noboostnogo

iTrader: (4)

I might be converting over to efi this winter and I've heard good things about ms3 but I'm looking for some feedback from u guys! This is for my 383 pt88 that I have a csu blow thru carb on now it runs fine but I won't to enhance my gas mileage andbe able to tune it a bit better since I now have a trans brake and I'm looking to get rid of the pt88 and go 76gts so whats ur opinion?

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

IMO, if additional features is the name of the game then I would go the Megasquirt, BS3 and XFI route, but if your just looking to control the basics then nothing beats GM code...

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

Old school or E-trans?
coolant fan(s)?
emissions?
evap can?
WBO2 sensor?

Megasquirt 3 is expensive for what it does. The later MS stuff kind of got out of control in terms of price vs benefits.

noboostnogo

iTrader: (4)

Yeeah I have an "old school trans no emission no evap none of that stuff and I do have the aem wideband and three cooling fans one for the transmission cooler and two for the rad.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

edit. I made a mistake on this. MS has support for TCC control by using a spare analog out.


For applications like a race car, stick car, boat, bike that needs fuel + spark, MS can be a cheap solution. When you couple all the "add ons", relay boards, etc it might be an expensive combination.

-- Joe

project89

iTrader: (1)

u dont need an ms3,

ms2 v3.0 with the msn extra code is all u need

ms3 plus the ms3x board is nice if u want to do sfi and individual timing per cyl with a cop setup

other then the sfi ms2 extra will do everything u need + more

noboostnogo

iTrader: (4)

i went and did some more reasearch on this and you were 100% right. As you mentioned i will be going with the ms2 v3.0 or even the 3.57? any major difference? i will buy the assembled unit and start by just controlling fuel to understand how it all works and eventually start controlling spark. It seems to be a reliable way of getting started without getting my hands too full with timing and fuel. I will use my 6al-2 dig. programmable to advance and retard timing as boost increases and eventually incorporate it all intot he ms.

project89

iTrader: (1)

talk to diyautotune and let them recomend on for ur setup.

personally i would get the ms2 v3.0 and order it setup for gm hei with ignition and fuel control and the latest msn extra 2 code.

the way the gm hei works u dont have to have the ecm control it right away just leave the bypass wire unhooked , the hei moudle has a built in 10* advance at 2,500 rpms so if u set the base timing to 12* it will advance to 22* on its own with the est disconected good enough for u to drive around and get a feel for tunning the fuel tables before u dive into the ignition tables.

once u get ur fuel tables close u can hook the est wire back up this allows the ms to have total ignition control and u can play with the tablles form there

just relized u have the msd box so yes thats another way to do it

noboostnogo

iTrader: (4)

yeah i have the msd with boost retard and laptop hookup, i aslo have the msd dizzy with magnetic pick up (VR) and i know the ms has capabilities for it. just a quick question as far as diy... goes, do i tell them my set up and they assemble it accordingly or is there "one fits it all" kinda box?

project89

iTrader: (1)

they can send u either the generic setup and u modify a few jumper wires for ur setup, or for a few extra bucks u tell them what u have and they will send it to u ready to go pout of the box.

if u feel comfortable soldering just get the generic off the shelf unit its very easy to setup for ur ignition, u would have to solder in like 2-3 jumper wires

i personally like building them because then u learn all the ins and outs of the system and i fu have any issues u kinow what every lil thing in the ms does

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I think for fbody applications that don't need emissions, with factory harnesses the microsquirt and D56 connector is a great option. I've been doing some research on this and have compiled together some information. Still need to do a little more digging but:

http://members.cisdi.com/~anesthes/p...om/megasquirt/

-- Joe

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

Nice write-up. I have to ask though, why chose the Micro? Don't get me wrong. I think the Micro is great and have considered it for motorcycles.

I think the MS 2 is the best bang for the buck and perfect for auto applications.
A better route would be to junk the MS 2 connector and wire the MS2 to the connector board you posted. Or if you are daring just look at the Delphi connector website and pick a new connector and mate and use ExpressPCB to make the jumper board.

The big turn off is no stepper IAC. I can't understand why they did that. All decent idle control uses a stepper these days.

Would the MS2 and connector board fit in a stock GM ECM?

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Cost and skill required. *anyone* can solder the 22 or so jumper wires required, drill a few case holes, and even wire up the IAC circuit. Not everyone can assemble a full blown MS 2. Buying one "assembled" is expensive. That is it. I'm trying to get people interested, even if at the end of the day they realize it's not for them and they go another route.

You are right, the full blown MS 2 is a better option but I wanted to show the most basic system that can be put together and directly "plug into" the OE harness. The micro has 4 analog outputs - so figure TCC, cooling fan, and maybe 2 more for 'whatever'. Some users might need a lot more.

The other thing to consider is injector driving, the Micro will NOT drive 8 low-z injectors. It will drive 8 high-z.

That is a possibility. I think the biggest problem with MS is the lack of understanding and the documentation is a little horrid. I wanted to put together a possible combo on the cheap. I think there is an unlimited number of possibilities and boards one can put together.

Epic fail huh? I said the same thing when I first read it..

It is only $10 to do the IAC stepper circuit, which really is nothing to solder together. All the hard work is in the IC. PWM Idle is not bad on the ford vehicles. The Micro *DOES* support IAC steppers, they just can't drive a 4 wire. What you do is jump iac1, iac2, iac_enable, and +5v off the J1 connector to your little stepper driver, then wire the 4 iac ouputs to your D56 connector.

I don't know. I imagine it would, unless some odd height issue prevented it.
I'll dig up the dimensional specs when I have time.

-- Joe

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

http://msextra.com/doc/general/microsquirtschems.html

That is good news that it can do a 4-wire stepper. I didn't think they had the code for the control. Someone wrote code to do it? Do you have a link?
I can't find the wires IAC1, IAC2. I can only find "idle". What schematic sheet are these on?

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

We might be having a communication issue. Let me rephrase.

I'm using the Microsquirt MODULE. It is very similar to the Microsquirt, however it has 4 analog inputs (not two), and it has the J1 header which has IAC control. (but not 4 wire). I'm not aware that the AMPLUG connector on a self-contained Microsquirt has access to the J1 header. I might be wrong.

http://msextra.com/doc/ms2extra/module.html

Look at pins 7 and 9.

Then, you need to complete this circuit:

http://members.cisdi.com/~anesthes/p...per_driver.png

Out of the UDN2916LB chip, pins 10 and 16 connect to pins 7 and 9 on the J1 header. (along with 5volt, the enable pin, etc).

You then have 4 outputs on the stepper circuit for both IAC motors.

The "stepper" kit is $10 for the IC and the few parts. You need to supply a board, which is another buck or two from radio shack.

On the schematic, I believe circuit 8, 9, 10. (PT5, PT6, PT7).

I think this schematic:

http://www.microsquirtmodule.com/mod_hardware.htm

Is correct for the "Module" version.


-- Joe

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

I compared the MS2 to the Microsquirt schematic in terms of the IAC1, IAC2 signals.

http://www.msextra.com/doc/general/ms2v3schems.html

On the MS 2 schematic the IAC1 and IAC2 have wires from the Microprocessor. These are pins 9 and 10.

http://msextra.com/doc/general/microsquirtschems.html

On the Microsquirt schematic the IAC1 and IAC2, pin 9 isn't even wired to the Microprocessor. How are you going to run a wire to that for the 4-wire stepper input? IAC2 on pin 10 is wired as AD7-1. The missing wire looks like a design flaw. Maybe they fixed it?

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Did you post this before or after I posted the other schematic?

I gotta head out, I'll be back in a few hours.

-- Joe

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

Yeah, you are right. I am surprised the Microsquirt assembled is wired different than the Microsquirt module version. Engineering flaw there. I guess I could solder a jumper wire to the Uproc pin 9.

It looks like the MS2 code is drop in for the microsquirt. I just don't get why they didn't squeeze the 4 wire IAC on the module version.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Ok I lied but I'm leaving in a minute

The "self contained" Microsquirt is designed for bikes, boats, and stuff like that. Cheap, small, water proof case, etc.

The "Module" is designed for guys like me that want to build something, and add onto it. If you look at DiyAutoTune.com their "plug and play" computers are all Microsquirt, because they can situate it in the case and add or remove components based on the OEM system they are replacing cheaply.

The board is $258 assembled.. can't beat that.

You should run MS-II/3.x "extra" in the Microsquirt module according to the powers that be.

I've compiled what I've learned thus far. I'm sure I'll be smarter in a week or two. I do realize why so many people don't like MS. It is NOT for everyone. Just understanding what you need to look for, to then need how it works is tough.

-- Joe

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

I like what you are doing here. It opened my eyes up to the Microsquirt Module. I might be better off getting that and making a PCB with the Harley connector and 4-wire IAC on it.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I like the fact that it is so adaptable. It can run anything. The tuning software is great, and the source code well documented and readable. It's very easy to add new functions to trigger things you need it to do.

The problem with it is it has a whole lot of options designed for a whole lot of different inputs and outputs. Most people want to plug an ECM in, and load up code ready to go for their car. Tuning a thirdgen with $8D is a walk in the park. Loading up a Megasquirt, then calibrating it for each sensor is a little more complex. I've found reading on the forums a lot of people struggle with that and don't understand it. I have a base "starter" configuration designed around the sensor ranges and outputs typically found on a thirdgen, which I will make some additional changes to and upload it to my site.

I think this makes it a little more welcoming for thirdgen folks.

It's not for everyone.

-- Joe

project89

iTrader: (1)

microsquirt moudle + slc oem wideband controller board is a very good deal.

link to slc oem wideband controller

http://www.14point7.com/SLC-OEM.php

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Woah. Nice! A few more jumper wires and you have abuilt in wideband controller in the ECM..

That would be cleaner than my LC1 zip tied to the frame rail...

-- Joe

project89

iTrader: (1)

yeah if i didnt get a great deal on a brand new aem eugo setup i would have bought a slc oem to install into my megasquirt 2 v3.0

technically u could add that to any ecm as long as u know were to pick up the 5v power from

project89

iTrader: (1)

ive been thinking about adding one of these as a standalone dash/logger in my iroc
http://www.14point7.com/iDash.php

even though my ms can log all the same stuff except g meters

it all dpends if i do a car pc in my iroc or not

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

I agree that the $8D is a walk in the park. I think that is why some around here don't want you guys adding boost code to it becuase it is then in direct competition with their $500 re-worked ecm they sell.

The MS stuff is good because it is reconfigurable. I want to put the Microsquirt on a 2 cyl motorcycle with a N-M tooth wheel, 2-bar MAP, WBO2. I would rather have the 730 ECM for it but there is no room and the ECM needs two ignition/coil outputs and missing tooth wheel detection.

As for Microsquirt making sense for most thirdgens. It is yes and no. If you don't own a fancy on-the-fly that actually works on the fly then the MS makes sense. Maybe it is just me, but I really like the 730 ECM because of all the extra inputs & outputs that the factory never used. I also like the $8D code design/algorithm. I have been playing with the 427 ECM / $0D code, but I still like the 730 for all the extra I/O. The 427 just barely has enough for water/alky, NOS, etc. The E-trans stuff is a must have for me now.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

The OEM SL2 looks ok, but I liked it a lot better years ago when it was $50 shipped for the WBO2 from them that you built yourself. I use that with the Bosch $50 WBO2 that you can find on sale sometimes. I think it was $90 for the controller, sensor, connector.

project89

iTrader: (1)

yup when i went out to put the turbo on pilsburys car and tune it he bought the 50$ controller with the sensor and harness for 100 or 125 bucks.

i dont recall the model name of it but it didnt have a built in display but it had 2 -0-5v outputs one for gauge and one for an ecm , and a simulated narowband output. was a really good deal.ill have to check the build thread i know we have pics of the unit and i think the link to the page it was on

now there stuff is just slightly cheaper then the aem eugo by about 10 bucks

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

I am confused. Does the non-Evk OEM version come with a +5V regulator? The schematic doesn't show one, but the picture of the module does.

EDIT: The OEM version does need an external +5v supply.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Well, I don't think that is really it. I think their is simply a lack of people that know how to hack the bytecode, and even less that are willing to do it.

A lot of people want to keep supporting the 'code59' route and that is fine.
If you understand the code and how to make logical changes and interact with the different inputs than you are golden. Most are not.

I don't think their is much debate to how well the stock $8D code works. The professionals at GM during the 1980s surely knew how to control the engine under varying circumstances, throttle followers, dfco, etc.

Here is my take on it. I've spent a long time looking at the '$8D hack', the $58 that was commented by Bruce, and reading patches. And for the most part I 'get it'. But frankly, it's difficult and time consuming for me to make serious logical changes.

For example, in MS a very quick change one could add:

(variables and functions previously defined)


if (!ICFAN && mat >= icfan_thresh) {

ICFAN =1; /* Enable IC fan status */
pullup(icfan_port); /* ground IC fan output pin */
}
if (ICFAN && mat < icfan_thresh) {

ICFAN = 0;
pulldown(icfan_port); /*Release IC fan */
}


This if of course assuming what you want to do isn't already available and simply a matter of 'tuning' it with the graphical software. So it's still DIY, just easier DIY.


I have not gone far enough yet to really speak on this, but from what I understand you can use logic level outputs/inputs to create an adapter, to expand your I/O if needed. It probably has the potential to nickle and dime you to death. For me, I need cooling fan, intercooler fan or pump (air/water), fuel pump. Some will want TCC lockup. That still leaves you with some I/O.


So for me, or guys like me, if I stick with stock stuff and hit a wall then I'm really at the mercy of guys who are making code changes and releasing those changes. Be it literal stock '730, or an EBL, or whatever the next thing is. With MS, at least I can make changes if I need to, the hardware is always available, and has room to grow and evolve.

Not for everyone.

-- Joe

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

Just to keep things straight. We start with this module:

http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/m...v22-p-381.html

and also buy this kit
http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/d...kit-p-457.html

and do this ckt on another board
http://www.diyautotune.com/diypnp/do...roto_area.html

using this software (3.0.3 or greater). This is 3.2.1
http://msextra.com/doc/ms2extra/upgrade.html#download
http://msextra.com/doc/ms2extra/file....1_release.zip

Then buy the Racetronix GM connector board and possibly the 14Point7 OEM SLC board. Then run jumper wires to both boards and install a 12v to 5v regulator for the OEM SLC. Also make a ckt board for the 4-wire stepper......PITA.

In my case, I have the motorcycle connector for the original ECM. I can make a PCB that this connector solders to and the Microsquirt module 2x26 pin head on it. I can also put a 12v to 5v regulator on it along with wiring and stand-offs for the OEM SLC and the 4-wire stepper ckt. Three of these boards are $60 and min order is 3.

Overall,
Microsquirt $250 + ship = approx $260
4-wire Stepper ckt $10
OEM SLC $75 shipped
ECM connector $15 shipped
5v regulator $2
PCB $60
-----
$422 -> This is why I love $50 GM 427_ECMs from the junkyard

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

Joe,
What model ECM are you targeting? Do you want the Ractronix board 1986-89 165 ECM or the 730 ECM?

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Yes, although the SLC is only if you don't have an expensive WB controller like I already have. (I think the LC1 was like $175).

I'm at $311.

MS $260
Stepper circ $10
ECM connector $30
PCB at radioshack $2
DB9 connector $1
Wires $8
--------------
$311

Now with the '730, I had absolutely no problem selling my '730 + v8 memcal for $150. Sometimes I see them go for more. So this is how I looked at it:

'730 ECM $150
Ostrich $175
ALDU1 cable $55
G1 memcal adapter $35
-----------------------
$415 - stock stuff, 2 cables

Or EBL $455 (including ECM).

I think (based on documentation and screen shots) EBl is the shiznit for an 'oem' based setup, and has tempted me. But I can't modify it, and it's not realtime. I almost bought the "you don't need realtime" until I had to fix a crank and idle issue on a new motor the other day. It would have taken a month without an emulator!

Again, MS is NOT for everyone. For guys that want to just open a GUI and increase/decrease values either stock stuff or EBL. If you can modify stock code like you, use stock stuff.

I've gotten to the point in my life where I'd rather just close the garage door and play with my horses than spend 5 hours trying to figure out why the "wideband 02 patch written by the dead guy" doesn't work or spend all day dreaming on the forum of how $8D "should work with a 2 bar map sensor" when only a handful of members can actually "make it work" and none of them want to.

If the MS doesn't work out, I'll just buy a big stuff 3 or something. But from spending a few days reading the source, playing with the GUI, and learning the circuits I think it will work just fine on my singleplane EFI, blown, manual trans, non-ac turd.

-- Joe

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

With the cheap and easy to use AVR controllers it is easier to just use one of those to exend I/O. You can program it in the C language. Change the Microsquirt to output a serial message to the AVR and use the other AVR outputs as I/O. Pretty simple using C.

Just because the Microsquirt is in C doesn't make it that much easier to program from what I know right now. Suppose I wanted to put in the serial output on an unused pin above. What ".c" file would it go into? How can I guarantee that in the middle of the serial message I don't get an interrupt that screws up the message? If I disable the interrupts then how do I know I didn't miss an ign ref pulse? Overall, where is the block diagram of the algorithm and the timing diagram? I think that is needed to make any usable C code changes.

oh yeah, doing GM assembly programming sucks no matter how you look at it. The really tough part with the $8D code is there are only a couple free RAM locations and the S_AUJP uses them already.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

The Ractronix doesn't look like a 730 ECM adapter. It sounds like you are retrofitting to a 730 ECM.

I am not a fan of the EBL. It looks like TunerPro is still used for tuning. Looks like 747 truck code that was 4K Bytes (yikes) with an add-on.

I think the microsquirt route is a good choice for your application.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Sorry, I'm using the Racetronix adapter as a '165 "replacement" system.

I'm not aware of a '730 adapter on the market.

Might not have been clear on that earlier. If running stock stuff, I'd repin to '730 (and have/was).

I have a lot of respect for Mark, but I'm a Tunercat fan. I've used both over the years, and TP has come a long way but if I have to tune a OE Delco I'd rather use Tunercat and datamaster. Just a preference

-- Joe

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

From memory, the 730 ECM connectors are one full 165 ECM connector and half of a 165 ECM connector. The keying is different. Maybe you could buy 2 Ractronics and cut one in half to adapt to the 730 ECM. Look into the keying and pins first, but this may be an option.

I respect Mark and I like TP. I just don't understand why anyone would want to pay $500 for the worst I/O and CPU power mid-1980's ECM with a piggy back module on it. The 730 ECM has all kinds of I/O and better processing power. If the designer just modified the code for the $8D there would be no need to put a piggyback module on it. Seems like marketing to me. I don't see anyone selling 1980's ATARI game machines with an Iphone strapped on the back. Doesn't make sense.

Couldn't you buy a V6 730 ECM for cheap, cut-off the ckt board part, clean the connector solder pads and solder to them where the pin sticks through the PCB? Seems like a better choice than the Racetronix if you already have 730 wiring.

EDIT: When I say cut-off the ckt board, I mean leave the part the connectors solder to. Cut it so it looks like the Racetronics ckt board.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

He sells a P4 version now, which probably addresses that concern.

http://www.dynamicefi.com/EBL_P4_Flash.php

Which I think is useful for the Cali guys who need smog pumps.


Yeah but I had a '88 harness on the floor, so I'll use that on the Firebird. The '730 harness I was using on the Z28 is worth more on ebay since everyone is afraid to repin their harness

-- Joe

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Hmm, how about the front lol...

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

I totally love it! Good laughs. I wonder if I can get that thing to fit under the dashboard.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Alright alright. we're losing track.

Back to Microsquirt.

-- Joe

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

OK....back to Microsquirt. There is a "_user.c" file that is defined for putting user defined functions. I don't know what rate(Hz) this fxn is called at but it talks about I/O going on and off. So that is a start for doing stuff for controlling major necessities like:
Coolant Fan
TCC
Water/Alky
N20

It looks like these pins can be used for other stuff:
ALT_INJ1 -
ALT_INJ2 -
PT6 use for IAC1
PT7 use for IAC2
PA0 - add Uprocessor ckt protection, Coolant Fan
SPAREADC1 - TCC
SPAREADC2 - Water/Alky
ACCEL LED - what is the point of this? -
WarmUp LED - what is the point of this? -
FIDL -

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

One plus for the Micro/Megasquirt is real spark rev limiting. GM fuel cut isn't good for boost and nitrous.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Electronics guys can't seem to help themself from making stuff "blink".. By default, if you don't change anything, they will blink.. (if you wire LED's to them).

Most guys use the ALED for fan control, warmup led for TCC control, etc.

They are just two of the four available analog grounds that are not used. (by something like fuel pump)

Which brings up an important topic. These are all GROUNDED circuits. I believe the OEM Delco ECM's have + switched relays for fan, fuel pump ? Or just fuel pump?

It should also be known that all those circuits have a max of 5AMP each. So again, we're running RELAYS not controlling fans or fuel pumps directly.

-- Joe

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

especially on batch fire!


Are you using windows or linux?

If you are using windows and have cygwin installed, just grab the build tools package. Copy the binaries, and gcc lib files and you'll be able to compile the latest
ms2/extra3.x

-- Joe

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

Your stock 165 ECM wiring harness already has the relays. The ECM wire to the coolant relay runs the ground side already so you are all set there. The only ECM wire that runs the power side is the fuel pump. I don't know why GM did that. Not big deal though.

Cut the small ECM wire to the fuel pump relay at the relay. Wire the small coolant fan +12V ign wire to the fuel pump relay wire.
Cut the fuel pump relay ground wire and connect the relay side to the ECM wire that is going to the ECM (now Microsquirt ECM).

EDIT: I am writing about the relay coil side, NOT the relay mechanical switch side.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

Dual boot with Fedora and XP. What is the command to compile? Make -makefile ?

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Well, assuming you have the cross compiler installed for that achitecture (m9s12x), just run 'make' in the build directory..


anesthes@homepc ~/megasquirt/ms2extra_3.2.1_release/ms2extra
$ make clean && make

(lots of stuff, last few lines on success being)


ms2_extra.elf ms2_extra.s19
/usr/bin/m9s12x-elf-nm ms2_extra.elf | sort > ms2_extra.map
make[1]: Leaving directory `/home/anesthes/megasquirt/ms2extra_3.2.1_release/ms2extra'


At work all our R&D stuff is on Linux, on home I'm using win7 with cygwin for a "unixlike" build environment. All I needed to do was:

Install cross compiler in /usr/bin
Install GCC spec files in /usr/lib/gcc-lib/
Install header files in /usr/m9s12x-elf

-- Joe

project89

iTrader: (1)

why build the latest msnextra 3.x.x when u can just download it, or are u going to try to add something to it?

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Modify functionality. This is not needed, just me and Junk talking about ease of making not only configuration changes, but logical functional changes to the code.

-- Joe