dennisbernal91z

iTrader: (2)

I have a 388 SBC with a 12 rib F1. It has Trickflow heads. Nothing fancy. Pretty standard blower cam. I will get exact specs later. Standard 7.65" lower pulley and 4.25" blower pulley. Care was dynoed and with 18° timing and the BTM box pulling 2° for every psi, it made 455 RWHP and 477 RWTQ at 5 psi. I am shooting for 10-15 psi, at least 10 psi.

I called Procharger and they say the intercooler is too restrictive. I have a 4" thick, 32" x 18" intercooler with 3" ports. All tubing is 3".

Any advice at all would be really helpfull.

Thanks.

More details later on when I get home.

built91Z28

Any way to measure pressure on both sides of the intercooler?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Yeah measure before and after cooler and also check for boost leaks

tom86iroc

iTrader: (1)

belt slipping?

Eric89sc

iTrader: (1)

With that combo mine made 19 lbs without meth.

dennisbernal91z

iTrader: (2)

My dyno guy is saying there was no slippage. I forget to ask how he knew this. It is a 12 rib with the tensioner almost maxed out so I think it is really tight. With that said, the dyno graph is the only way to truley know. I will see the car tomorrow so I will ask then.

As for checking boost before and after the cooler, he said he is going to see if he can rig something up, but is not sure. I am using a cooler from CXRacing.com. I have seen a lot of guys running the cooler I am with great results. Still not a bad idea to check.

Next is the leaks. This my dyno guy does have a tester for. He is going to check it out tomorrow morning. He is very confident there is not one, but who knows. At least this will get rulled out.


The heads are Trickflow aluminum heads that flow:
0.100 64 56
0.200 138 105
0.300 198 146
0.400 237 171
0.500 257 186
0.600 258 196


Engine is a SBC with a 9.1:1 Comp ratio.

Cam is a 114 LSA, 0.540 intake 0.534 exh. duration @ 0.050: 236 int 244 exh. 110 intake centerline.

Dual plane intake, 650 CFM C&S areasol carb. (I think, I need to double check CFM).

Hooker long tubes into 4" mufflex Cat back. Spinteck 4" single hideaway tip muffler. Extreame velocity carb hat.

I think that is everything. What do you guys think now? Still a leak, slippage or crappy intercooler? Procharger tech guy says it is where is needs to be, rev it up to 5500 rpm, I should see 8 psi. Then throw a 3.40" pully on it, I should see 13 or so and 725 ball park RWHP. (rough ballpark).

Thoughts?

dennisbernal91z

iTrader: (2)

You had an F1 on on a 388 with Al heads, long tubes and a 4.25" blower pulley, with a similar cam and made 19psi?

Can you describe your setup in detail Eric? I want to call Procharger and my dyno guy tomorrow and see what they say about it, so we can figure out what is messed up.

Thanks.

Eric89sc

iTrader: (1)

My combo is a 357 with 9.6.1 compression with dart iron eagle pro heads 230cc. I have here same carb hat with a 850 csu carb on a victor jr intake. I had a total of 36 degrees with the Msd boot pulling a little over 1 out. I have hooker long tubes into a mufflex y pipe and just dumps. I the cam is my problem it's a 507/510 on a 110 Lsa.
I'm going to build a new one now so that's where I am.

vwdave

You need to run a pre and post intercooler pressure check.

tom86iroc

iTrader: (1)

another question how high did the dyno guy rev your car??

dennisbernal91z

iTrader: (2)

First Dyno pull was only to 4800 rpm. 18° of timing, with 2° pulled every psi.

Not to sound stupid, but I am bout sure if that is very conservative or not in terms of timing. This is my first boost application. Dyno guy says it is. It is running 93 at least. Dyno guy may have put something higher in it, I will figure out today on my lunch break.

vwdave

I wouldnt say very conservative. Depends on your entire setup really. Ive seen turbo guys lock their timing at 22-24.

freaky

i'm betting on a boost leak .
a tester is easy to make with some pvc pipe an a air compresser

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

No idea when you'd expect to see full boost on that setup but 4800 is very low rpm for that motor. I'd expect more boost as rpms go up but definately check again for leaks and intercooler restrictions.

18 deg at 4800 and only 4 psi is very conservative IMO. I'm still near 30 deg on my turbo car by 4psi. You can run almost full timing with the first few PSI then pull 1 deg or so per psi after that.

dennisbernal91z

iTrader: (2)

can you explain further, I'm not sure what you mean by running full timing and then pull timing

TwinTurboROC

The CX racing intercooler is usually good for around 500hp, after that it cannot go further. Check your IAT and see if there spiking up alot. We had a turbo car that ran to about 14-16 lbs of boost, then that IC went from doing 80 * iats to about 150 iat temps. It was around 500hp at the wheels. Remember every combo will run differently with those ICs. And yes I have seen the same CX ICs bring much lower PSI than what people expect.

Have you had the car setup without a IC, or was everything put together with the IC.

tom86iroc

iTrader: (1)

another question is your blow off valve opening under boost??

dennisbernal91z

iTrader: (2)

tom86iroc - I will ask the dyno guy that has the car now. I would guess that is something he would check, I am running a Procharger big red valve.

TwinTurboROC - I assembled the car right out of the gate with that intercooler. If we swap in a piece of straight pipe, we could test it without the IC and see what happens to boost levels. I just need to pick up a piece of straight pipe. Not a bad idea. If CX racing IC are only good to 500HP, what do people tend to run when they want to go past that? I would like a setup that is able to do 800 with no issue. I plan on tunning the car to around 700 RWHP if possible with this setup. The CX racing IC I have is one of thier biggest ones.

Any help is appreciated. Thanks.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

What I mean by run full timing is this:

Say in n/a mode, your car runs best with 34 deg timing at WOT. For boost tuning, we typically want to go 1 deg per 1 psi boost. So 4 psi would be 30 deg timing. But you dont always have to pull timing for the first few degs. Its not a lot of boost just yet and your trying to keep cylinder pressure up to help spool turbos.
I'd try to run 33-34 deg at 4psi boost and at 5 psi boost, maybe start pulling timing to 32 deg or so and then ramp down from there. 6psi would be back down to 28 deg or so which is 1 deg per 1 psi. So sometimes keeping timing up for the first few psi helps. Sometimes it may not. You have to play around and give motor what it wants.


For intercooler, the high priced ones are truly the best and you'll notice little pressure drop. I have not measured mine but it hasnt seemed to be a restriction so far and its rated to 1300 hp I believe. Its not ultra high priced but seems to be mid range and good bang for the buck. Treadstone Performance.

TwinTurboROC

You have to watch your IAC counts. I have never personally done a SC car with a ebay air to air IC. I know on the turbo cars that i have goofed with around 500hp at the wheels you will see heat spikes from your IAC. There are other factors involved, but a F1 is huffing alot more air to make the 500 at a lower psi. A few have gotten away with higher HP numbers around the 600 mark with the 4 inch core EBay one, but past that its a crap shoot.

gta324

I will see if I can find some notes on how much boost I had with 4.25" pulley.

But Spin it to 5.5k rpm, the F1 need some rpm to come alive.

I have a "cheap" ebay IC 3" on my car now and have prepared to log pressure before and after IC just to see how big restriction it is, also have a 3core from procharger that I will compre it too if the pressure drop is too big.

I had a 3.45" setup and saw around 15psi last year(se movie in sign) this year I have a bigger crank pulley and a bigger blower pulley to avoid slippage, also have a new bracket that will get me alot more belt wrap, but havent tested it yet............

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

^ thought you were going turbo?

gta324

Well maybe .....I keep my eyes open for 2 turbos...You know, house, kid, 2dogs takes some time and money.......car and more HP doesnt have the same priority like it used to....and the car is running now so no hurry on getting twins

To keep it on topic, sorry but havent found my notes on how much boost I got with diffrent pulleys..........

dennisbernal91z

iTrader: (2)

I installed the 3.40 inch pulley. The Dyno guy revved it to 5k. Car made 577 rwtq with 10 psi now. Said it had some definite belt slip. So maybe the conclusion is that the intercooler sort of sucks, but the car makes 600rwhp as it is. If I want more, I will upgrade the cooler. It is a street car I will drive to work, so for this summer I think I am done.

What do you guys think?

Tony89GTA

iTrader: (7)

The 3.40" pulley is going to be a bitch to stop from slipping if your using just the stock tensioner setup, I also have a 12 rib setup as well. I have a few tricks that could help a little.

Also 5k is nothing, you want boost you need to rev her up. Probably get another 5+ psi just going to 6k, hell I rev mine to 6500 on the stock shortblock all the time now lol!

gta324

You should see a more psi with 3.4, but you have plenty of power for a street car so enjoy the summer and fix the slip issue and IC change later

How much timing did you have at 10psi and 5k rpm?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

577 on 10 psi by 5K rpms is getting it done. Thats about where my 401 twin turbo was but in the mid lower 5000's.

vwdave

He can always get the pulley coated.

tom86iroc

iTrader: (1)

Dennis some good numbers there

dennisbernal91z

iTrader: (2)

Thanks for the compliments, :-)
The Dyno guy says he is going to put the bigger pulley back on and tune the car that way for now. He doesn't want to give me the car back with a belt slip issue.I will then take the car back Saturday and start the process of finding all the ways I can of making the 3.40" not slip. I think I will replace the tensioner pulley with a larger one. Also see if I can get more travel out of out. Finally, also see of I can design and fab some additional bracing, or but something, to help the head unit not flex.

If anyone has tips and tricks for getting the belt to wrap more, phase post them here. I am willing to try anything.

Thanks.

I will post final Dyno numbers with the 4.25" pulley tomorrow. I will also have a video of the Dyno pull!

gta324

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/fabr...r-bracket.html

Untamed Z

With a 7.65" crank pulley, you'll want to run the 64.5" belt with the 3.7 pulley.
With the 3.4, you'll need a 64" belt. If you plan on using both pulleys, you can go with the 64" belt. It will fit pretty snug with the 3.7 pulley, but will be just fine (per Procharger tech).

Untamed Z

+1

dennisbernal91z

iTrader: (2)

The 3.4 slipped too much so we took it off. I drove the car home with the 4.25". It makes something like 450 RWHP and 477 RWTQ with something like 4 or 5 psi.

I am not going to push the motor hard until I find a way to get the 3.40" pulley to not slip. I am thinking about getting a bigger tensioner pulley. That will take up some slack and give better wrap.

Thoughts?

I am going to call Procharger to see what they have to say as well.

Beater79TA

If belt slip is too much of an issue you could always call ASSC Racing and switch to a cog belt setup. He also sells a bracing kit to help eliminate flex on the brackets.

TransAmGTA88

Larry @ ASSC will get you on the right path as far as the belt slip issue goes. I attached some pics showing the different braces that you can put on.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Is the motor tuned at 4-5 psi on the larger pulley to redline rpm?

tom86iroc

iTrader: (1)

procharger sells the cogs to make a setup work on these cars just not the bracing you would need to stiffen the bracket i'm in the process of making the ones larry made I had called him he wanted 1500 for the cogs and stiffening brackets

dennisbernal91z

iTrader: (2)

yes the car is tuned to redline for 5 psi.

Damn, $1500 seems like a lot. Wonder how much the brackets alone cost. strange that there is no website to check them out.

Beater79TA

Here's the website...

http://www.asscracing.com/

No real info on any of the items you'd want though. The owner is very knowledgeable though and I've never had a problem with him not answering when I call. The bracket set is exactly what was posted in #36. A long threaded rod from the outside lower edge of the head unit back to middle of the header and an additional lower bracket near the crank. He also sells a timing cover and damper hub to strengthen the crank snout.

If you go cog on a street car, I'd also recommend an ATI sprag clutch pulley for the blower. The sprag clutch setup lets the blower spin down independent of the crank to reduce the chance of deceleration placing strain on the crank and blower.

If you go this route, expect to spend a couple grand before it's all done as the cog pulleys might interfere with the upper radiator hose and force you to build a custom radiator.

gta324

I saw 15psi at 5500rpm with minimal slip with a 3.4" pulley, 12rib setup and spring loaded tensioner.

dennisbernal91z

iTrader: (2)

Do you have pictures of your spring loaded tensioner?

I don't understand where it would go. Mine just moves up and down.

Did you have any other brackets to stabilize the head unit. Finally, what are you doing with your PCV system? Mine just vents to atmosphere.

If I can bolt on a spring loaded tensioner to my setup I would LOVE that.

Also does the standard SBC brackets for prochargers bolt into our cars with no issue?

I really just want to get this damn 3.40" pulley to install with no slippage. Please show pics of brackets and all. I am super new to SC.

What sort of IC were you running gta324? Is it a street car? I want to be able to drive this car to work and to car shows, thats pretty much it. I just want to not worry about slip ever, but don't want to go COG if I don't have it.

As for the clutch pulley, I could fit it now. I am running a curcle track rad with a -16 AN outlet on the passengerside. How much do think it would cost to convert to cog and that clutch pulley?

Sounds interesting, but I want to make sure the setup is easy on my components, I want to get a lot of miles out of this setup.

Thanks for any advice, I have a lot of learning to do. I just hope I haven't wasted too much money yet. The head unit is new, brackets are used, IC is from CXRacing and may be too crappy. Carb is a C&S.

Thanks again.

OH, what do you guys (making like 600-700 HP) idle at? Mine wants to be at like 1200 RPM once heated up. Seems high. I want to be around 800, over a grand is just to damn loud and the neighbors and complaining.

Beater79TA

The clutch pulley will likely not fit if the upper radiator hose connects to the radiator in the factory location regardless of the fitting used. There is less than an inch between the radiator and the front of that pulley. I think a -16 AN fitting is larger than that. The whole cog setup probably cost about $2000 but that includes the harmonic damper with a larger diameter where it goes over the crank snout, a timing cover to accommodate the larger hub, the cog pulleys and idlers and the first belt. The extra bracing is additional on top of that.

As for idle, mine idles at around 800 rpm but even at that speed, it makes enough noise to shake a 2 story house while it's idling in the garage. Do not ever underestimate how loud a cog driven F1A is. The 4 inch exhaust doesn't help with quiet either but that cog setup can be heard from almost a half mile on a still quiet night out where we test and tune on an abandoned street in the desert.

dennisbernal91z

iTrader: (2)

My -16 AN radiator outlet is on the passenger side, opposite the stock location. So I am not worried about clearance. I called Procharger and they said for $500 I could buy all the the pulleys I need. I found the clutch pulley for about $595.

do cog setups sound different than 12 rib? I don't want to make any more noise than I already do.

Beater79TA

Never ran mine with anything but the cog belt. All I know is this thing is loud. And that's loud enough to scare small children and animals and every ***** I've ever gotten near with it. I am completely serious when I tell you it can be heard from almost 1/2 a mile away on a quiet desert night away from the noise of the city or that it is loud enough to shake the entire house when it's idling in the garage. I am quite confident the car exceeds 110 decibels at throttle and is very likely near 100 at idle. I don't expect yours will be much quieter as the F1 has a volume all its own anyway. If you want to up the volume even further, add the Procharger race bypass valve to the mix. That alone added a decibel or two to the setup when I put it on. This thing is not stealthy when it's running and the cage gives away a little of it when it's not running.

But the payoff is no belt slip ever and the ability to accelerate quickly from the speed limit to well past the end of the stock speedometer in almost no time at all.

dennisbernal91z

iTrader: (2)

I already have the "big Red" open style. Mine is loud too. I just don't want to get any louder. But I do want to get rid of belt slip with my 3.40". I am calling ASSC tomorrow.

gta324

there are pictures here on thirdgen but here are some
http://medlem.spray.se/gta324/mods/F1/
that is with procharger bracket, but a homemade support bracket
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/fabr...r-bracket.html this week I will try test my new bracket design, the last posts in the thread.


Intercooler:Iused to run a 3-core from procharger but now I have a cheap ebay on, will do some datalogs this year and compare boost drop and Inlet temperatures of them both, and keep the best one......
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/powe...-pictures.html

Yes, its a streetcar no problems driving it, except the gas price.....
the video in signature, a few chages are made this year.
- another cam
- ported intake
- stallspeed is around 1000rpm less
- better tune.........

The PCV is just vented, but I have an electric airpump from a volvo 850 that I thinking of hooking up so It will help the crankcase ventilate under boost....

Idle is 850 I think, will have to check my tune if you like to know exact.....

/N.

dennisbernal91z

iTrader: (2)

gta324: Thanks for all your help. You definetly seem like the person I need to talk to about this. Looks like you have been dealing with underengineered Procharger stuff for quite some time.

1. Can I just order that spring loaded tensioner from Procharger?

2. Is there any way you could share the dimensions of the spacer that is needed to be made to make it mount a 12 rib pulley?

3. Since I don't have your ability, do you think I could just add the spring loaded tensioner to the crappy tensioner that the bracket already has. Running both tensioners, and maybe another idler.

4. I was also thinking about running a larger pulley on my standard thensioner. Good idea or bad?

5. Do you think adding the ASSC brackets will give the enough support? Or should I also look into making my own stuff? I have some OK fab and welding skills.

Thanks for all the help. I just really want to run that 3.40" this summer/fall. Been 2 years with no Camaro and want to make it to at least one show with the motor making what it was set out to make. (Hoping for around 700 RWHP, maybe a bit less).

Thanks again.

tom86iroc

iTrader: (1)

Dennis you can order the bracket that mounts to the back of the bracket to the Alt for a start from Procharger i made the lower bracket i had a spare looks like an AC one i had hanging around and just heated it up to make it fit and i'm in the process of making one to the underside area of the headunit that's all i need to put this in ALOT easier when the motors out to fab stuff up then bent over in a car

gta324

1.
Well ATI uses spring loaded tensioner opn newer setups so I guess so, but the one I use is from Ebay part.nbr 2028958c93 dayco. But search ebay for tensioner and you get alot of them, I now cummings or was it caterpillar? have one for 12rib setup..
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/powe...ioner-ati.html

2. Well the spacer depends on wich tensioner you'll get, If you get the one I have I can measure it for you.

3.
Thats the setup I used last year (except I made a new bracket for holding PS/Alt/ATI bracket) worked ok, just make sure when the spring loaded tensioner is at full tension the belt doesnt hit the "other" side of the belt... things will go bad dont ask me how I know

4.
will give you more belt wrap but easier for belt touching each other...

5.
ASSC bracket will help.....not sure if its enough.....

I mounted my spring tensioner so that when the stock tensioner is fully up and spring loaded is fully down the belt cant touch it self with a 3.4" pulley. Took the shortest belt I could mount and then adjusted stock tensioner so the belt was tight then realesed the spring loaded one............