Excellegions

Does anyone know where I can get thick copper head gaskets for a 3.1l v6!?

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

I actually don't, but I question the need.
How much boost/nitrous are you using on it? Typically they aren't needed unless it's detonating. I'd solve that problem rather than bandaiding it with super strong head gaskets. All that would accomplish is letting the next weakest link fail, ie the pistons/rings.

2nd - The head itself could be lifting. What head bolts/studs are you using?
3rd - Before i'd go to a copper head gasket (just my humble opinion of course) i'd get o-rings cut into the head, and just go with that. The fire ring on a normal composition gasket will fill that o-ring and you're off to the races.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

Um, unless they're something like the Titan ICS gaskets you pretty much have to run o-rings with copper gaskets.

Excellegions

Im boosting a 3.1l and Im trying to achieve a goal of 15 psi boost on a stock engine. I have a 10:1 fmu and the msd 6btm ignition control box to retard the ignition for the boost. I purchaced rebuilt, ported and polished heads from Rebuilt-Auto-Engines.com and before bolting them on, I want to know if there are any other head gaskets out there that I can use to help withstand 15 psi. I was tlking with bermudez from bbs designs and came to the comclustion that the stock felpros and apr studs have a good chance of holdings, but I just to explore all if any options. Im learning this as I go, can you breakdown this o ring thing for dummies?

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

I was under the understanding that you can use normal composition gaskets, and o-ring either heads or the block (I prefer heads, since they are more replaceable than the block), and the firering in the gasket would fill up the o-ring space. This is just based on reading i've done, since i've never done it before i'll let Crossfire explain his take on o-rings.

I really don't think you're at the point where you need a metallic gasket. I'd use ARP studs and normal composition gaskets

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

I think that we’re confusing multiple things here.

Metal shim style gaskets are strong (they’re harder to push out of the way) but don’t seal as well as composition gaskets (they don’t crush slightly to take up the machined surface imperfections… to seal perfectly). To make up for that you coat the metal gasket with an assortment of sealers/add them to the coolant to seal the coolant passages, and cut an o-ring grove in the block or head that is big enough that you can tap a small piece of stainless wire into it, but it will stick up above the deck to press into the gasket locking it in place around the cylinder bore, better sealing the combustion gasses.

Most (all?) of the better composition gaskets have some sort of fire ring assembly (usually a wire ring wrapped in some softer sheet metal, the actual construction usually depends on if they’re intended to be used with aluminum or iron heads…).

There’s a third type, which is a composition gasket designed to be used with a lockwire groove, but these are not that common and usually only available for engines that typically see a lot of boost.

The Titan ICS gasket that I mentioned is sort of a combination of the first 2. It’s a copper gasket embossed with coolant seals on it’s surface and with the edge around the combustion chamber split to hold a wire insert so it functions like a copper gasket with an o-ring without having to machine for an o-ring and also seals well like a composition gasket.

Excellegions

I called the vendors for titan ics, they stated they have never made gaskets for the a 3.1l camaro and it would run me nearly $1500 for the research and developement. I will have to go buy the felpros to see if they are made with the metal fire rings. wheather they are or not, looks like they are my only option. I will use them with apr studs and see if the car handles 15 psi.

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

Good info!
Ok, so would it be a good idea to use a composition head gasket with o-rings grooves cut into the head? I figured the existing wire ring would be pushing into the o-ring area and help lock the gasket in place.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

I doubt that groves would make any difference with a standard composition head gasket, as long as it doesn’t impinge unevenly on the gaskets structure (in other words as long as it was all behind the firering… it will not line up with the firering since most composition gaskets do not have a round opening/firering, and the equipment used to cut the grove generally cuts a round groove, you wouldn’t want the fire ring going in and out of the groove).

No surprise that the ICS gaskets are not available, since there aren’t any serious race classes that you see a lot of the 60* 6’s, if there was that wouldn’t be a lot of money to spend for them to setup the tooling.

I’d be shocked if standard fel pro (or any quality composition gasket) let go at 15psi unless you had some tuning problem/detonation.

Excellegions

Bermudez from BBS Designs share your opinion. He strongly believes if I can solve detionating with the msd, the the internals of a stock engine should be fine. My worries began with everyone online saying a stock enine can never handle more than 8 psi. As we all know the 3.1l isn't a powerhouse, and the turbo is it's only change to make a real statement. Give it to me with all your experience, the bottom end is very clean, strong, and has 102K miles, I put a crane cam and I had the heads rebuilt, ported and polished. What PSI do you strongly believe I should aim for?

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

That’s one of those questions that there are 600 variables all having some impact what the “right” answer is.

Is it a street car that rarely sees track use, do you drag race it every weekend, does it get road raced regularly…? What is your tuning/building ability? How attached are you/determined to keep that engine alive? Pump gas or race gas? Water/alchy injection? Intercooler? What is the rest of the engine like (compression and cam are going to be a big deal)?

I can keep going but you probably get the point.

No matter what the answer to any of those questions is I would always start with something in the 5-8psi range and be gentle. Once you know that you have a good tune an aren’t going to rattle it apart there then where I go from there depends on the rest of the situation (those questions…). I it’s strictly a street piece that you just want to have more fun with than I would shoot for someplace between that starting point and maybe as high as 10psi. If this thing is a street/strip warrior, you plan on running some race gas, water injection… then I’d slowly start increasing the boost, see how fast I could go till I couldn’t tune for any more boost. Depending on some of the other answers to those questions that could end up being 15, 18, 20… psi until I either found the limit of what the dynamic combination can be tuned for or the physical limit of the engine or possibly of the drivetrain/chassis, then you beef that up and keep going.