where seals are an issue. If your intake is leaking, your probably also leaking compression. YOUR HORSEPOWER NUMBERS are good because you engine, WHILE RUNNING LEAN, Is running extremelly HOT, Which means more power. (Dont try to tell me you make more power running rich, its best to run rich under WOT I know, but the hotter the engine runs, the more power it makes.) Just because its not having a "Lean Surge" or "Lean MISS" doesnt mean its a fuel problem. If it getting the right amount of fuel, just way too much air, it will run super-well and super-lean.
For those of you who will disagree with me, I would experiement first. get your car idling at a perfect, slightly rich idle mixture using a STOICH Guage. Then while its idling, pull a big vaccume line, such as the one for your brakes. notice the engine makes more power at idle, and idle speed goes up, and there is no miss, the car will REV fine, but your super lean because your sucking so much air. the amount of fuel drawn in remains almost the same however, and you get "RED HOT HEADERS" Even though the car probably runs a better E.T. at this point, and you will punch a hole in your piston if your not carefull at higher RPMS.
In the case of Fuel injection, I assume you upgraded the injectors and rasied the fuel pressure and all that crap, but does your computer atomatically adjust the air/fuel ? I STRONGLY advise Connecting a STOICHIOMETRY GUAGE to at least one side of a header and see what your AIR/FUEL ratio is at. Alot of money says it doesnt even register, its so lean. If you dont have an O2 sensor simply add one. its worth the $40.00 for the guage and the $30.00 for the sensor to make sure your dead on Air/fuel. this can also assist in tuning later one, but for now, you need to know how much O2 your car is attempting to burn, and cant. Check for vaccume leaks, and just for good measure i would do a Leak-Down test to be sure your holding all that pressure. With new everything it should not leak much at all. If it does, somthing is screwed up.
Get an AIR/FUEL Guage hooked up and you will have your answers.

Kingtal0n

Just for good measure i thought of a couple other good examples. torches, for example, BURN hotter with more Oxygen. Everyone will agree his headers are getting HOTTER than they should, and since the more Oxygen present causes everything to be HOTTER, we all agree TOO MUCH AIR thats causeing his problem. Even propane torches demonstrate this well, the more oxygen you burn with a set amount of "fuel" (propane, Stargon, Asedyllene, how do u speel tha resht?) the hotter it gets. Why do propane tanks cut and heat metal better when you attach a bottle of oxygen? Because there isnt enough O2 in the air to burn super HOT. Add a tank of O2 which can inject into the mixture while burning, you get a hotter flame.
I rest my case.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Hey,

It actually works both ways, to be honest with you. Usually its because your're running lean.

Whats your O/2 sensor reporting?? Do you have an A/F meter?

Problem with large strokes is sometimes detonation is un-avoidable.

You check for vacume leaks and the sort? try restricting airflow ?

NOSFEDGTA

The engine is not lean trust me. We made it pig rich a few times and sill got nothing. When I had it in the car on the dyno the wide band was reading 11.4 which is way rich and it still did it. Now that we put the carb on it and rejetted it it was a little rich but nothing to wrry about. No Matter what we did they glowed. I checked the plugs and the were showing a litte rich, I then tried to lean it out and it still did nothing. I am putting it back in the car and going to a dyno and will be tunning it again with my dfi. I hope I can get this sorted out soon.

Now for the headers glowing and what causes it. Headers can glow from various things. Being lean is everyones first accusal. Then the timing can be off. Now lets look at the fact that if you have to much fuel "rich" now you have unburned fuel going into the exhaust and being reignited. Then you hae the possibility of overscavenging. So thats many things to look at. Ok say a vacum leak is the culprit then you have to much air and then its lean right?? most likely. Now on a motor stand you have no vacum lines, we checked the intake and everything else. the fact that we had a carb on it abd running it a bit rich it should not have glowed. Not to much tunning with a carb on a motor stand and no load. The plugs have never been on the lean side which is what I thought at first so I elminated that.

Comp Cams does grind all their cams a 108 but when we degreed it it showed to be in at 109.5 so hats why we put the cam button in and brought it to 106. not my idea though it was the builders.

The other thing is the fact that 3 proffesionals have looked at it and tried things and nothing no matter what changes. They will glow while reving it up, keeping it at 3,4,5,6,rmp and so on. This is wierd trust me I know I have been dealing with it for the last 9 months or so.

I will post some updates while at the dyno and let you guys no if anything is different. If anyone has any other ideas I am all ears trust me!!!!!!! Thanx again.

grumpygreaseape

tight valves-most motors will glow when stationary especially if pulling dyno runs have you checked your exhaust gas composition either with a 4 gas analyzer or thru an o2 sensor. if using a 4 gas, how much oxygen is left over from the combustion process, what is the CO number, let me know some #'s if you want and we can dissect just what is happening inside those combustion chambers. thanks, frank

NOSFEDGTA

I will try to get some numbers and let you know asap. thanx for the advice,hey who knows maybe I will get this taken care of sonner or later....

Thanx

Drew
87 Trans Am GTA
88 Trans AM

onebad82z

iTrader: (7)

Why don't you just sell that car and buy Phil's car and go just as fast????Come on Drew..think!!!