Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

GM used a positive trigger to the fuel pump relay coil for crash safety. In the event that the trigger wire from the ECM to the fuel pump relay was to be pinched and shorted to ground, using a positive trigger will ensure that the fuel pump relay is turned off, which will cause the fuel pump to shut down. If GM had used a negative trigger, than the fuel pump could be triggered to be on after a collision and add fuel to a fire, literally.

If I was to install an MS in a (GM) vehicle, I would use a transistor to change the output from negative to positive, to retain that safety feature.

______________________________

FWIW, I use an SLC_DIY (V1) for tuning other people's vehicles, it works great. I had planned to replace my LC-1 with the V2 of the SLC_DIY, but recently made a deal to trade my LC-1 for a PLX R-500, which I will use for now, and then sell once I take the car apart for the rebuild.

You really can't beat the price of the 14point7.com products, especially for the features they have. I used to have an LC-1 that I would use for tuning other vehicles, but then one day my serial to USB adapters decided to stop working with my laptop, so it was time to replace it with a WBO2 controller that had native USB, the bonus was that the SLC_DIY has a built in display, so I don't even need to have it connected to my laptop.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Probably just toss a relay inside the case, since I'll have extra BATT leads anyway.

Which actually begs another question - should the MS be powered on by the IGN wire, or should that turn a relay on powering up the MS from it's own dedicated ECM fuse/circuit..



Also, to make the code for the Micro and Module it's "make us". I didn't realize at first that the Micro and Module get separate s19 files from regular MS2 boards:


-rwxr-xr-x 1 anesthes None 301438 Aug 23 16:25 ms2_extra.s19
-rwxr-xr-x 1 anesthes None 301444 Aug 23 22:34 ms2_extra_us.s19

When you think about it (295k) that's kinda huge compared to the OE delco stuff.

-- Joe

project89

iTrader: (1)

i usually power the ms off the stock ecms keyed power wire, if installing the ms on a previously carbed car typically any circut that is hot in the run and crank positions is perfectly fine.

in my twin turbo iroc i opted to seperatly power my ms ecm and igntion coil off dedicated lines from the battery with relays and toggle switches

my primary fuel pump is also on a toggle/relay circut with the secondary pump controlled by one of the many programable outputs of the ms to come on under boost


what are u guys trying to add to the ms by redoingsome of the code there are a bunch of outputs that range from grounding to 5v or 12+

and the outputs that are used for grounding relays can be switched to a 5v or 12v + with a simple jumper wire and a resitor

the first 2 that come to mind are the fuel pump output and the fidle output
on my setup i use the fidle modified with a resitor and jumper wire to output 5 volts to control the ign moudles est bypass

i almost forgot somone asked if the ms ecu could be installed inside a factory ecm case , yes it can it fits right in with plenty of room to spare

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

Or that, I'm just into efficiency, and a transistor uses less current, than a relay, that would then be used to simply turn on a relay.


I was going to mention something about this, that to write the same functionality that the Delco ECMs use, in C++ would make the files absolutely HUGE, which is likely why GM used and stayed with the language they did, same on EPROM space, and/or allow for more code in the same space.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Well, I think your close.

So when my car was made, 1988, I was using my good old Commodore 64, with 64k of ram, of which only 32k was addressable from BASIC..

A couple years later, I got an Amiga with.. wait for it.. 512k!! Man that was expensive..

I think it was a matter of cost, limited processing, etc.

How does the OE Delco code deal with loop timing? How many loops/minute does it run ? I imagine the MS is non-blocking IO, but I have not read the whole thing end to end.

-- Joe

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

The pos supply on the fuel pump makes sense with your description. Don't forget the flyback diode if you use the transistor. This is a common mistake

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

The relay is the easiest way to go. You don't have to worry above flyback voltage of a transistor and installing a diode.
Yes, it is huge compared to GM. If you read the Microsquirt C code it is clearly written for functionality and not optimal for how the compiler generates the assembly. Note that the ISRs are written is assembly for effiiency. That is, you don't want to be in an ISR a long time because other ISRs are turned off.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I found another flaw in the Micro, although it might just be that I'm not smart enough.

I can't find an input that will decode a 4K (or any k for that matter) VSS.

-- Joe

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

Why less current? You need to ensure the transistor is saturated for all relays.

C++ with exceptions and other error handling makes the code large. If you programmed C++ in a slimmed down C sense with minimal OOP then the code is smaller. If the programmer actually looks at the assembly generated for the compiler they can write the C code such that the compiler does a good job at optimizing. Most programmers don't do this becuase they are accustomed to writing on a platform with Gigs of memory.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

Yes, MS still ignores the VSS and I have always thought this was a flaw in the code design. In your case it doesn't matter. Just use a buffer box like I do from an S10/Astro/etc or the Camaro buffer box.


In my case, I need VSS because the factory ECM reads the VSS and sends a serial message to a module that then sends a signal to the speedo. I will have to write that code for my application.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

Joe needs coolant fan control and TCC at a minimum. Therefore, the code change. I need a VSS input and convert to a serial message.

I don't see how you can properly jumper the IPS022G low side driver to make a high driver out of it and have it actually last. Just jumpering things like that running a relay is going to fail after a while. The flyback voltage will destroy the driver. Doing that is bad idea.
For you non-inductive EST bypass this may be fine depending on how and what you actually wired.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

Does the car have a mechanical speedo or eletctric?

If electric, read this

http://www.tbichips.com/drac/

EDIT: I forgot.......it would be a 4 pulse sensor not 40. You would need the camaro buffer box.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

The car has an electric VSS. I havea 4out box with 4 or 2K pulse. But is their an input on the Micro that can read that in?

Is it the same as a hall effect?

-- Joe

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I'm not worried about the speedo gauge, I want to log MPH. I can make the code changes, in fact, I found a patch on a forum but it's for the MS-III board which has a built in filter for VSS.

Google didn't find me anyone doing VSS with a MS2 board. (what the micro is).

I actually don't need TCC control as I'm manual, but I do need fan, and probably intercooler pump for my air-water IC.

-- Joe

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

The Micro simply doesn't use the VSS for the control algorithm. I think it is important for idle and accessory loads, but the Micro designers apparently don't think so.

The output is open collector if I remember correctly. That means it can be 5 or 12 volts depending on what you want it to be. This is from memory, I would have to look at my notes to verify this.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

That is why I said earlier the $8D has better drivability. Throttle follower, DFCO, stall saver stuff. Also would be nice to control converter lock up with some MPH thresholds as well for you guys with autos.

I think I can live without VSS logic, but I'd like it logged so I can see boost vs mph vs rpm.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

I think the 2K ppm output out of the camaro buffer box is open collector. So you need a pullup resistor to the high voltage (5 or 12v) on the Microsquirt. It is an easy add on with a single resistor. The spare Micro inputs have a filter on them. You can also do some filtering in the software.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

I just noticed that the schematics for the microsquirt module don't have ingition driver gates (IGBT). It looks like it can only driver logic level coils. The info page says it can drive normal coils. Am I missing something?

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

The module can only drive logic level, you are correct. If you are doing CNP, it's recommended to use ford's EDIS to control the coils I'm told.

-- Joe

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

In my case I need two coils. I am use LSx logic coils.
The bad part about EDIS is that you lose rev-limit unless you put a FET in the E-DIS power supply path and control it via the Microsquirt. It is kind of lame.
I have an E-DIS sitting in a box waiting for the day I get an LSx engine cheap.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

This is another option:

http://www.efisource.com/details.php?category=2&id=21

(they have a 6 and 8 coil version as well). A little pricey though, then again, if you can afford multiple coils, a crank trigger, etc..

-- Joe

project89

iTrader: (1)

u can read mph in the ms 2 and above u need to build a circut to convert the vss pulses to a 0-5 volt output, which is then fed into the ms on a spare input, then u add 2-3 lines to the tuner studio ini file and ur done

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Mint. Got a link to the circuit? I should have room on the board I got for the IAC driver.

Edit: I think I found it.



-- Joe

project89

iTrader: (1)

i have a diagram of the circut i belive i have it posted in pilsburys v6 3.4 turbo build thread, if not i have it somewere in my photobucket. ill see if i can find it and post it up for ya

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

I downloaded the MS2 version 3.2.1 code and the Linux build tool tarball. Installed the tools files and did a "make us". It created a new S19. I then modified ms2_extra_ign.c to see what I would get. The makefile compiled this file and linked it all to create a new S19.
I might try to add in some code to the "user_defined" function later.

I don't like the "us" shorthand. Micro-second uses this already. I don't know why the use it.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I'd think you could really include any source file for adding your code. You're still going to want to call your functions from wherever in the code you need to make a behavioral change.

I've found that, for most of the things I need to do I actually don't have to make code changes, but I'm sure eventually I'll find myself changing something. At least it's easy enough to do.

I was looking at the "FreeEMS" project yesterday. All GPL source code, hardware. Too bad it's not more popular. I'd tinker with it as well if I could actually buy a freaking ECM somewhere.

-- Joe

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

I looked at the FreeEMS last year. I can't figure out the website to find the schematics. If I don't like the architecture then it isn't worth using, but I can't even find that.
Do you have any links to the schematics or block diagram?

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

There in lies the problem.

It's based on a MCU architecture. The idea is for the user to design their own ECM around the processor.

-- Joe

project89

iTrader: (1)

iirc thats just the mods to make a input read 0-5 volts say for adding in a second wideband input.

the circut i was talking about convertes the vss pulses into a 0-5v signal to the ecm, the circut diagram seems to be missing from pilsburys build thread which leaves me to think i just had it hotlinked from somewere , but i will check my photobucket in a lil bit to see if i have it saved

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

When you say "convert the vss pulses to a 0-5 volt output", are you talking about VSS VR pulses or the square wave output from a GM buffer box as an input ?

The VR ignition input should be able to handle the VSS VR sensor.
If using a buffer box then just a voltage divider would work.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I'm confused too..

What is the actual output from the buffer box, as tied into a '165 ECM ?

-- Joe

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I've got the Micro in my hand. It literally is the size of a credit card.

Not sure if I want to solder the 50 pin header to the micro, and use a ribbon cable to the D56 connector, or just solder jumper wires...

-- Joe

project89

iTrader: (1)

im not sure what he buffer box actually output for a signal, its been aboiut 2 years since i looked into adding the vss to a ms for logging mph, when i was looking around i cam across a circut u had to build to do it, maybe the circut was actually just a buffer box ???? the diagram isnt in my photobucket and i tried looking around online for it and now i cant find it

project89

iTrader: (1)

this might help
http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=35161

if im reading this right it takes the input directly from the sensor i.e no buffer box needed

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

That looks like a lot of work to read the VSS VR sensor. Why not just use any old GM EST HEI module to read the VSS VR and use the 0-5V output to the ECM?

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

There is a good thread on the DIY PROM talking about the 165 ECM $12 code.
They say it can do 1bar,2bar,3bar already.
It would run on a 165 ECM.

http://delcohacking.net/forums/viewt...hp?f=28&t=1089

It sounds like it is worth a look.

http://www.delcohacking.net/forums/v...php?f=27&t=356

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Yeah it's the aussie code modified from the '808. A kid I knew a long time ago ran it on his iroc.

I think the flash board is what $75 for the '165 so you can do realtime over the aldl, right?

I might pick one up to play with. I gotta find a '165 though.

-- Joe

noboostnogo

iTrader: (4)

Wow some great info here! Hopefully I can get some quick feedback I bought a ms2 v3 and I'm almost done assembling it to a basic stage what I want to do with it is start by just controlling fuel and then spark my question is this do I set it up for a hall sensor now and just get the tach signal from my current msd box just to get by or do I set it as vr for my magnetic pick up distributor andbe ready for the future? How hard is it going from hall to vr later in?

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

This is the Micro in a '747 case. It's wired as a direct replacement for a '165 ECM, assuming the MAF pins are being used for a MAP sensor.

I assembled the IAC board as well, and am searching for some standoffs so I can mount it and finish. I just need to splice in the D15 and load the firmware and it's ready to go.

http://members.cisdi.com/~anesthes/p...ms_jumpers.jpg

-- Joe

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

Figured I would throw this out there as another option.

Over at delcohacking.net they have the $12P code that would drop in a 165 ECM with only a couple wiring changes. It does up to 3 bar of boost.

Drac0nic

MS2/V3.0 user checking in here. IMO read the documentation before you go down this road to know what you're getting into. There's a lot of it, and as a bonus you will REALLY understand a great deal about EFI in general even if you don't go MS it will help you figuring out what you do want. There is a ton of documentation though.

I like the box, Tuner Studio is great and I definitely think that Extra code is the way to go. For some reason I had trouble with starting that went away when I swapped over to the Extra code. The key thing between going to MS2 and MS3 is that you aren't looking for a setup that works out of the box with a coil on plug or coil near plug ignition. You can make a CNP/COP configuration work with MS2 and have great success with it, but at the same time the MS3 makes it easy for a few extra bucks. I'm also doing 4L80E control with the Megashift, and am still way far out on figuring it out although I'm making progress. Some of the features of the Megashift are awesome, such as timing control per gear and retarding timing during shifts. This is really awesome if you're on the ragged edge with your tune and are trying to eek out every last ounce of power, or even if you're trying to retard timing in first for a bit of extra traction.

I am using an adapter board for an MS2 stuffed into a 1227747 box. I really should put some standoffs in, but haven't yet Got a DVD case in the bottom I cut up and it keeps it off the metal. Should be on the list though. DIYAutoTune sells these, at least they used to. You may need to repin a bit, but I like the board overall honestly. If I did another one of these into a GM vehicle I'd definitely be doing the board again. If you notice I also did the MAP as a "remote mount" setup. I really wish I would have taken the serial and put it out the front/rear face of the ECU as well as making a barb setup for the MAP line where I didn't route it inside of the box. That will probably be the next one, if there is a next one.

Lastly, considering I got banned from their community for asking a support question I'm going to say I don't really know if I would depend on their official forums for support. Thirdgen and other third party boards are a lot better of a bet. The instructions for the 4L80E controller I have are flat out terrible as in I haven't burned the box up yet but I've gotten it working DESPITE them. I'm talking wrong component values, component locations etc. I think someone caught wind of me saying this on another forum and got their feelings hurt over it. To that end I feel maybe some of my views above could come off as skewed or biased and I wanted to disclose fully if that is the case.

Drac0nic

Oh something I forgot to mention; If you have access to the code, and/or it's a changeable setting it's theoretically minimal work to set the MS up to use a stock style GM relay setup. They're using Q2 and Q19 as a Darlington pair, so you just sub out Q2 with a turn key Darlington pair and eliminate the 2N3904 Q19. After this, you take your Darlington pair and connect the collector straight to +12V. After this, you would take the emitter and hook up your fuel pump in series with it, disconnecting it from the ground. This will flip the logic 180 degrees (on is off and vice versa) so you'd need to set that up in the code. The only other thing you'd really have to do is connect the Zener at the emitter, that way there was still protection against a voltage spike hitting the emitter and destroying the transistor. It's been a long damn time though so take it with a grain of salt without testing

project89

iTrader: (1)

wow that fits right in the stock ecm case like it belongs there
u do know u can ditch the onboard map and just run an external sensor right

Drac0nic

I am aware. The reason why I haven't is that I am expecting to boost this combo eventually and all I have is 1 bars.

Something else I forgot to add is that the Fidle is already ran out to a pin for something like a fan control. That's what it's going to be used for on mine anyways

ED:

Something I forgot to mention is this has TCC, fuel pump relay, cranking relay (to lock/unlock the timing) and knock sense if you populate the board fully. I'm just using the fuel pump relay and the timing lock/unlock as of yet. I probably won't use the TCC at all since I have the Megashift to do that, leaving me the ability to control another aux output. As messy as it is I'm tempted to throw EGR back on in some ways. If done right I suspect I could see a couple MPG difference at cruise.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I went a slightly different route, I used the module and wired my own jumpers. Total cost was around $300. I'm using a 2-bar GM map. Fan control, fuel pump control, 4-wire stepper IAC with a few spare outputs/inputs. I'm not running an automatic, but I could do TCC control if I needed.

Do you have vss input in yours? I have not had the time to make a small frequency to voltage adapter so I'm not running VSS in the megasquirt yet. I'll probably do that in the spring so I can log MPH.

http://members.cisdi.com/~anesthes/p...om/megasquirt/


-- Joe

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

That's pretty sweet...

Drac0nic

That is an interesting setup, the thing I do like about it is it looks as if there would be enough room for my 14point7 wide band board (the "classic" one) where I don't have room in the case as of now. 300 seems about the same as what I paid for the mess, but either way is better than what I did before (tapped the lines I needed and had terminal strips mounted to the case.) I may do it if I go to a carbed car conversion but definitely not worth it.

VSS is handled by the Megashift. If you are looking to mod yours for the code I'd probably try to hijack their functions as a starting point. It works based on tire diameter, gear ratio and pulses per mile. They use a zero crossing circuit and take that signal and send it to an ADC on the Megashift, although I think a digital input would work too.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

Old thread but I found it interesting while looking for other information about MS

the problem with this is that it seems to be getting worse. I got one running in 2009 in my '87 formula and it was daunting (I'm not going to pretend that I'm as comfortable with all this as you guys are) but I did got it starting and idling in sort of the first try. The existing instructions available were spotty but worked and consistent.

I just put a second one in last june in my '87 TA, and honestly, I found the available instructions a nightmare. Here is a system that was originally designed to run a TPI car, and it wouldn't work correctly with the original instructions, there are multiple updates and mods now for things like making it work with the HEI, and none of the instructions are clear on if they work with the mods or not... I finally got it working well but ended up pulling bits and pieces from MS1, 2 and 3 instructions as well as other places and even figured out in one or 2 cases everything that I found was wrong.

(what has me even more annoyed about this is that I kept saying that I was going to figure out how I was going to document all this and life got in the way as it does and I never did... I don't remember some of what I changed on my board now to get it working. I know that I ended up reversing some of what was documented as needed to get it to work)

I started with burning chips for '299 (quickly converted to '747) in my TBI truck and '165 in my '87 Formula 350 (and assorted other projects). I wasn't thrilled with either but I got them to work OK. I eventually played with the '808 (i'm pretty sure I went back and forth with the kid you mentioned _a lot_ though I'm drawing a blank on the name) in the '165 with a 1, 2 and 3 bar map, and loved it. It and I seemed to get along, but it was pretty limited, not enough outputs to do everything, you even lost our TCC control, so I decided to move on.

Ended up repining for '730 and messing with that... I know you guys think it's a walk in the park, but wow, I just couldn't get it to work right, at all. I'm sure a lot of carbed guys would have been happy with how my **** ran but I had a lot of weird stuff happening, and it seemed like when I fixed one thing something else got worse. Since the only reason that I was doing this was to run boost I started looking at $58 and $59... I seemed to have less of a problem with these but the car seemed to be more clunky, I just didn't have the control I wanted (admittedly, the failings that I'm complaining about could be entirely me).

For some reason (I don't remember what that was now) I decided that I was going to try MS. To be honest the hardware documentation isn't there (and i'm not comfortable enough with electronics to just pick it up and run with it), but, especially with TunerStudio... I love tuning this thing. I feel like for the first time I have an interface that allows me to apply the theory in my head to running the engine without doing excessive translation to get the ecm to do it.

I did the board also, mine was one of the first ones and it had some issues, I wonder if more recent ones are better. I also machined some heatsinks, mostly to make myself feel better about things and they act to locate the MS board in the case and off the back of the case:


I don't think that info existed when I built mine... I went back and forth on if I was going to try to jumper it out on my current build and decided that I wasn't and then just this morning I found that I didn't need to (assuming my board works the same) and that I could possibly just pull the wiring out of the MAF part of my harness and put a MAP plug on it and use that (I did that in my previous 87 when I went from '165 to '730)... maybe I should do it... I'm pretty sure I have a 2 and 3 bar map sitting around, I'd need to find one.

I thought about that as well but couldn't figure out how to do it and still make it easily removable from the case

I wanted to but found that it wanted to sit so far down in the ECM case that I just cut a hole for it in the back:

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

I just realized that we're not talking about the same thing... I meant just using the onboard one as a reference and using a remote GM one in the engine bay through the adapter/harness

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I've learned a lot since I started playing with the MS stuff. At first I was very confused because most of my experience was with GM systems, and I wasn't sure what I was looking for.

The thing about MS most people don't realize is it's a system designed to run ANYTHING ON THE PLANET. People have trouble with it often because it has so many different combination of options that are typically hard coded in GM calibrations. (because why would you run a ford ignition or a ford maf on a GM ecm, right?).

I read the entire ms2 extra manual, and spent a lot of time on the ms forums. I've learned more about EFI by using the MS now than I knew the previous 10+ years playing with GM stuff. It's opened me up to the world of different types of sensors, ignition triggers, flex fuel sensors, boost controllers, table switching, table blending, hybrid maf/map, etc. Stuff I'd never have experience with if I had stayed playing with the stock GM stuff from the 80s.

The other problem with the MS is there is many hardware options. Frankly, I think for guys coming from GM EFI/TPI the Microsquirt MODULE is the best option and that's what I use on my own car. I've done a few MS2 (3.57 board) conversions now as well. The Microsquirt module is actually a bit friendlier and has better ignition logic.

http://members.cisdi.com/~anesthes/p...om/megasquirt/


That's why I like the guys @ diy autotune. Matt (buy his book!) is a great guy, and always has an answer to a hardware question. They have nice writeups like "How to megasquirt your TPI camaro" which is a lot easier that sifting through pages of MS documentation.

I wouldn't in a million years assemble a MS2 ECM. Let a professional do that. Again, to new members, if you are going to megasquirt your car buy an assembled MS2 or get a Microsquirt module and jumper the wires to a d56 connector.

I'm using an external 2-bar GM map sensor on mine.

Tunerstudio is amazing software, and it keeps getting better. (along with Ms2 extra firmware).

I've recently started looking into e-trans control, using a second MS (microsquirt v3 controller - $299). Both MS units will communicate using the CAN bus.

I'm not yet ready to jump on the MS3. If I was running full sequential or full CNP it would be worth it, but I'm not there yet.

-- Joe