Hey guys this is one of my early posts here i'm new to these parts. anyway I just recently picked up an 86 firebird/trans am 305 high output small block. I wanna do something a little bit different and run a turbo or supercharger instead of nitrous like everyone else. Is that even possible with the carb? Car is bone stock 50k miles on it 5speed short throw heading in there soon. Any suggestions on a set up? looking to hit around 300-350 horse with some mods that can be reversed down the road.

Thanks

 

You can mod a carb for blow through. With how much horse you want to make look at a Martin Turbo Kit. Personally, I would find a TPI intake (or something like a Stealth Ram, depending on budget), put big injectors in it, and Megasquirt it. Then build your Turbo around that. Carbs are good for WOT, but you will want to have the EFI to refine the tune better.

A search should help you solve the details.

 

Agreed. A carb can be made to perform very well with a turbo for everyday use, but it gets very complicated if you don't already know what your doing w/them. Also, if your only looking to make that much horsepower, you don't even need a turbo....

 

Than what would you guys recommend like I previously said only looking for 300-350 horse but I want it to be reversible.

 

I'm assuming that you want it to be reversible so you can keep the car as if it were never touched, and stock, right? Well, anything can be reversible, what matters is how deep your pockets are. You can slap on a turbo charger, w/turbo headers, and buy the associated parts that go with it (blow-thru carb, fuel pump, etc.). You can pull the stock heads, cam and intake for storage, and install a package that will get you there. Or you can simply go with a nice shot of nitrous on top of what you already have, and only use it when you need to....

 

Yes that's my idea... what type of monetary damages am I looking at with a full turbo set up? Not trying to spend more than lets say $1500 on that. No luck with locating a place selling the martin turbo kits? any help with that?

 

Nowadays you can buy a turbo charger for very cheap, and they've been proven to be very reliable, especially at moderate boost levels. The hardest part is the turbo headers, then the downpipe leading to the catalytic converter. You can buy a boost referenced mechanical fuel pump for pretty cheap to handle up to 15-psi (being that you don't want to molest the stock one), the only problem from there is the carb, as it must be a blow-thru design. I would consider buying one from the carb shop (just give them the engines specifications), because even when your done and return the car to stock, you should get most of your money right back for the carb because people gobble them up used, especially from a credible source (so keep the receipt)....

Here's a link to help inspire you along the way....;

http://www.toohighpsi.com/BudgetTT/tthowto.htm

 

Hey man thanks a lot for the information now i'm in search for a turbo!

 

.... not this one per se, but you'll get an idea about the pricing;

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/t3t4-...Q5fAccessories

 

Since $1500 is your budget .u should consider n2o for the power level your going for. turbo setup cost easy $25k or more , there is alot that goes into it.

 

25k or more? Not looking for a full like race car setup just a cool 75-100hp out of it... seeing them go for $1000-1500 full kits... 25k not sure where you got that number from

 

Are you trying to retain the stock computer controlled carb? If so, forget anything blow-though (turbo or centrifugal blower). Not gonna happen.

If you DON'T want to retain the stock carb then you've just increased your cash outlay, probably well beyond your budget. A blow-through prepped Holley carb and the new non-computer controlled distributor you'll also need to make it work will not leave you with much left over to spend on the blower/turbo kit.

Since it's an 86 it's NOT an HO motor. They didn't offer the L69 305 HO in 86. Only the low output LG4 305 4bbl motor.

And it just so happens that Weiand/Holley offers an emissions-legal roots-style mini-blower kit (draw-through, retaining your stock carb) ONLY for the 86 LG4 305. The kit is reasonably close to your budget, but you will also have to shell out another couple hundred for the 4" cowl induction hood you'll need to fit it under becuase it absolutely WON'T fit under the stock hood.

Nitrous is looking like a pretty good alternative right now, isn't it?

 

$1500 Not for boost. What no one tells you is all the little details that pop up as you do one of these projects. They used to call it nickles and dimes but now it is $20's and $50's for those little extra trips to get some part.

A 100 shot of NO2 will do the least damage to your wallet and you can still have a lot of fun.

 

No, you won't be spending $25,000 or more for a turbo setup. I could see a little over $2500 for your application, yes, but not $25,000. For that kind of money you can buy yourself two TTA's and call it a day. For a carbureted application, again, go with The Carb Shop, they'll get it dialed in over the phone closer than anyone could with it right in front of them. They are that credible, but the carbs don't come cheap, about a grand, Click Here. For turbo headers, you can contact BBS Designs, as an entire setup (turbo header, drivers side header, and crossover) will cost you about $1200.00, Click Here. For a mechanical fuel pump, you can either convert your existing pump (not recommended), or purchase a Carter pump w/boost reference port in tact for under $200.00, Click Here. The little things aren't much, but of course they add up, like oil feed and return lines, wastegate (get a knock off), and vacuum lines, which you'll find on ebay for very cheap. Intercooler isn't really mandatory, as your not shooting for that much boost to begin with, so it's optional. From there, it's all about the additional tuning. The Carb Shop will have the blow thru carburetor very close as it is, which is why it is imperative that you give them all of your specs beforehand, but you'll want to have someone dial everything in thereafter. Plenty of places in New Jersey....

 

^ Just to mention, that isn't even the cheap way out. If you really wanted to, you could nab a set of knock off BBS headers, similar in design, for about $250.00. You could buy yourself a used Holley 650 w/mechanical secondaries for about $50.00 just about anywhere, and have someone convert it for you for you for about $100.00, Click Here, you can convert your existing pump for under $20.00, so there are alternatives to get the final price trimmed down significantly. We already discussed turbo chargers a few posts up...

 

Sorry but the did have a HO in 86... production info for ya

86 Trans Am M5 L69 V8 9.5:1 5.0 (305) 190@4800 240@3200 4bbl HO 3.23 3.73


and thanks streetlethal i will keep all that in mind appreciate that

 

LMAO! 25K! That is crazy talk! I think I will have $9000 into everything in my car! That is a totally forged engine, Al heads, fuel mods, building my own turbo set up, turbo, wastegate, blow off valve, modding some xs power headers, trans, shifter, price of the car, turbo ect.! That is running down the road with crazy power (A lot more than a 100 shot on a 305). Another 2k and I will have bodywork done and a junk yard 9"! Wow you need to check your facts before you post!

 

Computer controlled carb... lol! You are missing the point completely! This is a carbed 305. He wants a supercharger or turbo on it. Wich one do you think he should go with? If you want to suggest going a different route, you probably shouldn't call him stupid. That way people actually listen to you! lol

 

haha thank you wrenchp but he only made himself look stupid... guess he should check his own facts before proving mine wrong starting over AGAIN... which do you guys suggest super charger or turbo charger for the money! lol

 

Uhhh.....Wrenchp...first off, his car already HAS a computer contolled carb if it is indeed an L69 model (HO) , and Weiand sells a roots type supercharger that bolts on top of his engine which can boost power anywhere from 35-50% -and he can retain his CCC computer, carb and distibutor and even better -it's emissions legal, which is a huge plus if you live in a smog check area.

Seems to me that's an answer to his post - Super or Turbo...

So please explain how Damon is missing the point, or where he called anyone "stupid"?? Or did you quote the wrong post??


Damon has been on this board for quite a while, and has helped - or attempted to help many people here, so he certainly doesn't deserve comments like yours.

 

He set off early to describe how I was wrong about my engine. I personally took his post as though he was looking down on me for not knowing my correct engine. However after re-looking up the engine in my car and the engine offered in my year it is him who was incorrect. Obviously others saw the same tone he posted with as I did and some other members stepped in with their own posts. I think the subject has been buried and thank you for that information. I was not aware of that option.

 

Ahh...Ok - he must've editied that out. Fact is, if it's an HO motor in '86, it's pretty darn rare. I only recall a couple since I've been on the board, and that's been a while. -But I still don't think he was trying to call you "stupid". There's been a rash of people calling their TPI engines "HO" - which they were never officially called HO engines. -Nuff said...

 

here was the response... prior to you giving up

 

Got it!!

I now see how Wrenchp and you seen it that way. I really don't think he was talking down to you because if you look at the production numbers for a L69 option in 86 - I think you have a rare car. If you mod it, you may want to save all the stock parts so you can change it back to stock in the future...I actually have all mine (minus the 10 bolt rear, big deal) because the production numbers were kinda low in 83 for the l69 option (came out mid-year) - but not near as rare as yours. Got pics?

 

My vote is, without a doubt, Turbo. If your car is rare, you can always set the manifolds and carb aside. Turbo just makes the best power of the two.

Supercharger would be nice because all you have to do is mess with the intake side and leave exhaust alone. So you might consider doing a supercharger if you really feel the need to get your car to where you can put it back to stock quickly. But then again, that depends on what kind of supercharger you want to run. If you get a roots type then, as stated above, it won't fit under the hood. A cyntrifical supercharger would be best.

The last thing I would consider is how much is the HO 305 really worth the way it is. Now it might be worth a lot to you and if it is then that is fine, but if you are trying not to mod it as much as you can because it is actually worth something then you need to consider how much it is worth modded too. IMO, mod it, do what you want with it.

 

Ya I'm thinking I have something rare and I have taken off a bunch of stuff like the airfilter and I plan on keeping it all in a box... which brings me to the begining of my post about wanting everything to be reversible It's a factory 5 speed factory louvers and bird on the front H motor and only 50k miles on it. No pics yet it desperately needs paint but by mid summer she will be done Thanks for the input tho guys

also my price range is $1500 can I pick up a centrifugal supercharger with that?

 

I think the only way you will do that is to get a really good deal used for a centrifugal SC.

You would have to do a thight budget turbo with 1500. You'll have to fabricate headers, crossover, and downpipe. Not a big deal if you know your way around a MIG or TIG. Thing is, you will spend a lot more on a centrifigul than doing a budget turbo system.

 

yeah your right what do i know.

 

"H" motor?!? -You might want to check out the 8th digit of your VIN....I believe if it's "H", then it's an LG4 engine not an HO. If it's an HO, it'll be fairly obvious - it'll have "G" as the 8th digit along with 5.0 Litre HO decals in some areas on the car.

It only effects the rarity of the car in '86 since the short block is pretty much identical with the same compression. Only diff would be the exhaust, and perhaps the carb jetting and computer fuel curve. According to the info, there were only 75 or less HO birds built in '86....that would be rarer than a TTA.

 

How do you have 25k into that? Isn't that a diesel turbo? I just really don't know how that is possible. Nice intake by the way!

 

Certainly not my intention to offend anyone with my answer. I would never call anyone stupid, nor even try to imply it. I edited nothing out of my original post except to fix spelling/gramatical errors (which I always have tons of in my first cut).

I'll stand by what I posted. If there are, in fact, 75 L69 305 HO motors put in 86 Camaros and you happen to have one of them out of the hudreds of thousands of Camaros that were built that year, well, I guess I'll take the hit on that one. You would indeed have a combo I've never seen myself nor know anyone who has ever come across one.

And if you DO have one, the Weiand kit I mentioned will work on it as well. It's got a very long blower snout designed to clear the wide v-belt plus serpentine belt setup used in 86-87, even clearing the outer-most belt that runns from the water pump to the smog pump.

Confuzed1- thank you for the positive reference about my history on this board.

 

Just to give you an idea of where I am so far on cost of putting a D-1 on my Buick.
D-1 Free
Carb, have an HP 950 so minor so far
blower pulley for crank free
blower brackets designed by me $100
pulley adaptor $100
12 rib belt $ 60
hardware $50
power steering relocate $100
Fuel system upgrade $500 (this can go to $800 in a flash)
air and intercooler stuff $400 (this turned out to be cheap)
ignition upgrades $400 (boost controller and upgrades)
O2 guage $200
fuel pressure guage $150
bock upgrades $750 (you may not need this)

I have been hanging out on Ebay and varius boards snatching up parts whenever possible. I could have spent $500 or more on brackets but there are a lot of machinist looking for small jobs. You may not need the ignition upgrades but who knows. I figure when you are doing boost things must be perfect unless you like big engine parts to turn into small ones.

Chevy might be cheaper to do than Buick but I think you need to go into a project like this with your eyes open.

 

on my setup im way past 25k.I could see a toned down setup costing 25k easy.The turbo im running is a precision turbo. if u want to do everything right u cant go cheap on the material.

 

I have a 355 with forged crank, H-beams, forged pistons, great Al heads, JGS wastegate, T76 Master Power turbo, dual Wally intank pumps, the price of the car included I will have $9000 tops running around with 800whp. I didn't get cheap materials. I am no where near 25k, and this is a big hp build. Unless you are paying someone to do it, or you are building a show car that has 1000+ HP, there is no way to get to 25k if you know what to spend money on and what not to spend money on.

My friend put a turbo on his LT1 car, ripped that apart and put a 5.3 ls engine in and put the turbo stuff on that. He got his car down to the cent and through all that he only spent 12k doing it all. Given the fact that he did get the hp I will out of my car with either of those setups, that is still not 25k with two different setups.

As long as you can fabricate pretty well there is no reason that a very mild turbo system shouldn't cost $3500 if you bought the best of the best of everything. If you start doing things like modding carbs for blowthrough and finding headers and parts that will work there is no reason that system shouldn't cost more than $1500 to $2500 depending on turbo and parts.

For his power level, I wouldn't be suprised if he made a turbo system for $1500 at all.

 

u ever heard the expression "time is money"??
if your doing the work yourself ,u are spending money . if u did the work for someone else u would be earning the money. You might not grasp this concept at first but in time u will. 25k will be easier to see.

 

Okay, so do you pay yourself to read a book, play a sport, or do any of your hobbies? My car is my hobby, that is how I treat it. I know this concept is really hard for you to grasp, but I work on my car in my spare time. It isn't a task or a chore and it does cost a lot of money. Sure I could make money at it, but I don't take that into account when I am working on my car. This car is going to be for me.

We are talking a turbo setup anyhow. The actual parts do not cost 25k. Now you are just trying to justify your thinking. Just the parts don't cost 25k. Even if we added labor into what he is trying to do, it wouldn't be anywhere near 25k. How long does it take to swap a carb and build a crossover and downpipe, and put the cold side together with no air to air? I bet an unexperienced person who has all the materials on hand wouldn't take longer than a few days. That isn't 23.5k of labor...

I personally don't charge myself for my car because I would just be doing something else that doesn't make any money at that time anyway.

 

where did i say u need 25k in parts?? but you`ll get very close to it in parts.
anyways do you really think you`ll get far with $9000 and make 800 rwhp reliable( or actually make 800 rwhp)??? reading your parts list i see nothing but questionable parts.

Master power turbo= u should of gone with a way better turbo like garret,turbonetics, or precision.

h-beam rods= why not I-beam, crower or oliver billet rods.

Forged crank (scat ,eagle???)= atleast go with lunati or crower.

355 block (010?)= o-ring??? goodluck with that block next time go with a dart little m or bowtie block.

camshaft???= solid roller?

great al-heads?? = like brodix, afr ,dart ?? ported???

what did u use headers?? dont tell me u made something work?? did u use stainless steel?? log or tubular?? tig welded??

th400 = what kind of modification did u do it ,to make it handle 800 rwhp??? it better be more than shift kit??? torque converter??

junkyard 9" is what u are trying to get?? umm good luck with 800 rwhp. i know nodular is too much money.

howcome u dont mention a roll cage. u do plan on going fast ?

what are using for a fuel system carb or fuel injection??? are u using dfi, big stuff, fast,or motec??? just dont tell me you are using a carb.

 

alright there guys obviously you can spend 25k on a turbo set up if you want enough arguing over prices... The reason myself and others were shocked when you said 25k was because at the beginning of the post I stated I wanted to make a modest 400hp... Not a tremendous leap and certainly not even $5000 worthy... enough of the fighting move on

 

FoodStampz, pick up the latest copy of Car Craft (July issue) at a local 7-11, or Wawa, as they're featuring an article on the cover called; "Turbocharge Any Engine, We'll Show You How", it's a pretty good read....

-Rob

 

 

Why go with something different than a Master Power? Given it is peice of mind having a good brand name, but Master Power does the same thing as Garret and all of them and are less money. Just because it says Garret or Precision or something doesn't make it horribly better than anything else. My friend went from a Turbonetics to a Master Power because Master Power is an actual good brand.

H-beam design are stronger than I beam. I just got the most bang for my buck. Scat rates them at 750 horse. That is just 50 hose away from my goal.

What is going to happen to my block? Unless a piston gives or something like that there is no reason why there should be a problem. It is decked and everything.

Don't need an o-ring for what I am doing, but there is a project for the future.

Forged crank is a 1969 LT1 GM piece. It is rotational, you don't need anything special. Plus it isn't like it is going to see 800HP all the time too. LS1 guys are running STOCK crank up to 1000RWHP. You can't tell me that a forged crank from a SBC can't do the same thing.

The biggest reason I can do the HP numbers that i am talking about is the 8:1 compression. Once I get a big enough MAP I am can run 25+lbs of boost. That level of boost is enough to put a 300hp engine to 900hp. Also my bottom end can handle it.

Headers are stainless steel that I am going to mod myself. Why does it matter if they are TIG anyway? A good MIG weld will hold up just fine but look less atractive. Besides the fact that I think that a coated mild steel is better. Mild steel bend, they don't crack. If you really want to get technical cast iron is the best. It will crack, but it takes a hell of a lot to do that. Plus it insulates the runner for heat for good velocity. The problem there is to find, or mod something that flows nice. So why do you NEED TIGed stainless, to look pretty?

Camshaft is a hydrolic flat tappit. Might want to upgrade in the future, it will work right now though. I have full roller Al rockers in it right now.

Heads are Patriot performance 195cc intake runner heads. Again you are paying for a name when you get down to the nitty gritty. I didn't want the Procomp heads because they have horrible valve work. These heads are CNC bowl blended. I made a good choice there, I didn't just go with the cheapest.

The only thing I want to do is to replace the head bolts once I get it all tuned in to studs.

I am not looking to hook up the power yet at all. After I get a valve body and the 9" squared away maybe we will start to talk about traction.

As for cage, that is in the works, the whole car still won't cost more than $9000 when I am done.

My fuel injection will be controlled by Megasquirt. I have it all together and ready to go.

I have seen people make this power level using a deisel turbo with less money into it. I have seen people make 3/4 of the power I am talking about with a 4k turbo setup and a STOCk engine. Those STOCK combinations are still going down the road and most of them have been together for two years or so. You really have to be less influenced by branding and do some research when it comes to building an engine. You have to listen to a little bit of branding when you are building some things. That is just like staying away from Eagle. I know people that have gotten engines messed up because of Eagle. That is why none of my stuff is Eagle. If you have 25k dumped into your car, and did it all yourself, you have to have a freaking 1200WHP car at least if you put it together right.

What about the guy who built his engine and it blew up. He had a TT set up on it. He took a junkyard SBC and trew the setup on it and ran 9s on his TPI with twin turbo. He ended up selling the engine when he was done. He didn't even blow it up! He was on the Turbo Forums and LS1tech.com for a long time. I can't remember his name. Sure that was a fluke, but i have WAY better parts than that.

 

Who, Marty....?

http://www.carcraft.com/featuredvehi...ird/index.html

 

.... it was Marty who inspired me to do the very same thing, this picture is a few weeks old, as the manifolds now have the turbo and wastegate flanges already welded on, just waiting to finish the Megasquirt harness, then I'll start work on the downpipes. If you notice the drivers side manifold, its the same manifold as the passenger side, but I cut the primaries, turned it around, and had it welded. Once all is said and done, everything comes out, the setup is off to get ceramic coated, engine gets cleaned, and that's pretty much where I'll spend the most of my money. Was going to run a single T88, but that's now on the back burner, and will be running twins a tad larger than Marty's.

 

Yeah that was him. I mean come on, that is stock and runs 9s.

How much money do you have into it, and what power level are you going for Street Lethal?

 

The camshaft is a little more radical than what Marty ran, and the heads flow a lot more. They are the factory 882 castings, w/1.94 on the intake and 1.60 on the exhaust, w/8:5.1 compression, but recently had more port work done to them. The engine is also a 70's vintage, but it's a 355. With the modifed manifolds, the turbo's, the wastegates, the Megasquirt, the TPI setup w/sensors, the stall speed converter, injectors, intercooler and tubing, and I'm nowhere near five thousand, including the car....

 

Yeah I feel like I went a little overboard sometimes when I think about Marty and your car. lol. I think FoodStampsz could make his 305 nasty with a few bucks. Go turbo FoodStampsz!

 

What impressed me most w/Marty's car was his power under the curve. That's the whole reason I didn't bother with an HSR, because the car will rarely see upwards of 6000-RPM anyway, so that, in conjunction with controlled detonation, the engine should live for quite awhile, while putting down incredible torque figures. I'm in the same area in terms of rear gear ratio, as I believe he found the best results using a 3.00 gear, so I went with a relatively low stall. I'm dying to see what this car will do at low RPM's around town, then later at the track....

 

Yeah I would have to say that his car, and my freinds turbo LT1, were the driving force for my project. Things don't last long at high RPMs anyway, why not make the power down lower? A turbo car is a whole different animal, that is for sure.

 

u must be a point and shoot welder. Serously u think tig is only for looks only??? u are pretty ignorant in welding. did u know u cant get a cage certified if it so not tig welded??

coated mild steel is better than what 304,320 . than u top yourself and say cast iron is the best, hmm i use to own a turbo eagle talon with nice cracked cast iron manifold. metallurgy is not your best subject.

 

we used to use paxton blowers. you had to make sure the carb was up to it but just bolt on and go. and if you really wanted to go there was always the high button for a real kick - but most of the time you kept it at low.
i think they are easire than a turbo which requires a lot of extra pipe.
but you gotta love the paxton whine - because if you dont it will drive you nuts.