LS1 vs Procharger (please read before posting)
#1
COTM Editor (Retired)
Thread Starter
LS1 vs Procharger (please read before posting)
if you are going to respond by telling me to do a search, then do not respond. its not as though i haven't been racking my brain with this for months. there are endless points and counter points, and i need to have my own particular conversation, especially with those who have been there and done it.
I want to take my '89 Formula 350 to the next level. there are 37k miles on the car and 7k miles on the mildly built L98 (Fast Burn heads, ZZ4 cam....)
as far as the performance for this street car, the increase from the Procharger is significant, but the greatest potential is with the LS1. also, the gains from the Procharger are somewhat ambiguous by comparison. and i have never heard of anyone being disappointed with the results from an LS swap.
cost is somewhat of an issue because i wouldn't want this project to stall out.
even though i can get a running LS F-body donor car for under 4 Gs in my area, and the Procharger kit alone is about a $5,000 hit, i am fairly certain that the LS swap would cost considerably more in the end. one reason for this is that i do not tend to do things on the cheap. for example, the LS1 will need to be rebuilt, and i can't not upgrade the cam, and at least have some work done on the heads. then, if i pull that L98, i'm gonna want to paint the engine bay - and if i paint the engine bay, i'm gonna want to paint the whole car ($$$). but even without going into the paint, it seems that "swap parts" i.e. cross members, motor mounts, wiring harnesses - things like that - would soon add up to quite a bit more than a belt driven supercharger that installs in a few hours. and i can always do the LS thing on my '67.
am i on track with my thinking in regards to the hidden costs of doing an LS1 swap?
what would you guys do & why?
I want to take my '89 Formula 350 to the next level. there are 37k miles on the car and 7k miles on the mildly built L98 (Fast Burn heads, ZZ4 cam....)
as far as the performance for this street car, the increase from the Procharger is significant, but the greatest potential is with the LS1. also, the gains from the Procharger are somewhat ambiguous by comparison. and i have never heard of anyone being disappointed with the results from an LS swap.
cost is somewhat of an issue because i wouldn't want this project to stall out.
even though i can get a running LS F-body donor car for under 4 Gs in my area, and the Procharger kit alone is about a $5,000 hit, i am fairly certain that the LS swap would cost considerably more in the end. one reason for this is that i do not tend to do things on the cheap. for example, the LS1 will need to be rebuilt, and i can't not upgrade the cam, and at least have some work done on the heads. then, if i pull that L98, i'm gonna want to paint the engine bay - and if i paint the engine bay, i'm gonna want to paint the whole car ($$$). but even without going into the paint, it seems that "swap parts" i.e. cross members, motor mounts, wiring harnesses - things like that - would soon add up to quite a bit more than a belt driven supercharger that installs in a few hours. and i can always do the LS thing on my '67.
am i on track with my thinking in regards to the hidden costs of doing an LS1 swap?
what would you guys do & why?
#2
Senior Member
Re: LS1 vs Procharger (please read before posting)
Don't buy a "kit" from -anybody-. Ill have just over 2500 in my "kit", when I have head unit rebuilt and finish piecing together the rest of the setup. Everything is brand new except the head unit and blower head pulleys.
#4
Senior Member
Re: LS1 vs Procharger (please read before posting)
Procharger
#6
TGO Supporter/Moderator
iTrader: (12)
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: SALEM, NH
Posts: 11,786
Likes: 0
Received 94 Likes
on
79 Posts
Car: '88 Formula, '94 Corvette, '95 Bird
Engine: LC9, LT1
Transmission: TKX, 4L60E
Axle/Gears: 3.42, 3.23
Re: LS1 vs Procharger (please read before posting)
I had a procharger for a little while. I think I sold it for $1500 or something to a forum member. Was a P1SC. They suck.
If you want to go blower, Vortech or torqstorm.
Personally, I'd do an LQ4 or LQ9 rather than the LS1. A stock LQ4 with a cam swap, and a blower will make 600+ hp. A LQ9 will make 500hp with cam and heads.
-- Joe
If you want to go blower, Vortech or torqstorm.
Personally, I'd do an LQ4 or LQ9 rather than the LS1. A stock LQ4 with a cam swap, and a blower will make 600+ hp. A LQ9 will make 500hp with cam and heads.
-- Joe
#7
COTM Editor (Retired)
Thread Starter
Re: LS1 vs Procharger (please read before posting)
thanks, Joe.
why do so many people seem to recommend a truck 5.3 over an F-body 5.7? is it simply due to cost? won't a similarly modded LS1 make more power than an LQ?
or are people assuming turbocharging and prefer the LQ for the iron block? whats the deal there?
just sayin, 'cause the LS1 comes with a whole car... (trans, ecu, everything...)
why do so many people seem to recommend a truck 5.3 over an F-body 5.7? is it simply due to cost? won't a similarly modded LS1 make more power than an LQ?
or are people assuming turbocharging and prefer the LQ for the iron block? whats the deal there?
just sayin, 'cause the LS1 comes with a whole car... (trans, ecu, everything...)
Trending Topics
#8
Re: LS1 vs Procharger (please read before posting)
If you are comparing a hot na ls1 build vs procharged 350, i would go blower alll day long
You'll make more power and cost wont all be that much different in the end once the ls1 is modded
A real good all motor ls1 stock cubes is 450-470 whp. Some forged internals big heads/single planes can make 500 whp but you need to turn upwards of 7500+ to see it
Procharged mild cam 350 will drive better than that super hot ls1
A well tuned 350 sbc can still achieve good fuel mileage. Ls1 typically seems to have abit better but it all depends. From my experience and close friends, real world results arent necessarily much better than modded sbc's. Power is power and it will consume fuel regardless
Truck 5.3 6.0 and even 4.8 are better bases for boost. They are stronger especially the later models with beefier rods
All motor wise, i would skip 4.8-5.3. 6.0 does make abit more power than ls1 with heads cam setups. Cubes help, the bigger bore helps
You'll make more power and cost wont all be that much different in the end once the ls1 is modded
A real good all motor ls1 stock cubes is 450-470 whp. Some forged internals big heads/single planes can make 500 whp but you need to turn upwards of 7500+ to see it
Procharged mild cam 350 will drive better than that super hot ls1
A well tuned 350 sbc can still achieve good fuel mileage. Ls1 typically seems to have abit better but it all depends. From my experience and close friends, real world results arent necessarily much better than modded sbc's. Power is power and it will consume fuel regardless
Truck 5.3 6.0 and even 4.8 are better bases for boost. They are stronger especially the later models with beefier rods
All motor wise, i would skip 4.8-5.3. 6.0 does make abit more power than ls1 with heads cam setups. Cubes help, the bigger bore helps
#9
TGO Supporter/Moderator
iTrader: (12)
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: SALEM, NH
Posts: 11,786
Likes: 0
Received 94 Likes
on
79 Posts
Car: '88 Formula, '94 Corvette, '95 Bird
Engine: LC9, LT1
Transmission: TKX, 4L60E
Axle/Gears: 3.42, 3.23
Re: LS1 vs Procharger (please read before posting)
thanks, Joe.
why do so many people seem to recommend a truck 5.3 over an F-body 5.7? is it simply due to cost? won't a similarly modded LS1 make more power than an LQ?
or are people assuming turbocharging and prefer the LQ for the iron block? whats the deal there?
just sayin, 'cause the LS1 comes with a whole car... (trans, ecu, everything...)
why do so many people seem to recommend a truck 5.3 over an F-body 5.7? is it simply due to cost? won't a similarly modded LS1 make more power than an LQ?
or are people assuming turbocharging and prefer the LQ for the iron block? whats the deal there?
just sayin, 'cause the LS1 comes with a whole car... (trans, ecu, everything...)
I don't know why people are recommending truck 5.3s.
LQ for the larger displacement.
I don't know anyone that builds actual LS1's. Everyone is doing 6.0s.
-- Joe
#11
COTM Editor (Retired)
Thread Starter
Re: LS1 vs Procharger (please read before posting)
yeah... maybe something to think about for my '67. although I had always envisioned something in the 376 ci range.
#12
TGO Supporter
iTrader: (5)
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: St. Augustine, FL
Posts: 1,852
Likes: 0
Received 12 Likes
on
11 Posts
Car: 89 GTA
Engine: 383
Transmission: 4L80E
Axle/Gears: 12 bolt-3.73
Re: LS1 vs Procharger (please read before posting)
If you are cheap like me, you always buy used parts. used blower kits are out there, just have to jump on it when they appear, same with turbo headers. if you piece it out correctly, you can get what you need for cheaper than buying that $5k kit, just have to NOT be in a hurry, as you have to wait for deals to appear. If you are impatient, then spend the money and buy new.
#13
COTM Editor (Retired)
Thread Starter
Re: LS1 vs Procharger (please read before posting)
I had a procharger for a little while. I think I sold it for $1500 or something to a forum member. Was a P1SC. They suck.
If you want to go blower, Vortech or torqstorm.
Personally, I'd do an LQ4 or LQ9 rather than the LS1. A stock LQ4 with a cam swap, and a blower will make 600+ hp. A LQ9 will make 500hp with cam and heads.
-- Joe
If you want to go blower, Vortech or torqstorm.
Personally, I'd do an LQ4 or LQ9 rather than the LS1. A stock LQ4 with a cam swap, and a blower will make 600+ hp. A LQ9 will make 500hp with cam and heads.
-- Joe
is it a quality issue? do they not make power as advertised?
#14
COTM Editor (Retired)
Thread Starter
Re: LS1 vs Procharger (please read before posting)
also, my engine should have a stockish 9.3:1 compression ratio.
i have heard (read) you say more than once that 8 or 9 psi doesnt make a noticeable power increase. P-1SC advertises 9-12 psi. can a stock engine handle 12 psi?
can my 7k mile engine with stock crank, scat rods/ARP bolts, hyp pistons handle 12 psi? not looking to create a time bomb.
i have heard (read) you say more than once that 8 or 9 psi doesnt make a noticeable power increase. P-1SC advertises 9-12 psi. can a stock engine handle 12 psi?
can my 7k mile engine with stock crank, scat rods/ARP bolts, hyp pistons handle 12 psi? not looking to create a time bomb.
#15
Re: LS1 vs Procharger (please read before posting)
also, my engine should have a stockish 9.3:1 compression ratio.
i have heard (read) you say more than once that 8 or 9 psi doesnt make a noticeable power increase. P-1SC advertises 9-12 psi. can a stock engine handle 12 psi?
can my 7k mile engine with stock crank, scat rods/ARP bolts, hyp pistons handle 12 psi? not looking to create a time bomb.
i have heard (read) you say more than once that 8 or 9 psi doesnt make a noticeable power increase. P-1SC advertises 9-12 psi. can a stock engine handle 12 psi?
can my 7k mile engine with stock crank, scat rods/ARP bolts, hyp pistons handle 12 psi? not looking to create a time bomb.
There was a guy on this forum that squeezed 10 second passes out of a 383 with a p1sc. Overspinning it hard but worked. I think its a good blower for a stockish mild motor
D1 is for 500-700 whp guys imo. I tuned a 383 d1 tpi car and it was a bad little rig. 550 whp and torque for days.
#16
TGO Supporter/Moderator
iTrader: (12)
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: SALEM, NH
Posts: 11,786
Likes: 0
Received 94 Likes
on
79 Posts
Car: '88 Formula, '94 Corvette, '95 Bird
Engine: LC9, LT1
Transmission: TKX, 4L60E
Axle/Gears: 3.42, 3.23
Re: LS1 vs Procharger (please read before posting)
What is the problem with P-1SC? is it that unit or is it Procharger in general? since my motor was not built for boost i was thinking P-1SC. also, Procharger is the only brand that makes kits for a TPI third gen.
is it a quality issue? do they not make power as advertised?
is it a quality issue? do they not make power as advertised?
The bracket mounting and belt tensioning system for Thirdgen is just a joke. But even if you fix that, you still have a garbage head unit that requires tons of intercooler to keep from detonating.
The D1SC is a better blower, but if you're gonna go centrifugal than get a Vortech.
-- Joe
-- Joe
#17
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 631
Likes: 0
Received 7 Likes
on
6 Posts
Car: 86' IROC
Engine: Supercharged 350
Transmission: T56
Axle/Gears: 3.45
Re: LS1 vs Procharger (please read before posting)
I just put a Vortech V3 Si on mine, probably under $2,300 for the whole install, less a FMIC though. Very happy with it sofar, and im only running 5 psi with the medium bypass valve spring. the price for the third gen procharger kits are obnoxious.
#18
COTM Editor (Retired)
Thread Starter
Re: LS1 vs Procharger (please read before posting)
When are you going to install an intercooler?
#19
TGO Supporter/Moderator
iTrader: (12)
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: SALEM, NH
Posts: 11,786
Likes: 0
Received 94 Likes
on
79 Posts
Car: '88 Formula, '94 Corvette, '95 Bird
Engine: LC9, LT1
Transmission: TKX, 4L60E
Axle/Gears: 3.42, 3.23
Re: LS1 vs Procharger (please read before posting)
He used the carb kit.
I made my own bracket to mount the blower on the passenger side.
You don't need an intercooler with a S-trim at low boost, heck, I ran one almost 14 psi without an IC. For my T-trim I'm running an air/water intercooler.
-- Joe
#20
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 631
Likes: 0
Received 7 Likes
on
6 Posts
Car: 86' IROC
Engine: Supercharged 350
Transmission: T56
Axle/Gears: 3.45
Re: LS1 vs Procharger (please read before posting)
I called shannon @ shannons engineering, I think it was $2050+75 shipping out the door. Its a entire "universal carbureted" V3 kit with straight discharge tube (Custom ordered), but you drill 4 holes lower and you can get it to clear the hood. If i had to do it over again, I wouldnt have drilled the bracket as low as i could have gone, I had to grind the alternator case a little more than i wanted, but it works and i havent had any issues yet. Also i had to run a 01 grand prix power steering pulley as mine wouldnt clear the P/S box. Theres a whole thread in this section on doing it. Ill probably run a front mount this winter when i can take the nose off and take my time with it, that and when i get some more cash flow. I wanna do a nice treadstone IC, and then run a 8 rib belt setup with a 7" crank and a 3" blower pulley
#21
Re: LS1 vs Procharger (please read before posting)
Are you still thinking LS or SBC?
He used the carb kit.
I made my own bracket to mount the blower on the passenger side.
You don't need an intercooler with a S-trim at low boost, heck, I ran one almost 14 psi without an IC. For my T-trim I'm running an air/water intercooler.
-- Joe
He used the carb kit.
I made my own bracket to mount the blower on the passenger side.
You don't need an intercooler with a S-trim at low boost, heck, I ran one almost 14 psi without an IC. For my T-trim I'm running an air/water intercooler.
-- Joe
#22
TGO Supporter/Moderator
iTrader: (12)
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: SALEM, NH
Posts: 11,786
Likes: 0
Received 94 Likes
on
79 Posts
Car: '88 Formula, '94 Corvette, '95 Bird
Engine: LC9, LT1
Transmission: TKX, 4L60E
Axle/Gears: 3.42, 3.23
Re: LS1 vs Procharger (please read before posting)
The V3-Si is 78% efficient, which is quite amazing.
Using the formula:
(PR0.28-1) x Tabs
On a 70 degree day, 9 psi would have an outlet temperature of 168 degrees.
On a Turbo, with an adiabatic efficiency of around 60%, that same boost pressure would generate 198 degrees. This is mainly due to the excess heat transfer from the exhaust turbine, and the fact that the impeller on a turbo is spinning 3 times as fast.
-- Joe
#24
Re: LS1 vs Procharger (please read before posting)
That doesnt account for heat soak and pump gas tune over time in a full 11-12 sec run. Engine bay will heat that blower and the intake air charge depending on filter location will never be ambient
Its your motor. 170+ on cast internals and pump gas is not my cup of tea
Its your motor. 170+ on cast internals and pump gas is not my cup of tea
#25
TGO Supporter/Moderator
iTrader: (12)
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: SALEM, NH
Posts: 11,786
Likes: 0
Received 94 Likes
on
79 Posts
Car: '88 Formula, '94 Corvette, '95 Bird
Engine: LC9, LT1
Transmission: TKX, 4L60E
Axle/Gears: 3.42, 3.23
Re: LS1 vs Procharger (please read before posting)
That doesnt account for heat soak and pump gas tune over time in a full 11-12 sec run. Engine bay will heat that blower and the intake air charge depending on filter location will never be ambient
Its your motor. 170+ on cast internals and pump gas is not my cup of tea
Its your motor. 170+ on cast internals and pump gas is not my cup of tea
I'm just saying, the majority of Vortech kits are not intercooled. Fbodies, vettes, GM trucks, fox bodies, we're talking 20+ years and not many reported problems.
Run 14+ psi on a stock rotating assembly without an intercooler, well that is a different story.
-- Joe
#26
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 631
Likes: 0
Received 7 Likes
on
6 Posts
Car: 86' IROC
Engine: Supercharged 350
Transmission: T56
Axle/Gears: 3.45
Re: LS1 vs Procharger (please read before posting)
Hypereutectic aluminum, What could go wrong? Its why im not running 10lbs out the box. a 383 short block is down the road. How far is anybodys guess
#28
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 631
Likes: 0
Received 7 Likes
on
6 Posts
Car: 86' IROC
Engine: Supercharged 350
Transmission: T56
Axle/Gears: 3.45
Re: LS1 vs Procharger (please read before posting)
Literally just had a brand new volvo come in this morning with a slightly dented intercooler that looks like it will fit in my grill perfect.
#29
Supreme Member
Re: LS1 vs Procharger (please read before posting)
Belt-driven devices cause additional wear and tear on the engine. It is possibly a negative impact to long-term reliability to add a supercharger to anything.
If you can swap in an engine with low miles, especially a modern version (perhaps 02+) this can be a positive impact to long-term reliability.
A turbocharger is a positive impact to drivability and economy, if done correctly. That and the transmission is where to put the $$ first. Figure $8000 in a turbo/trans upgrade, and $1000 in the engine. That way you buy a few $1000 engines and squeeze each for 50-150k (that is a potential 150k-500k miles daily driver at 480rwhp~ or so for $1000 per engine).
tips for the turbo setup
blankets, wrap, coatings, fabricated support brackets, rear or front mount configuration, oil-less cartridges, alternative intercooling, methanol/water injection, a wideband sensor places 3-5 feet from the turbines
Can easily exceed $6000 in materials for this shopping list. Expect to spend $2000 on a transmission as well. Engines are last to get upgrades, if you have anything leftover after this you can literally dump any amount into engine(s). Its just that stock performance on any boost is already more than most can find HP, even after spending quite a bit more than 1k on an engine. The power comes out of a compressor, and we can always spice up the fuel. That LS-1 reliability list has some 700WHP configurations using stock pistons and truck engines.
all of this is written from the perspective of limited funds. A supercharger spins and vibrates/jostles with the crankshaft of an engine as it spins on a level only a computer can understand. Sometimes it can ruin engine bearings, it is not something I will willingly strap to an engine unless there is some kind of sponsorship or a race to win to make a profit, due to limited space or rules. Ask yourself if there is a way to get all the benefits of a supercharger without the additional wear and tear on the engine: a turbocharger provides a proven(time/history has shown them to be reliable when quality parts are used and the system is operating correctly), more reliable alternative with none of the significant harmonic, and parasitic drawbacks of a belt system.
If you can swap in an engine with low miles, especially a modern version (perhaps 02+) this can be a positive impact to long-term reliability.
A turbocharger is a positive impact to drivability and economy, if done correctly. That and the transmission is where to put the $$ first. Figure $8000 in a turbo/trans upgrade, and $1000 in the engine. That way you buy a few $1000 engines and squeeze each for 50-150k (that is a potential 150k-500k miles daily driver at 480rwhp~ or so for $1000 per engine).
tips for the turbo setup
blankets, wrap, coatings, fabricated support brackets, rear or front mount configuration, oil-less cartridges, alternative intercooling, methanol/water injection, a wideband sensor places 3-5 feet from the turbines
Can easily exceed $6000 in materials for this shopping list. Expect to spend $2000 on a transmission as well. Engines are last to get upgrades, if you have anything leftover after this you can literally dump any amount into engine(s). Its just that stock performance on any boost is already more than most can find HP, even after spending quite a bit more than 1k on an engine. The power comes out of a compressor, and we can always spice up the fuel. That LS-1 reliability list has some 700WHP configurations using stock pistons and truck engines.
all of this is written from the perspective of limited funds. A supercharger spins and vibrates/jostles with the crankshaft of an engine as it spins on a level only a computer can understand. Sometimes it can ruin engine bearings, it is not something I will willingly strap to an engine unless there is some kind of sponsorship or a race to win to make a profit, due to limited space or rules. Ask yourself if there is a way to get all the benefits of a supercharger without the additional wear and tear on the engine: a turbocharger provides a proven(time/history has shown them to be reliable when quality parts are used and the system is operating correctly), more reliable alternative with none of the significant harmonic, and parasitic drawbacks of a belt system.
Last edited by Kingtal0n; 06-16-2016 at 02:13 PM.
#30
Senior Member
Re: LS1 vs Procharger (please read before posting)
Im curious as to how LSA's live so long with a belt driven supercharger strapped to it. Or an L67 3800 V6 (I do own one... 217000 miles. No bearing issues). Mercedes, GM, Ford, etc... all have sold cars with vibrating belt-driven blowers strapped to them. And they last. So I personally dont agree with the belt driven blower causing damage argument....
#31
TGO Supporter/Moderator
iTrader: (12)
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: SALEM, NH
Posts: 11,786
Likes: 0
Received 94 Likes
on
79 Posts
Car: '88 Formula, '94 Corvette, '95 Bird
Engine: LC9, LT1
Transmission: TKX, 4L60E
Axle/Gears: 3.42, 3.23
Re: LS1 vs Procharger (please read before posting)
Im curious as to how LSA's live so long with a belt driven supercharger strapped to it. Or an L67 3800 V6 (I do own one... 217000 miles. No bearing issues). Mercedes, GM, Ford, etc... all have sold cars with vibrating belt-driven blowers strapped to them. And they last. So I personally dont agree with the belt driven blower causing damage argument....
-- Joe
#32
Supreme Member
Re: LS1 vs Procharger (please read before posting)
Im curious as to how LSA's live so long with a belt driven supercharger strapped to it. Or an L67 3800 V6 (I do own one... 217000 miles. No bearing issues). Mercedes, GM, Ford, etc... all have sold cars with vibrating belt-driven blowers strapped to them. And they last. So I personally dont agree with the belt driven blower causing damage argument....
A little OEM style blower is nothing. Think of the large displacement engines with big blowers- larger than anything you find on OEM vehicles. The bigger the blower, the more likely it will take more power from the engine to drive -> the more stress related failure induced to the crankshaft snout. Some engines tolerate this better than others, but it is definitely an issue you see crop up when you build hundreds of blown engines of various sizes, the bearing start coming out of the 700WHP+ motors pretty torn up I hear. A turbo offers none of this wear/tear feature and provides the same service with an economical boost to pump efficiency of the engine, with the major drawbacks of potential system complexity/packaging. The tiny delay feature of a turbine can be diminished if you know what you are doing, it is not worth considering as a fault feature (the ability to monitor and control exhaust gas flow->boost response makes up for any delay in operation)
Specifically about LS engines,
"On a Turbo motor I can make 100 pulls and tear it down, and the bearing look cherry,
On a blown motor, you can do 100 pulls and tear it down and the main bearing look like they are beat,
because in my opinion, the belt is just beating the $@(*# out of them"
- 6:35
Last edited by Kingtal0n; 06-23-2016 at 05:27 PM.
#33
TGO Supporter/Moderator
iTrader: (12)
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: SALEM, NH
Posts: 11,786
Likes: 0
Received 94 Likes
on
79 Posts
Car: '88 Formula, '94 Corvette, '95 Bird
Engine: LC9, LT1
Transmission: TKX, 4L60E
Axle/Gears: 3.42, 3.23
Re: LS1 vs Procharger (please read before posting)
A little OEM style blower is nothing. Think of the large displacement engines with big blowers- larger than anything you find on OEM vehicles. The bigger the blower, the more likely it will take more power from the engine to drive -> the more stress related failure induced to the crankshaft snout. Some engines tolerate this better than others, but it is definitely an issue you see crop up when you build hundreds of blown engines of various sizes, the bearing start coming out of the 700WHP+ motors pretty torn up I hear. A turbo offers none of this wear/tear feature and provides the same service with an economical boost to pump efficiency of the engine.
Everything has pros and cons. Blowers don't become an issue with cranks and bearings until we're talking about 1500+ horsepower roots blowers. Even then, BBC crank snows and dual keyways are available. And realistically, the bearing load isn't any worse than the load of the flywheel turning the transmission. The rear being is beefier than the front for sure, but not enough to matter.
-- Joe
#34
Supreme Member
Re: LS1 vs Procharger (please read before posting)
Turbos destroy exhaust valves and guides, cook everything under the hood, and have the potential to explode filling the engine with metal.
Everything has pros and cons. Blowers don't become an issue with cranks and bearings until we're talking about 1500+ horsepower roots blowers. Even then, BBC crank snows and dual keyways are available. And realistically, the bearing load isn't any worse than the load of the flywheel turning the transmission. The rear being is beefier than the front for sure, but not enough to matter.
-- Joe
Everything has pros and cons. Blowers don't become an issue with cranks and bearings until we're talking about 1500+ horsepower roots blowers. Even then, BBC crank snows and dual keyways are available. And realistically, the bearing load isn't any worse than the load of the flywheel turning the transmission. The rear being is beefier than the front for sure, but not enough to matter.
-- Joe
Last edited by Kingtal0n; 06-23-2016 at 05:49 PM.
#35
TGO Supporter/Moderator
iTrader: (12)
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: SALEM, NH
Posts: 11,786
Likes: 0
Received 94 Likes
on
79 Posts
Car: '88 Formula, '94 Corvette, '95 Bird
Engine: LC9, LT1
Transmission: TKX, 4L60E
Axle/Gears: 3.42, 3.23
Re: LS1 vs Procharger (please read before posting)
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jimhenry.../#1baf8864691a
Which, states: " If anything, adding a turbocharger could produce worse gas mileage, not better."
Another article:
http://autoweek.com/article/car-news...s-trade-turbos
There is no doubt that OEM turbos, using cast iron manifolds on small displacement engines is reliable and work well. They make those little 1.6 and 2.0 engines act like bigger engines.
So you would think the OEM also puts turbos on their large displacement performance cars right? Nope.
1) Camaro ZL1
2) Dodge challenger SRT Hellcat
3) Audi S4
4) Cadillac CTS-v
5) Corvette
6) Jaguar f-type
7) Audi A6
8) Jaguar XJR
9) Roush Mustang
etc..
So basically the OEM is using turbos on small displacement low end vehicles, yet using superchargers on high end performance vehicles. And the turbos do work quite well on the small stuff. My sister has a new escape with the ecoboost and it almost drives like it has a 6 cylinder engine.
Guys with Vortech, Procharger, etc have had their combos together for 10+ years without issue.
I also noticed if you spend some time on yellowbullet or turbo forums, those guys seem to constantly have issues making their turbos run consistent. Lots of excuses, but generally speaking the turbo cars are less consistent and less predictable. Unless the OP has an OEM engineer willing to design a system for him, I suggest he goes with a off the shelf supercharger kit. Even the high end banks kits are temperamental.
Also FWIW I wasn't thinking strictly about the resistance to turning, but more concerned about frequencies introduced to the rotating engine by the harmonics of the blower, which could have unexpected consequences like a disrupted oil film character. If there was any way possible to avoid introducing those harmonics into my already excessively damped rotating system which already has a host of it's OWN vibration issues, for which countless hours have already been spent trying to make it vibrate in many ways less by those engineers, well I would find and use it.
The future isn't exhaust driven turbos, or belt driven superchargers anyway. It's electric driven turbo/centrifugal superchargers. Audi has pretty much pioneered this technology, and we've seen it very successful on the racetrack. 15-20% higher efficiency than exhaust driven turbos, with no lag, no exhaust back pressure, and no heat. Science is cool.
-- Joe
#36
Re: LS1 vs Procharger (please read before posting)
Comparing apples to oranges. A OEM engineered 2.0 liter turbo isn't quite the same as some guy building a camaro or corvette. Not for nothing, but if you've noticed the guys with the fast turbos on the forum seem to be either blowing up their combos or constantly tinkering with there stuff.
Guys with Vortech, Procharger, etc have had their combos together for 10+ years without issue.
Guys with Vortech, Procharger, etc have had their combos together for 10+ years without issue.
#38
Re: LS1 vs Procharger (please read before posting)
And new build is coming along slow. Got alot of parts, still need to buy alot of parts
#39
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 631
Likes: 0
Received 7 Likes
on
6 Posts
Car: 86' IROC
Engine: Supercharged 350
Transmission: T56
Axle/Gears: 3.45
Re: LS1 vs Procharger (please read before posting)
I dont agree with the blowers ruining crank bearings. Not that ive seen tons of race engines torn apart, but if a belt driven accessory is gonna ruin a crank journal then i would expect the serp belt to do the same thing. Now thats not to say that huge F1 blowers wont snap run into issues, but at 1K+ horsepower your probably gonna pin the crank before hand. I dont think my V3 is gonna cause me to eat crank bearings, nor do i think anyone expects to get to get 200K out of a performance engine. I feel turbos are on cars these days because their cheap. Mistubishi makes all the DSM, chrysler, and volvo turbo's, and boosting efficiency is the name of the game (Not to be confused with power) They all have a MPG criteria to meet. Me personally, I like the fact theres no hot piping, minimal exhaust restriction, and the power is right there when you bury that pedal.
#40
Re: LS1 vs Procharger (please read before posting)
Blowers are def harder on cranks. The big ones are. It takes alot of power to turn a big blower on big hp aps. Thats why guys get bbc snounts on cranks, you can snap the crank, which is putting load on front bearings.
Its why guys with turbos can go big power on stock bottom ends and live. You dont see huge blowers running with turbo cars on stock bottom end deals
You need a better quality crank and main caps for blowers vs comparable power turbo deals
Its why guys with turbos can go big power on stock bottom ends and live. You dont see huge blowers running with turbo cars on stock bottom end deals
You need a better quality crank and main caps for blowers vs comparable power turbo deals
#41
COTM Editor (Retired)
Thread Starter
Re: LS1 vs Procharger (please read before posting)
Great seeing all this debate here, and the advise is appreciated. Right now I am leaning L98 + Procharger, although I might step up to one of the "D" blowers if they're a better, more efficient unit - presumably I can still manage the boost at levels safe for my stock crank, hypereutectic pistons, and 9.3:1 compression.
Too much invested in this 7k mile L98 to just scrap it, plus I have a '67 roller that I can do the LS thing on.
That's how I'm leaning.
Too much invested in this 7k mile L98 to just scrap it, plus I have a '67 roller that I can do the LS thing on.
That's how I'm leaning.
#42
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 631
Likes: 0
Received 7 Likes
on
6 Posts
Car: 86' IROC
Engine: Supercharged 350
Transmission: T56
Axle/Gears: 3.45
Re: LS1 vs Procharger (please read before posting)
No doubt. I dont think a P1, D1, V1, V2, V3 or any small blower will give anyone issues on a street driven car though. *Knocks on wood* On a side note, I did the MPG on my car out last weekend, and im averaging 2.3 MPG better with the blower than when i was NA.
#44
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 631
Likes: 0
Received 7 Likes
on
6 Posts
Car: 86' IROC
Engine: Supercharged 350
Transmission: T56
Axle/Gears: 3.45
Re: LS1 vs Procharger (please read before posting)
Great seeing all this debate here, and the advise is appreciated. Right now I am leaning L98 + Procharger, although I might step up to one of the "D" blowers if they're a better, more efficient unit - presumably I can still manage the boost at levels safe for my stock crank, hypereutectic pistons, and 9.3:1 compression.
Too much invested in this 7k mile L98 to just scrap it, plus I have a '67 roller that I can do the LS thing on.
That's how I'm leaning.
Too much invested in this 7k mile L98 to just scrap it, plus I have a '67 roller that I can do the LS thing on.
That's how I'm leaning.
#45
TGO Supporter/Moderator
iTrader: (12)
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: SALEM, NH
Posts: 11,786
Likes: 0
Received 94 Likes
on
79 Posts
Car: '88 Formula, '94 Corvette, '95 Bird
Engine: LC9, LT1
Transmission: TKX, 4L60E
Axle/Gears: 3.42, 3.23
Re: LS1 vs Procharger (please read before posting)
Blowers are def harder on cranks. The big ones are. It takes alot of power to turn a big blower on big hp aps. Thats why guys get bbc snounts on cranks, you can snap the crank, which is putting load on front bearings.
Its why guys with turbos can go big power on stock bottom ends and live. You dont see huge blowers running with turbo cars on stock bottom end deals
You need a better quality crank and main caps for blowers vs comparable power turbo deals
Its why guys with turbos can go big power on stock bottom ends and live. You dont see huge blowers running with turbo cars on stock bottom end deals
You need a better quality crank and main caps for blowers vs comparable power turbo deals
A Vortech S or T trim, a procharger P1SC or D1, etc isn't going to cause any of that damage. I doubt even an F1 would.
The turbo and stock bottom end thing is a little misleading. The attitude on the turbo forums is to build as much power as possible with a Chinese turbo and a stock motor, cuz if it blows up they just buy another junkyard motor. And they blow them up all the time because the second it detonates, it doesn't care if it's a turbo or a blower, the piston comes apart.
Again, pros and cons to everything but he basically made it sound like the second you strap a blower to your car your crank is gonna call it quits. I ran a s-trim for years on a cast autozone crank with no issues.
-- Joe
#46
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 631
Likes: 0
Received 7 Likes
on
6 Posts
Car: 86' IROC
Engine: Supercharged 350
Transmission: T56
Axle/Gears: 3.45
Re: LS1 vs Procharger (please read before posting)
[QUOTE=anesthes;6052696 I ran a s-trim for years on a cast autozone crank with no issues.
-- Joe[/QUOTE]
Thats suprising. With or without the blower.
-- Joe[/QUOTE]
Thats suprising. With or without the blower.
#47
TGO Supporter/Moderator
iTrader: (12)
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: SALEM, NH
Posts: 11,786
Likes: 0
Received 94 Likes
on
79 Posts
Car: '88 Formula, '94 Corvette, '95 Bird
Engine: LC9, LT1
Transmission: TKX, 4L60E
Axle/Gears: 3.42, 3.23
Re: LS1 vs Procharger (please read before posting)
I was debating the LS swap for a while, but after realizing all the conversion stuff i needed, T56 conversion, new clutch, crossmember, control arms, Intake, LS1 accessories, new ignition pickup, that i would have been just as happy with what i have just superchargerd. Nothing wrong with a decently build SBC. I feel "kids" these days feel its LS swap or bust and it makes me kinda sad
An LSx motor will bolt to a SBC transmission, I think you just need an adapter for the crank flange as the spacing is different.
I think a 6.0 with the same supercharger will probably make more power and idle better than an SBC. The valve angle and port shape of SBC heads really isn't designed for port injection.
But with that said, I have an SBC in my thirdgen and both of my corvettes.
-- Joe
#48
TGO Supporter/Moderator
iTrader: (12)
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: SALEM, NH
Posts: 11,786
Likes: 0
Received 94 Likes
on
79 Posts
Car: '88 Formula, '94 Corvette, '95 Bird
Engine: LC9, LT1
Transmission: TKX, 4L60E
Axle/Gears: 3.42, 3.23
Re: LS1 vs Procharger (please read before posting)
The car was a manual trans too. I had forged TRW 2256 pistons, and pink rods.
I did eventually blow the car up, but not from bearing failure or crank failure, but from too small an injector, too much timing, etc. Car made over 560hp though.
This was well over a decade ago, before all the young kids joined the forum with their turbo builds. 560hp is slow now apparently. Although, I question exactly how well some of these thousand horsepower cars drive on the street. Then again, I'm getting old and I don't have patience for cranky idles, weird surges, loudness, etc.
-- Joe
I did eventually blow the car up, but not from bearing failure or crank failure, but from too small an injector, too much timing, etc. Car made over 560hp though.
This was well over a decade ago, before all the young kids joined the forum with their turbo builds. 560hp is slow now apparently. Although, I question exactly how well some of these thousand horsepower cars drive on the street. Then again, I'm getting old and I don't have patience for cranky idles, weird surges, loudness, etc.
-- Joe
#49
Re: LS1 vs Procharger (please read before posting)
The turbo and stock bottom end thing is a little misleading. The attitude on the turbo forums is to build as much power as possible with a Chinese turbo and a stock motor, cuz if it blows up they just buy another junkyard motor. And they blow them up all the time because the second it detonates, it doesn't care if it's a turbo or a blower, the piston comes apart.
And if you ran a blower for years, what kinda performance did you get out of it? Any track times or dyno figures? You arent one of those guys who bolt on the kit and drive around just to say they have a supercharged car and never actually use it?
#50
Re: LS1 vs Procharger (please read before posting)
The car was a manual trans too. I had forged TRW 2256 pistons, and pink rods.
I did eventually blow the car up, but not from bearing failure or crank failure, but from too small an injector, too much timing, etc. Car made over 560hp though.
This was well over a decade ago, before all the young kids joined the forum with their turbo builds. 560hp is slow now apparently. Although, I question exactly how well some of these thousand horsepower cars drive on the street. Then again, I'm getting old and I don't have patience for cranky idles, weird surges, loudness, etc.
-- Joe
I did eventually blow the car up, but not from bearing failure or crank failure, but from too small an injector, too much timing, etc. Car made over 560hp though.
This was well over a decade ago, before all the young kids joined the forum with their turbo builds. 560hp is slow now apparently. Although, I question exactly how well some of these thousand horsepower cars drive on the street. Then again, I'm getting old and I don't have patience for cranky idles, weird surges, loudness, etc.
-- Joe
And two of those 1000+ hp cars put on more miles on the street than half the members builds in this subforum... They drive just fine