Twin_Turbo

iTrader: (25)

I did mine on the inside and out, it matches a whole lot better that way

project89

iTrader: (1)

i rember reading the thread on that and everyone was doing the insides too

orr do u have pictures of ones just done on the outside?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Looks like good match to me

project89

iTrader: (1)

i agree matches pretty darn good
thanks

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Not sure, IMO they look way better on a Black car that way. I think a lightly tinted option might be better w/the Blue, with or w/out the amber maybe...

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

BTW Dave, your old stomping ground has an event tomorrow. We're thinking of heading down if it doesn't rain, but thunderstorms are being called for though...

project89

iTrader: (1)

any transmission guys here ?

out right now playing with the car decided to do some testing and my transbrake is engaging and holding but as i come up on the converter it suddenly starts to slip and car rolls forward


what should i be looking at

project89

iTrader: (1)

the transbrake did work on first try , and all i have to say holee ***

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Low clutch pack shimmed too loose (or is just junk).

Probably shimmed too loose, as I'm assuming you used alto red clutches...

-- Joe

project89

iTrader: (1)

yeah i used all good clutches and new steels threwout the trans , trans fluid still looks brand new , i prolly wont pull the trans till next month , if i dont get the brakes hot during the burnout i can launch at about 3,700 rpm


ill post up some stuff tonight but im having a ****ing blast with the car right now on a low boost pump gas tune , cant wait to crank her up and race gas and see what she does then , but that wont be tonight

t-top havoc

iTrader: (3)

Congratulations!!
I'll have a nice ice cold Coke & raise it in Salute to ya!

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

It simply wasn't shimmed properly.

The downside to using a transbrake is you need to have a machine shop where you can turn the drum and the steels to be just the right size. A loose reverse or first gear is not noticed on a street car, until you try to use it to hold against your forward 2nd/3rd.

You probably wouldn't have this problem on a 400hp car either, but when you're making over 500hp at 3000rpm, tolerances matter.


Glad you are having fun with the car. I have not touched mine in a few weeks. Went out a few times in the speed boat, but mainly have been working on the house.

-- Joe

project89

iTrader: (1)

thank you , looking over some data logs from passes now , ive either got a fuel system issue or im making more power then i think
my 85# injectors are showing
52% duty cycle at 5/6 psi @ 4900 with an afr of 12.5-12.7-1
air temps at intake are a cool 123* with 96* ambient temps

project89

iTrader: (1)

thanks joe and yeah im having a blast , now that i have a bit of motivation and a lil time to really get down to business if nothing is wrong with the fuel system , im an injector swap and turn the boost up upgrade away from hitting what i set out to do

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Are you doing both fuel and ignition with the ECU ?

I've been on and off exploring using both MAF and MAP, but rather than be RPM based like the OEM stuff, instead use MAF under 100kpa and then switch to MAP. I think I can tune out some of the goofy stuff that happens with speed density, including not having to use soo much AE.

I'm really pick about the way stuff runs. Even my 2012 GMC 6.0 has a little 'bump' once and a while that makes me cranky. (and no, it's not the a/c compressor cycling)

I do hope you end up keeping the car. I suspect you are about my age, and I honestly regret selling a number of projects I had. Some cars got sold complete, others parted out and used to supply other projects. But I really do regret getting rid of them. Now I just keep everything. I've got enough land that I can always build more garages.


-- Joe

project89

iTrader: (1)

im using map only, with rpm based accel/decell settings instead of tps/map based yes im doing ign control as well curently running about 22* total under boost

tuning this thing for cruising is a lil rough as with the cam and intake it doesnt make much vacum at all so not a whole big tunning window , i may be better off with maf for crusing and speed density for boost , i need to switch to manual brakes or something

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Hydroboost

project89

iTrader: (1)

manual steering unfortunatly so no pump to run the system with

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Put a smaller cam in it on a wider lsa

project89

iTrader: (1)

last thing i want to do is change cams , its making good power on the xe cam
if i were to change cams it would be to a solid roller , but thats not happening unless it becomes a necessity

project89

iTrader: (1)

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I ran Hydroboost for a couple years. Sold it to a forum member, and went with the mopar manual master. Works fine.

-- Joe

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

That's the problem. The OEM figured that out in the 90s when they started putting moth MAF and MAP sensors on cars.

When you run a 2 bar map sensor your resolution is pooched, and 3 bar is even worse. MAF at idle, part throttle, etc conditions is far superior. But blow through MAF is useless, so having both is a great solution.

In theory.

Orr - You are running the 411 PCM, and that's hybrid MAF/MAP out of the box isn't it ? Or are you running modified code that is MAP only?


-- Joe

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

No need for a solid for what you are doing

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I ran 3 bar map only. Maf is not needed

Vanilla Ice

That's a pretty easy setup if you can hack the PCM. You can actually have it on a table look up how you want it to pull based off load or anything else and do a slow blend from MAF to SD. I've seen it done before. Actually, I've run the code on my own car, just never implemented the SD to care.

I'd consider doing this on $8d eventually with my car if I ever saw a dip in cruising "performance."

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Project and I are running MS, so MAF/MAP, blend, etc is all built in. I'm playing with kpa blend rather than RPM blend.

I know it's also factory in the LSx PCM's, but I don't have any experience tuning those.

-- Joe

project89

iTrader: (1)

i know its not needed but if im going to spend the money i may just as well buy solid rollers instead of hyd roller lifters and be done with it , its one less part to buy for down the road and money saved in the end

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

To a degree on a turbo setup I'd agree with you.

On a n/a, or supercharged motor it's a huge benefit. That's why GM and many other OEM's do it that way.

But again, on a turbo you're probably in boost a lot more often, so the lack of range under 100kpa is irrelevant.

-- Joe

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Theres plenty of range in 3 bar 411. Still good range in code $59 for that matter
I dont see how na or supercharged makes a diff

Vanilla Ice

If 411 uses float values for Analog input reads, then there's NO need for anything else.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Hydraulic is a PITA. You are always fighting spring vs lifter collapse. The setup I have right now, the cam requires more spring pressure than the lifter mfg (howards) recommends using. You absolutely HAVE to do a running valve adjustment, or when your lifters pump up the valves will be too tight.

Boost also attempts to push the valve open, so you really need to make sure your springs have enough pressure to keep the valve seated.

-- Joe

project89

iTrader: (1)

i just rembered i have dual tables so i can have a pretty extensive 60-100 kpa table for idle/cruise and a nice big 101-250 kps table for boost

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

You have 5 volts. You are now reading 3 bars of pressure. The code interpolates between values.

So for example, the representation of 20kpa - 100kpa is .25 to 1.5 volts on the 3 bar map sensor, with only 6 data points.

On 1 bar, the same range is .5 volts to 5 volts with 21 data points to interpolate through.

Does it work? Sure.

On a n/a, or supercharged setup using a hybrid MAF/MAP combo you now have a dedicated sensor reporting 0-5 volts for operation under 100kpa. The MAF sensor (assuming a GM LSx) has 1,026 data points. The resolution is quite a bit better.

On a turbo app, you will probably spend more time in boost during part throttle and wouldn't have a benefit of more resolution while not in boost.
In fact, most turbo vehicles (OEM too) that I've been in were more of an on-off switch. Idle or boost, no real in between.

-- Joe

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Run morels or a limited travel comp and you dont have to worry about it

Love to see how anyone does a running preload adjustment on shaft rockers lol

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

All you are doing is tricking yourself. Sure you can have a 24x32 fuel table which looks great on screen, but you still have a lack of resolution in the sensor itself. It's not like a variable resistor (i.e, a TPS). It has set voltages it produces in 'steps' (I refer to them as data points).

If you had dual MAP sensors, a 1bar and a 2bar and used table switching it would be a little better.

This is the stuff that keeps me interested in the hobby. Any idiot can slap mail order parts together, but advanced controls, algorithms, etc keep me engaged.

-- Joe

project89

iTrader: (1)

u sure about that im pretty sure the ms sensor will read in .5 kpa increments

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I'm obviously missing something. Why ?

-- Joe

project89

iTrader: (1)

cause u have to keep the wrench and allen key on the moving rocker, u would never be able to set it with the engine running

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I'm not sure. I've only used GM sensors.

-- Joe

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I've never used them, so excuse my ignorance, but how does that differ from a polylock ?

I tighten the 5/8 nut until the tick goes away, go a 1/4 turn and hold the wrench while I tighten the allen.


-- Joe

project89

iTrader: (1)

polylocks are on the studs they dont move , on a shaft rocker u adjust them on the pushrod end
as seen here



versus ur std stud mount type rocker

project89

iTrader: (1)

just checked the stock ms map reads in 1 kpa increments, my car idles at roughly 62-67 kpa

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

You are making wayyy bigger deal about map resolution than needs to be

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

On a racey setup like mine i didnt see boost til mid 3000's rpm so 99% of my part throttle driving never went above 100 kpa. Never really had a need to, the 400 makes enough torque to get moving

My rear mount 305 was same way once i deleted cat. It simply was laggy enough that par throttle rarely saw boost. I never felt a difference running 3 bar vs 1 bar on those setups. Plenty of resolution to keep fueling stable and happy

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Did we miss anything regarding vids, or did you mean that datalog picture?

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Oh so the nut moves up and down. I never used shaft mount rockers so I had no idea. Never had a need for them I guess.


That's interesting. I've never used the onboard MAP sensor on the MS. I've always used a GM sensor.

-- Joe

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Tell that to GM, and all of the other OEM's that have been doing it this way since the 90s. I'm not trying to convince you personally to use blended maf/map, I was simply pointing out why I've been playing with it.

I'm somewhat surprised at your reasoning considering you are trained as an engineer. Even if your highly calibrated butt didn't "feel a difference", surely you should understand the logic even if you were not a software guy. Your statement of "plenty of resolution" shows that either you didn't understand what I posted, or simply you just want to argue everything I say.

When I was in school, we were taught about Tesla vs Edison in respect to engineering. Edison would spend countless hours and days trying to understand something through trials that Tesla would simply use an equation to solve on a chalk board. No doubt Edison was passionate, but he lacked the traditional engineering background to fully understand what he was doing. This also led to the saying "Correlation does not mean causation".




-- Joe

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Oh my goodness, is it really reaching the Edison vs Tesla debate now lol? Hey, let's also throw in Einstein vs Poincare, that is one of my favorite's, being Einstein was a plagiarist disguised as a patent clerk...

Joe you're accusing Justin of arguing everything you say, but the truth is you love all of this bickering more than most of us combined lol. I don't agree with either one of you, but in this case hey Justin is the only one that ran the numbers that would require that much data in terms of this argument, so what he is saying is clearly backed up and tangible...

Drac0nic

The sensor its self does NOT read in any increments per se. The reason for this is it's an analog device. The Analog to Digtal Converter it is connected to may read in .5 KPA increments or the ECU its self may be processing data in .5 KPA increments.

Why is this? Precision versus accuracy. It's a lot like any other measuring tool we have, say a bathroom scale. If you get on it and weigh yourself at 200.5 lbs and it shows a tenth of a pound increment, that means that you're anywhere from 200.45 to 200.55lbs. At the point you're less or more, the scale will indicate the lower or higher quantity. This is called quantization error.

Lets look at the transfer function of the sensor as per its data sheet (URL at bottom)

V out = VS x (0.00369 x P + 0.04)

Notice how it doesn't say anything about steps in it.


In our example if we have ~253,000 and divide it by 512 (9 bit binary) we get roughly .5 KPA. Checking the data sheet of the MC9S12 CPU in the MS2 we find it has a 10 bit ADC. This means that the code base its self is the bottleneck in terms of resolution as you're seeing less resolution than the actual hardware is capable of. Chances are they didn't care and found half a KPA to be more than accurate enough, or it's plausible they just didn't have the CPU horsepower to do the precision calcs.

Overall I'm inclined to agree with Orr89RocZ. We don't typically worry about emissions in many cases with our cars and are willing to make mild to moderate sacrifices in driveability. We are also using a fully custom tune which means we don't worry about tolerances in the system nearly as much because we're compensating for them and until recently (maybe even recently) we tend to use better feedback instrumentation like wide band O2s.

http://www.nxp.com/files/sensors/doc...et/MPX4250.pdf