Ed1LE

iTrader: (39)

Car is an 87 Iroc w/ 6-speed & 3.73’s (see Sig). Engine is a 355 w/ TRW L2256 forged flat tops, Comp cam xr276hr-12 (224/230 @ 0.050", .502/.510) plus 1.6 rr's, TPIS Mini Ram, 42# injectors, 58MM TB and a Paxton SN2000 w/ modded impellor running about 6-7lbs of boost. Current heads are Pro Topline 220cc, 64cc w/ 2.02/1.60's; compression is about 9.7-1. I currently have engine out for overhaul but debating on whether to keep these heads or go with either the AFR 1038 (195cc/75cc 2.05/1.60) or Patriot Performance 2181 (190cc/72cc 2.02/1.60). With the current Pro Toplines, my compression is about 9.7; with 75cc AFR's compression would be about 8.9 and with the 72cc Patriots, 9.0. Here are some Flow comparisons:

Pro Topline:
Intake Port Test Data @28" of water
.100 .200 .300 .400 .500 .600 .700
70.74 146.41 203.72 249.84 260.51 268.51 276.41

Exhaust Port Test Data @28" of water
.100 .200 .300 .400 .500 .600 .700
56.90 100.99 156.94 176.85 186.34 190.13 194.87

AFR:


Patriot Performance:


I am on the waiting list for a VR4 upgrade for the Paxton which would provide a nice increase in boost. However, this increase is what got me wondering if I should try to decrease the compression. The 190 & 195’s would be much more streetable compared to the 220cc of the Toplines. Car has run a best of 12.40 with a 700R4/2800 stall, 30# injectors and an off the shelf TPIS Chip so car was never properly tuned as I know of guys with similar combos running 12.20’s without the supercharger. I will be stepping up to an Engine management system (Probably EBL) as well.
Obviously the AFR’s have the best claimed flow numbers, however, the other factor to consider is cost. I have the Pro toplines, AFR’s are just shy of $1500 and the Patriots are $925. How much boost can I run with the current 9.7 compression ratio? (I already bought MLS Headgaskets to install) Is it worth switching to 190 or 195cc heads based on the smaller engine displacement and also lowering the compression some? Looking at the Patriot heads, I like the price but not very impressed with the flow numbers. Or, since I know this combo does run decently, leave as is? I like the AFR’s and know many swear by them, however, there’s a huge price jump associated with them. I’d like a solid, streetable, 11 second car.

Trinten

For what it's worth -

The speed shop that built my engine had plenty of experience with many different heads, and told me the ones they had the best results with in the past (Brodix, manf. brand high performance heads, listed some others). And they told me about the usual "touch-up" work that goes into the heads, even new ones.

I asked them about AFR, and they admitted they had not seen a set yet. Same with Patriot. I decided to spring for the AFR. The builder was floored by the quality. He said he'd never had a pair of heads that he could take out of the box and not need to touch. He was really excited about them and told me a bunch of stuff for comparison, most of which was over my head, so I don't recall it.

But this is a shop that produces engines for a lot of different strip-only and street strip cars and trucks, and has a great rep. So for a shop like that to be that excited over the AFR heads... really tells me it was the right way to go, and well worth the money.

always tinkerin

iTrader: (1)

Another vote for AFR here.
Don't be afraid to look at the AFR 210's on a prepared 355.
FWIW, I hit 11's with a 355 and Iron Eagle 215's (NA) . Most people said a 215 was way too big, but it was great!

Ed1LE

iTrader: (39)

I would probably just keep the Toplines even though they are 220cc but I'd also like to drop the compression some, although I was reading Chevy Hi-Tech last night and there was an LT1 running like 10psi on a 10.1 motor and a GN running 25psi on a 9.7.1 3.8 so I wonder if I should just stick with what I have...far cheaper for me.

antoine

I have the afr 1038 and they are 75 cc but if I could go back to my trickflows heads I would cause they was 64 cc .I have a paxton sn-2000 but it feels like I had more power with the trickflows cause of them being 64 cc I'm on the list also for the vr-4 but if pw does not make them then I will replace my pistons to up the comp to 9:8:1 like it was with the trickflows.

always tinkerin

iTrader: (1)

You could probably leave everything as it is, install a thicker head gasket to reduce compression, and install a small meth injection kit to control any possible detonation.

Ed1LE

iTrader: (39)

Antoine, we were talking a while back on superchargerhelp.com. Any word from PW on the VR4's.

Ed1LE

iTrader: (39)

I considered that as well, guess it ultimately depends on if I am able to sell the Pro Toplines or not. If not, I'll use them b/c I have them adn the meth kits aren't that expensive.

antoine

No word yet a lot of guys say they been on the vr4 list for a while

Ed1LE

iTrader: (39)

I sent Craig at PW an email today asking if there was an anticipated date for the upgrades...here's his unfortunate response:

"No not yet. The foundry where I do my work has just closed after 25 years of working with them, so now I need to find a new foundry."

antoine

Dam I been on the list for a long

Ed1LE

iTrader: (39)

I sent Craig at PW another email after being informed of a foundry I could suggest to him by another member on here and here is his response...looks like a long wait until the VR4 update happens unfortunately.

"Thanks for the heads up on the foundry. I am trying to keep all my contractors here local to suppose local businesses and to can keep a close eye on the progress. Honestly between the foundry lose and me buying a building and moving this year, side projects are going at a snails pace. My 3 other businesses are busy and with trying to get the shop up and running smooth the VR-4 keeps getting put on the back burner. I will make them again, its just a matter of when. Sorry to keep putting all of you patience people off but I have to go with what really makes my family money first and then these side "fun" projects will get done."

Trinten

At least he was up front about his reasons behind it. Stinks that his foundry-source closed... the decline of the US steel/foundry industry makes me sad. /off-topic-mini-rant.

Ed1LE

iTrader: (39)

Meth kit may be the way I go since I can't seem to sell my heads. This looks like an interesting option using washer fluid:
http://www.cundnracing.com/PaxtonSNupgrades.html


Yeah, I hear ya. We tried though, thanks for providing that info!

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Those aluminum Pro Toplines? If so I'd probably keep those. Just run a wider piston ring gap to be safe and let it eat. On 93 gas and aluminum heads with the right spark plug heat range, you should beable to run some good boost. 6/7 psi is nothing on a 9.7 to 1 motor. Can easily get away with more if your looking for more power. 220's are alittle big for a 355 with that cam but the blower will make up for any lost low end power.

The AFR's out the box are great heads. They probably will out power those 220's in the rpm ranges you are running and likely pick up alot of mid range power due to faster velocity ports. You wont be disappointed if you go that direction. I wouldnt touch the patriots.


Have you looked at the Pro-Filer heads and just replace the springs to match the cam? They have a decent hyd roller spring that should work well with that cam since its not a crazy aggressive cam, but with boost I'd like abit more spring pressure.

Jegs brand heads are same thing and as cheap/cheaper. They will run with AFR heads in performance

Ed1LE

iTrader: (39)

Yes, the Toplines are aluminum. I haven't looked into those heads, not sure I've even heard of Pro-Filer but will take a look. I have been considering stepping up in cam some to "make up the difference" between the smaller cam & larger heads. Just don't want to loose streetability.

Ed1LE

iTrader: (39)

Doing some research on the Pro-Filer heads, real nice heads with seemingly good reviews, have decent flow numbers...and just under $1K out of the box. For $500 less than AFR, they have my attention.

AFR:


Pro-Filer:


At a crossroads now...keep the Pro-Toplines and step up cam or leave as is?

or

maybe these Pro-Filer's in 72cc dropping my compression to about 9.25.1 and gaining some more low-end on the street with the existing cam?

Decisions Decisions...

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I'd probably get a custom blower cam for the heads you have now and up the boost abit. It should take 10-12 psi if the tune is good. If it doesnt perform, then it could be the heads but Toplines are decent. They respond better to port work tho.

If you can sell the heads for some money and get the profilers, then it be well worth it IMO. Profilers are good heads.

Ed1LE

iTrader: (39)

Unfortunately I'm about maxed out on boost with the little SN2000...I had intentions of upgrading to a VR4 but that doesn't look like it'll be happening soon. That being said, I'm thinking I may be better of where I am compression-wise and either matching a better cam to the heads or stepping down to a 195 but retaining the compression with 64cc.

DeltaElite121

I vote Profilers with the Econo-porting from Chad Speier. Head flow rates are only a minor portion to the overall equation.

That guy definitely knows what he's doing. Go see his dyno results if you're curious.. they're all over the site's forums and main page.

Ed1LE

iTrader: (39)

I was researching them earlier today and reading lots of post by Chad and about him on various forums and really impressed with what I was learning. Lots of support, postive feedback & impressive numbers...especially for the price!

Ed1LE

iTrader: (39)

Toplines are sold so it's decision time.

Ed1LE

iTrader: (39)

I have a set of AFR 1094's (195cc, 75cc, 2.08/1.60's) available to me for $1000 shipped...these retail for $2K and only have dyno time but I'm concerned about the compression being too low at just 8.83.1 with only 6-8psi from the little Paxton SN2000. Also, with the intercooler and heads that flow as well as these AFR's, I'm worried I will have trouble building that much boost.
The other option I'm now also considering are the 195cc Pro-Filers in 70cc to yield 9.27.1 with 2.05/1.6's. Obviously they won't flow has well as the AFR's out of the box but have lots of potential for future growth and I'm thinking will respond better to the lower boost as well as allow me to build more boost with the as-cast heads.
CUNDN Racing claims to have the VR4 ugrade soon, however, I know this as already been a very long wait for many. The other option in the future would be a turbo if the VR4 doesn't happen and 9.27.1 would still be low enough I think to run a decent amount of boost with either turbo or the VR4. Thoughts?

Ed1LE

iTrader: (39)

BTW, my goal is high 11's for now, mid to low 11's with higher boost from VR4 or turbo down the road (without having to change anything engine related...goal for the car is pro-touring/road course racing moreso than all out drag racing.
Cam is a 228/236 & 515/524 w/ 113lsa plus 1.6 rockers
I'm really limited to about $1200 for heads right now and that's pushing it...The Pro-Filers would be $1170 shipped.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

8.8 to 9.3 is splitting hairs IMO. 8.8 is better for high boost but your bottom end may not handle it. The small difference in compression probably wont be too noticeable. If you can get the AFR's for 1000, thats your best bang for the buck. Although I like the smaller valve head.

Boost is just a measure of restriction so dont be too concerned with building boost to make power. A good flowing setup that only sees 4psi could make more hp than a poor flowing setup that sees 8psi. It all depends.

Profilers are a great head too and leave room for growth. 9.3 to 1 would be plenty low enough to hit it with as much boost as you want as long as the tune is right and you use good fuel.

Cant go wrong either way. AFR probably will come with the 8019 springs which I am a fan of. They would work great with your roller cam and boost. Not sure what profilers have available but if similar spring rates, they will work. AFR just has lighter valvetrain components in case float was ever a concern, since that cam on a 355 should go to over 6K with boost. I'd like to see more valve lift tho. If you ever wanted to go abit bigger on cam in the future, the AFR's would be set to handle it. Profiler maybe too but I just dont know what they come with.

antoine

Mine is a dog cause of the 75 cc heads.if they are going to make a vr-4 kit then I would go with the 75 cc,I lost a lot of power going frm 64cc trickflows to afr 1038

Trinten

That's a great price on those AFRs, I'd say jump on that and then deck the block and shave the heads. I understand you can only do a little to each piece, but between that, a good-but-thin gasket, you should bring your compression up enough.

That's just my opinion and if your engine is out and if you want to go through the trouble of having it decked. Just having the heads done, and maybe switch to flattop pistons (if you don't have them already), would be good enough?

Ed1LE

iTrader: (39)

Yeah, it is a pretty smokin' deal...only thing wrong w/ them is one spark plug was stripped so it was repaired with a heli-coil. I just want to be sure that I'm not hurting myself w/ low compression by not running much boost but I guess what is being said here is the heads are good enough to offset that...

Ed1LE

iTrader: (39)

Already running flat tops w/ 6cc valve reliefs and Felpro MLS 1142 gaskets (.040 compressed thickness). Block work is done so don't want to go back and have it decked but guess I could always shave a little off the head.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

What was the compression change? I'm kinda surprised to hear that but if the compression was low enough to begin with, I can see it dropping power by going lower than absolutely necessary.

Ed1LE

iTrader: (39)

Just pulled the trigger and send payment for the AFR's.

antoine

I went frm 64cc to 75cc and I'm using speed pro Lf-2256 piston with fel pro 1010 headgasket

Ed1LE

iTrader: (39)

I was thinking much bigger may be too much for the smaller blower right now...with the 1.6's I will be at .544/.554

I'm running 2256's too so you should be right around 8.8/8.9.1 as well.

antoine

If I can't get a vr-4 kit I'm going up on compression

Ed1LE

iTrader: (39)

If no VR4 I'm going turbo...still contemplating that route regardless but the charger will entertain me for now so I can focus elsewhere on the car.

Ed1LE

iTrader: (39)

Update from Craig @ Paradise Wheel...

"Yes, We have the scroll covers done but the impellers are now going to be made from billet to cure the problem of balance. We are programing the CNC and will be making them from 6061-T6 solid billet. No more cast impellers. Keep in touch , we need more time ( and money)"

Waiting to see what he comes back with regarding price with the billet impellers.

antoine

so maybe i should wait

Ed1LE

iTrader: (39)

Sounds like it's still a few months out which is fine with me...time to finish other things on car. He said in a following email they are aiming to keep price around $600 still but won't know exact pricing until kit is complete.