JohnBlazeLTZ

Well...I am looking for the right set up for a SC'd 383. After talking to a few machine/engine shops...I got a rotating assembly quote from Competition Products in Oshkosh, WI.

This is the email I got for the rotating assembly:

(Start)

Crank: Scat PN# 435037506000 $599.95
Rods: Scat PN# SCR6A7 $289.95
Pistons: SRP PN# 138103 $597.99
Rings: Total Seal PN# TS1 4.035 $212.99
Main Bearings: Clevite PN# MS909H $62.99
Rod Bearings: Clevite PN# CB663HN $63.99

The crank is a 4340 forging. It has to be 4340 because if you use anything less the torsional twist and vibration will eventually break the snout off. This crank is profiled for a 6" rod. This will allow us to internally balance the assembly. The rods are an I-beam 6" with ARP 7/16 bolts rated to 750HP. The pistons forged with a 16cc dish. These pistons will make 9.8:1 compression w/64cc heads and 9.0:1 w/72cc. The rings have a gap-less 2nd ring. I recommend this for all forced induction applications.
Also, I believe with a set if 215cc runner heads this combination will easily exceed 500HP without the blower. I do not offer a combination like this in an assembled short block.

(End)

Ok well...honestly...this is more then I could've hoped for. The quote was only a little higher then I wanted it but I figured a true forged crank and the SRP pistons were really good insurance for a stout bottom end. I didn't want to skimp on ANY of this stuff. It is the foundation.

Well...my question is that the power numbers are higher then I am really looking for at first. I am concerned about keeping it street-able. This isn't going to be a drag racing machine. When he quoted me the 215cc head recommendation...I could only find intakes that build from 3000rpm and up. Will this be street-able? He told me that this engine combo even with dished pistons and 64cc heads without the blower could easily be 500 ponies still...but he didn't know I was probably only going to be using the 2 barrel TBI at first. Later on I want to do a top end upgrade down the road.

Right now I have the lowly Edelbrock TBI 2 barrel intake. I know its not the Holy Grail for a 383 with a huffer...but even if the engine only ran at 330-360hp...I would be o.k. with that....I realize that I can't afford a quality top end right away and that the power figures are going to be drastically affected by this. I am o.k. with that. I have seen 2 barrel TBI 383 going 330-360hp with 430-490ft.lbs of TQ. The TQ is what I am after anyway...

My question is...what intake and cylinder head combo can I get that is affordable, worthwhile but not too limiting and above all... street-able. Lets face it...I don't want to be cruising an out of control drag car on the weekends and reving it out at 7K...LOL....I just want a well behaved street car...

Thanks guys,

JB

fast82z

iTrader: (1)

I wouldn't worry about streetability except for the cam. I know the next motor I build is going to have a smaller duration cam somewhere in the 220's and use 1.7 rockers to get the lift up around .580-.600. I would go for 215 heads, but my Trick Flow 195s have treated me well. A couple years ago I was running the Trick Flow top-end kit rated for 500fwhp, and it ended up dynoing 405rwhp@ 6400rpm and did a best of 11.44@ 119 before the roll bar, axle, and blower added to the 3300lb race weight. With 215 heads and a cam duration of 250 or more, I'd say his 500hp+ estimate is true. Only thing I'm afraid of in his list is the connecting rods being I-beam instead of forged H-beams, but as long as you don't plan over 750hp then don't mind it. Be ware of boost though, 10psi on a motor such as that is pretty much garaunteed a 10 second pass.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

yep with a 383, 215 heads are streetable enough. Plus with a a blower you will have plenty of bottom end.

to get 500 on motor with that compression will require a good head and a fiarly big cam. Not optimal. A mild blower cam in that car will probly make a more realistic 430-450 hp but the blower with 10 psi or so can definately get you over 650-700 on motor. That will be alotof power to handle and it should drive great

lt1z350

iTrader: (2)

well i just did a similar combo. 383 with a small grind which makes is super streetable and pulls 14 inch of vacuum and gets 20 mpg if i stay out of boost. 224 230 dur @ .050 .550 lift aprox with a 1.6 rocker on a 112. I use the bran new afr 195 eliminator heads that flow better than most 215 castings from other makers and i paid 1400 for them to my door. i run a turbo and so far only about 8 lbs of boost. not sure of hp yet as I have not dynoed it yet but in a 92 formula full street car auto (heavy) has a/c and a 2 12s in the back with a full system the car just ran 10.04 @ 138 on 8 lbs with creeping to 10 in third.. I would guess the car to be around 3600 with me and that would put it over 600 rwhp. I run a hsr intake that is stock and a 58mm tb. single 3 inch exhaust. I wish I found some ones proven combo to go by when doing mine and got very lucky that this thing runs so strong with not much money in it. on 5 lbs it still trapped 128. I can drive it to the track and back with the a/c on. hows that for a street combo? still can go to 20lbs but car would fall apart around the turbo. lol. might try 12 lbs to get it to trap over 140mph but think all parts are now past there limit so i drive it on 5 lbs and only go above to race it. on 5 it destroys the tires from a 60 mph roll.
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by the way i run a cast scat crank and stock shot peened and bushed full floating stock powder metal rods. yikes...... but only spin it 5500 right now, it is a 4 bolt block though.lol it makes way more powere than i ever though it would at these boost level and had known what it was going to do would have went steel crank and aftermarket rods. sure i will be up gradeing soon. do have a kick a$$ set of probe pistons though.lol

AKS_Racing

When building many of the past FI combos, my first recomendation is to get the max cubes with the best bottom end, then follow it with the best heads you can afford. That being said, you have the cubes (383CID), you seem to have a good parts list in the bottom end, and you are now looking at the top end.

I agree with what the others have said in that the 215s will be a great head with the larger cubes (AFR CP eleminators would be great heads for these, heck even the 195 CP elims would be). You can "adjust" the streetability of the combo through your cam selection. The intake (if willing to go to traditional TPI styles) can be anywhere from the SR to the MRII, to the HSR or the SP. I have run all of these except the HSR on my personal cars. If I were going down this path again in a FI application, I would just go straight for the SP and skip the other iterations.

The SP set-ups are getting much cheaper to put together these days.
Aaron
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Orr,
I see you over here and on CF. I just ventured over to this site this week and it seems like there are a lot of folks here eager to learn without all of the ego crap associated with CF.

My car NA made right at 480WHP, but I also have a few cubes on the 383 and a big SR. I think it will be tough to get 500WHP from any 9:1 SCR "streetable" 383 build.
Aaron

JohnBlazeLTZ

Hi Guys...sorry I just found out you all replied...I am going to try to respond individually to everyone...

Thanks for the replies...

JB

JohnBlazeLTZ

Thanks a lot fast82z...

Yeah I asked about the H beam rods and he asked the same question..."Are you going to go over 750hp?" I said no way...probably not in a million years.

I was thinking that cylinder heads over 195cc-200cc would be too big to be street-able but from what I have read...215 seems to be the norm for a 383. A guy I talked to over the phone said:

"Sure...you could run lower but why put a 350 head on a 383? Its going to have extra air to move...and a smaller head will limit it."

the thing that bothers me is this...when my friend built a SC'd Blue Oval product named after a wild horse....he had a screaming intake and a huge TB and a lot of boost. It was a dog around town and off the line. When the upper RPMs came on...that thing screamed at the top end but this is NOT the behavior I want. I want a stoplight to stoplight car. I want it to drive effortlessly around town and not dog out cruising the streets. I want the instant take off and excellent drive-ability down low that FI offers yet have the added benefit of a little extra blown air. It doesn't have to be a lot extra...just enough to be a difference maker.

I honestly went into this idea thinking 430HP and near 500ft. lbs. of TQ would be pretty decent...the engine guys I talked to said that I was way low on my power estimates though. One guy said the same thing as you:

"Look man...an engine like what your talking about could see an easy 400hp/500ft.lbs without a blower...when you force induct it...you going to see 500hp for sure and closer to 600ft.lbs. so you should adjust your goals a little bit because even a low 8lbs of boost is going to get that engine going..."

Let me ask you this...what effect would putting the Edel. TBI intake, a large bore TB and a stock set of heads do on an engine of this caliber? It would limit it a great deal right?

Thanks again,
John

JohnBlazeLTZ

Hi Orr...that is exactly it. 430-450 with 500ft.lbs. That is all I am actually after. I know that I will need a better combo down the road but the upfront costs are hindering. I would be ok for a while with an engine that is capable of 600+ hp and 550ft. lbs of TQ but actually only putting out 375-400hp and 450+ft lbs. I know later I can upgrade the top end and enhance the power figures down the road. I am just thinking that I won't be able to get the best and baddest top end parts on the planet right away...that the engine may have to start out its life as quiet little mouse at first. ~

Thanks for the reply man...please feel free to offer more advice and additional insight.

Take care,

JB

JohnBlazeLTZ

Wow man...I am impressed. Your set up sounds really sick. I wish I could've done a turbo but years ago I bought this supercharger set up before I REALLY knew anything about it and now I am kind of stuck using it. I have tried to sell it and no one has bought it for what I need out of it...so I better just use it to my advantage now.

When you say you get it going to 5500rpm...does that mean you have a smaller street style intake on it? I am concerned that these single plane manifold that are advertised for making power between 3K RPM and up to 9K RPM are going to be way too big unless I use more boost. I am really not looking to get too much more past 8-10 lbs. of boost...TOPS.

What is an "hsr intake".

Thanks again...please feel free to chime in with more advice soon.

JB

JohnBlazeLTZ

Hi Aaron...

Thanks for the input. You are exactly right...I am just trying to figure out what to put on the top end of the engine and not be flat out drag.

Honestly I just hoped for 430hp and near 500ft. lbs. or TQ. As far as the top end goes...I only have an Edel. TBI 2 barrel intake, stock 193 heads and a 2 barrel TB. I realize that these aren't true power parts...but I may have to settle for an engine that is operating far under it power potential due to budget restrictions. I will be ok with that...because one day I want to upgrade the top end to something more fitting of its true ability.

Also...I am not sure what some of the abbreviations mean for the intakes you mentioned. Sorry I am just not familiar with the Intakes. I have been seriously looking at Victor sinlge plane intake with a common rail MPFI upgrade and either a 4 barrel TB or a single blade TB with an after market intake elbow. This is what guys keep telling me to use...because they work better for Blown FI'd applications.

Thanks again and please feel free to add more input again.

JB

AKS_Racing

The intakes mentioned above are:
SR - Super Ram (TPI replacement intake that uses 16 1/4-20 bolts to hold the "pizza-box" plenum to the runners and requires the hands of an 8 year old to install efficiently)
MRII - later generation of the original Mini-Ram as produced by TPIS. The LT1 intake is a "take-off" of this part. Creates significant air distribution issues when power exceeds 550WHP.
HSR - Holley Stealth Ram (basically a tunnel ram that has been reworked with a forward mounted plenum to allow use of a traditional throttle body.
SP - 4 barrel single plane manifold that again has been adopted to a traditional throttle body feed (example in pic below).

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Welcome, your knowledge would be greatly appreciated here as well. Definately a good site here with lots of information and eager to learn ppl. You wont find the AFR drama either

His setup is exactly why i'm going to a turbo

JohnBlazeLTZ

Wow that intake is crazy...I have never seen anything like that. I bet it works good though.

Right now I am thinking about going NA with some basic 64cc heads...then when I upgrade the tope end...I will add the blower and push the engine more later on down the road. I seems that a lot of guys I have talked to said to sit and wait on the blower till you have the parts to back it up. Besides...the God's honest truth of it is...an engine like this even NA will produce what I am looking for power wise at first. Later on... I can upgrade and exploit it for all that its worth.

JohnBlazeLTZ

This guy's engine is what changed my mind about doing the SC'd 355 and go to a 383. I talked to him for a while. I forget what his engine is pushing but I thought it was like 500 or so. This is how I would like to upgrade the engine later on....as far as th Port FI goes.

AC

iTrader: (3)

JohnBlaze, on the heads note. Be aware that most if not all 215cc heads are a 1206 port head. There are many intakes that bolt right up to match a 1206. I actually ditched my Dart 215 heads (put my engine combo at 8.7:1 compression) and swapped to a pair of aluminum Dart Pro1 200cc heads (1205 port). The other differences in CC size brings my engine back up to a 9.8:1 compression. The TPIS intake I had ontop of the 215 heads didn't even come close to being a good match for the heads. The HSR intake I switched over to will be GREAT for the alum heads.

Other note is if you're going SC'd. If you're going above 6psi make sure you're considering an intercooler and around 8.5~8.7 to 1 compression ratio.

AKS_Racing

I find that 9.2-9.4:1 SCR is a great compromise on the street for boosted applications. I run in that range with xxOH injection and push the limits of a 3Bar MAP. I will say that I had great difficulty getting down to the lower SCR levels required with the 18° heads set-up and the larger cubes in my other vette with large boost.

I would be worried that mid - high 8:1 SCR will be somewhat "lazy" on the street with a SC, as most do not see much boost below 4000 RPM. Also, you can size the cam to lower DCR to allow you to run higher SCR with no worries of detonation on pump gas.
Aaron

AC

iTrader: (3)

Aaron, funny you say that. My 8.7:1 383 with the original 215cc heads and a P1sc was literally a DOG of a 383 SC'd car at the track. On the street I used to give what we coined "rocket ship rides". Obviously very violent launches and nice amounts of g-force on take off...LOL. The car was great fun on the street but IMO underperformed for where I thought it should be on the track. I don't want to place too much validatiy in the ET's and trap because my 60 ft's were embarassing (2.45 seconds on worst). That said, the new motor is going to be a 9.8:1 383 D1SC or F1 (minimum 12lb) motor. I just wanted to warn JohnBlaze on what to watch for if he plans on 215cc heads.

JohnBlazeLTZ

AC and AKS

Wow...you guys made me feel real good...because I was thinking 9.1 to 9.2:1. So...that's right in between where you guys said...LOL...so I must be good huh? LOL...

I am not sure what kind of boost I will run. I am perplexed by that actually. I am thinking seriously ...(if I even put the blower on at first)... like 6 at first...8 or 10 tops...and 10 wouldn't be till after the top end up grade. Let's face it...I can be pushing 10 lbs but if I don't have good enough heads, good fuel injection and a better intake system...it wouldn't be that great of a combo. Right now I have the Edelbrock intake and this:



http://www.superchargersonline.com/p...ber=V8F301-010

Its a Vortech SFI kit. It has (2) 30lb injectors and a Haltech computer that acts as an on/off switch via a vacuum line when boost starts picking up.

JohnBlazeLTZ

This is really good to know man...thanks. This the info I really need. I know what parts are what but the little details that other people like yourself know because you've already done it...that is really a good bit of info AC...thanks...

Your right...its not good to have mismatched parts...what started out as the best intentions come back to haunt you sometimes huh? I want to try not to spend money twice! ~

I can't afford an inter-cooler at first...that's another thing that has me thinking NA for a while at first....there are so many little things that go along with having a blower that I may not have the money to get. So...the blower is starting to look like it could be included into the future "Stage 2 upgrade" and may have to accompany the heads, intake and FI upgrade a bit farther down the road.



It sucks that I have had a blower kit for 3 years and never did anything with...(slaps self in head)

JohnBlazeLTZ

Man...you hit it on the head...this is the behavior I don't want. I am willing to hold off on the blower if I have to until I can get it to act right on the street. I don't want something that is going to run doggy around town. This is kind of why I don't want a huge intake and a huge TB...if I end up only pushing 6 lbs and only make 400-430hp...what's the sense of having a huge intake that operates up to 7-8K rpm's and huge set of heads? It doesn't have a huge amount of boost going through it...I figured a 5500rpm intake would probably be ok at first and some decent 195 or 200cc heads

What's "xxOH injection"?

What is DCR?

I imagine SCR means "Supercharged Compression Ratio" right?

I am trying to not only learn AKS...I am trying to retain too! LOL...

Thanks man..

JB

JohnBlazeLTZ

Point well taken AC. It sounds like you car acted like how I want mine to act on the street. I want it to sound obnoxious, be obnoxious, have good street manners but still light the tires at a 30mph roll. I am not shooting for the 1/4 at this point but...you guys give me the itch!

AKS_Racing

Sorry about that on the abreviations.

xxOH - alcohol injection; can be methanol, ethanol or isopropyl (IPA). This can be run in place of IC (intercooler) and is easy to do at lower boost levels and has the added benefit of increasing octane in the base fuel when under boost. I do this approach without an IC on the '87 vette, but IC on the '89.

SCR - static compression ratio. This is typically the compression ratio people reference when selecting pistons and combustion chambers (also referred to as mechanical compression ratio).

DCR - dynamic compression ratio is the actual compression that an engine sees when operating (also refreneced as pumping compression ratio). Certain cams will bleed off compression at lower RPMs allowing the SCR to "appear lower" and not cause detonation under high load conditions. This can be a positive or negative in boosted applications depending on where boost arrives in the RPM range. You don't want to be pushing fresh charge out the exhaust due to the boost increase.

Advice: I would use the blower and opt for xxOH injection. You will find that the boost helps to "overcome" the less than ideal top-end components that you currently own. Then when you have the funds, you can add a better top-end and you will already be pretty far along on the FI learning curve.

Food for thought.
Aaron

CHAMARO

AKS: What problems with air distribution have you seen with the miniram?

AKS_Racing

The MR starts having air distribution issues when the HP gets above 550-600 range. Once airflow gets to a certain velocity, it has great difficulty in making the turn to the front cylinders (1,2 and to a lesser extent 3,4) which results in the front cylinders running rich while the extra air in the rear causes a lean condition in the rear cylinders.

If you search on the internet, you will find lots of references to FI applications that ran into unequal flow distribution at higher HP levels. I cut / sliced / welded several MRs and improved the flow distribution, but nothing changes the fact that there are flow distribution issues once certain air velocities are reached.

I contacted TPIS regarding the air distribution issues, and they stated that the intake was designed around an upper end limit of ~450HP, and that the "average" guy will never see the much higher air flows that demonstrate the air flow issues. Basically it is not designed for the HP levels that some of us are trying to attain.
Aaron

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

i wonder if all front TB type intakes have that same problem, like HSR and TPI stuff?

AKS_Racing

I would guess any "off center" mount TB with ample boost applied would face these same air distribution issues, although I never had one much past 500WHP normally aspirated. I don't imagine you are going to push a LT runner intake (TPI) to that power level no matter what you do.
Aaron

CHAMARO

well crap, one reason i went with the MR setup was b/c it is avail in 1206 port option (unlike HSR) but i also plan on making around or above that HP mark boosted (14 psi). If possible id like to PM you with some specs and see what you think so as not to go off subject here.

AKS_Racing

You are welcome to PM me anytime.
Aaron

JohnBlazeLTZ

AKS...

What will be the power limits when you use a street intake or a dual plane that is only rated up to 5500rpm?

By the way...the last few post were very enlightening...thank you for your insight..

JB

JohnBlazeLTZ

OK...well...I just talked to Vortech and they said that it wouldn't be a good idea to put the A-Trim on a 383. He said it just wouldn't have the output for a 383. He suggested an S-Trim and a minimum of 10-12 lbs of boost.

The A Trim is only capable of 10lbs MAX and he said it would have to be put on with 6lb pulley because the cfm output is only 720cfm. This figure is FAR too low to push a blower on a 383. I told him I was going to use it on a TBI and he said it still wouldn't do it justice. He recommended at least an S Trim or even a T-Trim.

This is what I thought...that the A-Trim wouldn't be able to go on a 383. It looks like I will have to do a trade in to get a S-Trim and that is about 1000 bucks....

So...for now...if I and when I do build a 383...it going to be NA at first...I'll still build it to be blown but I will have to get 64cc heads or deck the ones I got already.

AC

iTrader: (3)

John, sorry to hear your found bad news. What you just experienced on the phone though saved you the trouble of finding out like I did. I built a monster of a 383 that breathed all too well for a Procharger P1SC. So I sold it and am waiting till spring to go either D1 or F1. If you're looking for opinions on blower mfg's I'd tell you look at Procharger instead of Vortech. Among the biggest reason in my mind is self contained oil head units vs. engine supplied oil. Good luck on the 383 build.

RevItUpZ28

iTrader: (1)

AC, I was wondering in what way was the TPIS intake (I'm guessing miniram?) not a good match up to your heads?

AC

iTrader: (3)

RevItUpZ28, I should have clarified. I had a TPIS bigmouth intake, worked over slp runners and a VERY worked over upperplenum. The bigmouth wasn't a good fit because it was a 1205 port intake, sitting on top of 1206 port heads. There wasn't enough meat to port. I also started blower intake manifold seals due to boost because the sealing edge wasn't there I'm guessing.

RevItUpZ28

iTrader: (1)

Oh ok, thanks for the answer. I was wondering because I currently have a Vortec HSR and I want to eventually switch to competition port AFR's. (195's if I stay NA, or possibly 210's if I go turbo). Since both heads are standard bolt pattern, I'd have to switch back to a regular-bolt pattern intake (non-vortec) and I've been on the fence as to whether to try the miniram or just another HSR.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

just remember 210's are 1206 ports and only the newest HSR castings can be ported to 1206

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Thirdgen has always been grind + weld, and corvetteforum wax + shine.

What can ya do.

-

This is the intake I built in august/early september. It's my favorite so far. I've had TPI (ported, siamesed, etc), 2 other singleplanes, a miniram, etc. I like this one.



-- Joe

CHAMARO

ha ha ha Nice! Is that a SP with a fabbed hat on a 4 bbl TB? Clear the factory hood?

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

It's a SP with a hat/elbow, and a LS1 throttle body. (80MM if I recall). 3" piping to my blower. It hugs the valve cover, fits under the vette hood which means you fbody guys will have NO clearance problems.

This combo makes tons of power.

-- Joe

CHAMARO

ha i dont know how i missed the tb there. looks good, did you fab the hat? i may have to go with a similar setup if the miniram doesnt get along well with the charger.