luvofjah

iTrader: (2)

In the future, I would like to SC my car...

I think I got a great deal on this 749 ecm...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...195374224&rd=1

About the repinning... can someone explain this in basic terms... & what to do, do I cut the harness (only specific wires) from the car and redirect as noted in the tech section... difference between 2 and 3 bar map, I think 2 is good for 15 psi... etc...

I'm somewhat familiar with 730 ecm, but there is no door on this one... gotta take the case apart to get to memcal?

Thanks,

Raf

j88l98irocz

iTrader: (4)

that was a steal!

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

That was a waste of $15 for you.

1) You already have a 730 ECM which is what you want if using high impedance injectors
2) You already have the correct MEMCAL in your 730 ECM
3) All you need to do is re-burn the PROM with the $58 code (after changing a few values for your engine)
4) Re-pin about 5 wires at the ECM connect. No cutting any wires.
5) Fire it up and have fun tuning.........maybe run the $59 code from 59code.org

6) Check out the DIY PROM forum. I have talked about the many myths people say about the 749 ECM swap. It is much more simple to go with the boost code than people think.

luvofjah

iTrader: (2)

the site 59code.org (with or without www) does not come up...

Re Pin 5 wires... no wire cutting?
Please explain what that means... or rather exactly how to do this...

2 bar map good for 15psi?

Thanks,

Raf

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

code59.org
I have listed the wires in many threads at DIY PROM. Search for my username and $58. One version is in the stickies if I remember correctly.

Most users with a 730 ECM car should be able to fire up the car wit just burning the $59 code in their bin. It is the TCC and a few pins that need a change for being road worthy. Most users would never know the difference.
Many people start playing with the 749 ECM and wiring and screw things up when they didn't need to touch either one to begin with. ONLY USE THE 749 ECM IF YOU HAVE LOW-IMPEDANCE INJECTORS(requires more wiring changes because of the low-z, not because of the 749 ECM).

Yes, 2 bar map is good to 14.7 PSI referenced to atmosphere at sea level. In other words, a PSI gauge will read 14.7 PSI.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I ran the $58 code for years, and beta tested and ran $60 for a while (RIP Bruce). They both suck.. Archaic fueling routines, limited resolution, horrible support for manual transmission.

Once you get to the point where you need something larger than 36# injectors you run into idle PW problems. Batch fire + 2bar = ok in small boost smaller injector scenarios. And I had a lot of combos too.

$59 code sounds interesting. Since I just bought another blower, I'll look into that. I'm never going back to $58. Despite with some of my posts from a few years ago say. The tunability and driving differences between $8d and $58 are night and day!


-- Joe

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

I couldn't agree more about the functionality of the $58 code. I ran it for a few months and it is garbage every where except when under boost. The $8D code is light years better than the $58 code. I run the $8D modified for boost and couldn't be happier with it. I have heard good things about the $59 code but have never tried it.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

What are you doing with $8D for boost? Fuel via PE or did you hack it for a 2 bar map? I started playing with modding $8D a few years back but Bruce convinced me to switch to, and help him test $60..

The $59 stuff. I read some of the hype. Looks like the $60 project - some guys making fixes and changes to $58. Still not based on ideal gas law like $8D is..

I'd LOVE to be able to run a LT1 MAF setup. Too bad it won't work with a hei dizzy.

I'd like to hear more about your $8D mods! I'm running a powerdyne btw, on a 10:1 motor so 6psi is most I'll see without an explosion.

-- Joe

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

I re-wrote the $8D to handle 2-bar boost. The code uses the normal N/A stuff until boost where it then has a VE adder and VE multiplier for injector BPW vs. boost. A spark remover table for RPM and boost.

Interesting you mention Bruce. When I asked about the $60 project years ago he said it was dead because of no support (in a rude way). That is when I was using the $58 code. After disliking how the car drove with the $58, I sat down and did the $8D thing on the bench. It was all done without any help coding or testing from others so I will probably keep it closed. I am willing to give how it works to anyone that wants to do their own code, but I will not release the code to have people selling it on ebay and "tuners" selling it as a drop in boost code thing for the 730 ECM. The $8D is a good code base and using the BAUJP is a drop in with no required tuning except for the boost tables. It has a water/alky injection table for RPM vs. boost that PWMs the pump. It uses the WBO2 as the closed loop sensor. Other little extras here and there. Looking to add N2O PWM control soon. The 730 ECM is great in that it has many unused inputs (for 3 IATs, oil temp., exh. back press., switch for high octane ECM control) and outputs (boost control, water/alky, N2O, fans). I could go on and on......it is a great ECM. JP86SS did a great job commenting the AUJP code.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I was starting to work on something similar but I lost interest, couldn't get any support, etc.

I don't blame you on keeping it closed. If you release it, it will just end up in some modified ecm for sale somewhere, or being sold as part of mail order tunes as you suggested. Oh well.

I'd still like to get the MAF based LT1 stuff working.

-- Joe

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

If you want the LT1 MAF then it would be worth it to take a look at dimented24x7's (sp??) hack for the 427 ECM. He was/is using the LT1 MAF. I plan on using the 427 ECM with a 2-bar / 3-bar hack when the 4L80E goes in eventually.

lock

code59 works well. As a novice tuner I was able to make my turbo setup competely drivable with little effort. I struggled for months with $58. Its worth a try. The Autotune they worked out helps get things dialed in very nicely.

gta324

junkcltr : We have had contact about the 8D boost code before and I totaly understand if you keep it for you self, even if I would love to try it out.....

I run the $58 code with 65lbs injectors and have a decent idle quality, I have a movie clip on youtube from last year, se sign. I will try the $59 code this year and see if I can get better idle.

/N.

86Z

iTrader: (4)

you know when i first started out tuning on my $8D TPI conversion it was fairly easy and the car ran great, i added a procharger and could not get the fueling with an fmu and 30# injectors, the car would bog down with regular driving high map without boost, i then tried $58 and it was garbage, car ran like crap, i asked on this forum about $8D with a 2 bar map setup and didnt get much help, i dont know how to re-write code, now i hear about this $8D with 2 bar but i'll keep it closed because someone will sell it somewhere, well the guys over at code59.org have done a great job, the code is free (you can donate to them) i put it in my car and it runs great. much better then $58, oh and i'm using 42lb injectors.

jonarotz

iTrader: (26)

Can I get my hands on some of the 2bar 8d stuff? I would love to do this. I am not a fan of trying to tune the $58.

luvofjah

iTrader: (2)

I'm getting the procharger soon!

I think this is the best / cost effective route & with some support... I want to run low boost 8 or 9 psi to have a little fun with the motor and SC and later transfer it all to 350 or 383...

Now start finding pennies for injectors, ostrich, WB o2, etc...

So the "repinning" deal was explained kinda... pull some wire / pins out of harness & put them in other places...

Now where are the diagrams for which pin is what on the harness?

Again, basic explain please....

I went over to Code59 and signed up...

Rafael

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

Wow, I’m not sure what to make of all this, but it touches on a bunch of threads that I’ve been meaning to get back to so I’ll blurt everything out here.

Junkcltr-

Early on you seem to be saying that if you have a running 730 you don’t need to repin to run the $58 (or it’s derivatives). That is not the case, to run the $58 you have to repin the 730 to match the 749 pinout and then you can’t run any of the 730 code in it like the $8b. I’ve done both.

As far as your rewritten $8b code… I know where you’re coming from, I’ve had a number of good ideas that I’ve put out there to have other people unfairly take advantage of (hell, I was just informed 2 days ago that something that I’ve been working on with someone else has been stolen and patented by a third party), you did the work, it’s yours to do as you please, but I’d bet that _a lot_ of us would be thrilled to see that as a viable and maybe even further developing option. Have you considered releasing it under a creative commons or GNU type license? Sort of a here it is, feel free to use it and even improve upon it but anything that you develop based on this has to be distributed the same way?

Lastly, I’d love to understand what you guys are doing by “rewriting the code” to run new stuff in these ecm’s. I’m even a computer guy IRL and I still don’t really understand how you’re going about it. I’m sure that if I could spend 30 min with one of you guys that have done it I could get a good sense of it, but there is no one locally that I know of that has a really good handle on it to talk to.

$58… I’m a bit surprised that people are having all the issues with it. I’m far from a great tuner, and my first serious foray in to it was with my ’87 formula which initially involved some 165 tinkering and then a conversion to a 730 pinned as a 749 running $58 (with a 2 bar map while most of the time the car didn’t run boost, more to learn how to do it, I tried it with 36 and 65pph injectors), and for the most part the $58 ran _much_ better 165 (every mask that I tried with the 165 and larger than stock injectors pretty much sucked). With the $58 I had a bit of a problem with cold start (cranky starting for a while, and then it would stumble off idle for about the first 30 seconds it was running, I never figured out what it was but it just sort of went away with later iterations), and the car ran every bit as fast as with any of the 165 code that I tried and was more responsive to throttle input than any of the 165 code ever was.

As far as bruce and the whole $58/$60 stuff… I as a rule will not say something about someone when they can’t defend themselves that I wouldn’t when they could, but he and I had a long history (back to when both of us were running crossfire cars) and I’ve been pretty blunt about my feelings on the boards and they haven’t changed. As much as he managed to do for the whole ECM tuning thing he managed to do just as much to scare people away. If it wasn’t his way it was wrong, and unfortunately, when I was younger I had a great deal of misplaced respect for him. I can think of a number of what I thought were brilliant ideas to solve problems at the time that he thoroughly convinced me were a waste of time and totally going in the wrong direction which now I keep running across people that have tried them and are reporting back how great they are. Looking back they are things that could have easily been out there 10 years earlier if it wasn’t for his influence. When it comes down to it I could have gotten a lot more done and had a lot fewer late night “damn, that chip won’t even start the car…” nights if I just didn’t pay any attention to him.

I actually have a hope that now a lot of people will be more willing to share and develop this stuff more, like the 59code.org deal, though I do wonder if it’s a bit late to be truly relevant anymore (lets face it, most of us playing with this stuff are doing it in cars that can be registered as classic cars now, I know I have historic tags on both my 3rd gens now and my truck which also gets some ecm tweaking will be eligible in a couple of years).

I know that at this point I’m frustrated enough with the whole thing that I’m considering not even bothering repining the new project car for a newer ECM and just going MegaSquirt or totally commercial to save myself the hassle.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

^

Followed by lol;

There's still some hard feelings from you, of course, but it doesn't change the fact the Bruce was very open to all, but had his own way of explaining things. We all got fed up w/him every now and then. It'd be nice if those who knew him best would chime in to defend some of his ideas and work (RBob, etc), but then again, it's better we do not deter this thread into something other than what the original poster had in mind. If anything, Grumpy (pun intended lol, just kidding Bruce, RIP) and/or Doc forced us to examine things for ourselves. He was a true DIY'er, and what he provided was always open for the DIY community. Been tuning for quite sometime myself, for decades, and he always encouraged me to re-examine things from an entirely different perspective, and I must say, I learned a lot from him....


-Gaspar

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

It depends on what trans. and emissions are being used.

jonarotz

iTrader: (26)

Interesting...can you elaborate?

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

the injector drivers are wired together internally, no need to swap pins.

No TCC lockup

The IAC stuff - some say the pins need to be changed, some don't.

-- Joe

luvofjah

iTrader: (2)

I have a manual trans, no torque converter & I though I read the smog stuff AIR stuff is bypassed...

Raf

jonarotz

iTrader: (26)

Damn, so I swapped pins for nothing.

I am running a 4L60E, I didn't know that about the injectors and I have heard of people leaving the IAC pins alone. Maybe I will put the pins back to the 730 configuration.

AC

iTrader: (3)

My personal experience on this (yes, my car runs). I bought the 749 ecm, swapped the injector driver pins and one of the injector ground pins....thats it. So, after 3 pins being swapped, purchased a 3bar MAP, and run the $59 code all was good as of last season. No FMU, I'm using 60# injectors and a manual transmission. FWIW.

luvofjah

iTrader: (2)

Well, since I bought one for $5, maybe I'll use it and keep the 730 for later

Raf

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

For everyone wanting to use the $58/$59 code:

Read this:
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/diy-...questions.html

Now here is the table of pin swap stuff from that post (that is correct, but most swapping unnecessary)
730 ECM -------749 ECM

A8------------->A9 (ALDL data - Not needed to move though)
C1------------->B12 (VSS output for cruise - Not needed)
C11------------>C12 (Injectors 1,3,5,7)
C12------------>C11 (Injectors 2,4,6,8)
D6-------------->C13 (Injector ground)
E3-------------->E4 (IAC coil A high)
E4-------------->E3 (IAC coil A low)
E5-------------->E6 (IAC coil B high)
E6-------------->E5 (IAC coil B low)
F1-------------->F4 (shift light) for manual trans
F2-------------->disconnect (AIR pump solenoid)
F6-------------->F4 (TCC) for automatic trans


*************** Here is what really needs to be done ****************
\/ \/ \/ \/
F6 -------------> F4 if using an auto. trans
C1------------->B12 (VSS output for cruise - Not needed)

DO NOT SWAP IAC PINS (it does nothing.....stepper motor operates the same)
DO NOT SWAP INJECTOR PINS (if using high-z injectors)
DO NOT SWAP INJECTOR GROUND PINS (if using high-z injectors)

So overall...........just drop the $58 code in the 730 ECM and swap F6--->F4 if using a 700R4.

You will have to add jumper wires and swap injector pins if using low-z injectors and you NEED a 749 ECM for this.

You can run the $58 code with the 730 ECM and no pin swap if using manual trans., high-z injectors.

83CrossfireTA,
Did you ever just try dropping the $58 code in the 730 ECM with high-z injectors WITHOUT swapping wires? You would be pleasantly surprised.

luvofjah

iTrader: (2)

Great, I got a manual trans, no cruise...
So just get some high z injectors & no repinning!

Raf

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Wow, my post from 5 years ago. Yeah I always wondered if the IAC repin was needed. I know the injector repin was not. the "FAQ" though was based purely on schematic pin swapping. I didn't want to add my "guesses".

I'm back to $8D with FMU now.

-- Joe

86Z

iTrader: (4)

$8D....coool, FMU....puke

jonarotz

iTrader: (26)

I wish there was a successfull $8d code with 2 or 3 bar MAP capabilities. I am not code literate or I would work on it.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I used to say the same thing, but $58 sucks so bad and the resolution is terrible. If they had either a map system based on $8D that had two map sensors, a 1-bar with full resolution for under 100kpa, and a 2-bar add on for while "in boost" that would be the trick, or an LT1 style MAF setup that goes beyond the 255 limit.

A guy on Corvette forum has made such a beast work with $32 code in a '165 ECM using a Ford maf.

-- Joe

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

It isn't really the MAP table resolution having problems. It is the way the fuel and IAC control was done with the $58 code. It is just a bad way of doing the fuel & air control. That is why I ditched it so quickly.

The $32 code has its problems because it sits in a 165ECM that tends to have flaky 8192 datalogging which is necessary with boost / higher HP. Even with the LT1 MAF, one is limited in gm/sec.
The $8D has an extra input for a second MAP sensor. It makes it nice in that a cheap diesel ($15 brand new) 3-bar MAP sensor can be used. Excellent resolution using the stock 1-bar and additional diesel 3-bar (they don't do much vacuum like a gas MAP does --> more boost dynamic range).

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

I need to find what I did, somewhere I have a chart, maybe it’s even still in the formula, but I’ve never owned a car that got a 730 from the factory, for that matter I’ve never owned a 3rd gen newer than my current 2 ’87 TPI cars, so I’ve always had to start with a 165 or worse, and if I’m repining half the pins anyway, why not just put them where they should be in case I need to figure out what is going on for diagnostic reasons later on?

At the time there were a lot of people that were complaining about the IAC not working correctly so I believe I swapped those straight off not to have any debate there.

Just looking at that chart there’s a few things that don’t make sense but that is quite possibly because I’m not looking at the actual pinouts now, like how A8->A9 is not needed unless they’re wired together in the ecm, same with the D6->C13 (which I would be surprised if they’re wired to the same place in the ECM but anything is possible) and I’m actually more surprised that you’re saying that you have to do the pin swap for the injectors (and I don’t remember what jumper wires you’re talking about) if you’re running high Z injectors. Has anyone gotten away with using low Z injectors using a 749 on a V8 without a driver chip swap? I was under the impression that the stock drivers were only going to handle 2, 3 at most low z injectors.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

The 255 limit is not a limit with the maf, but a limit in what the maf code understands. Actually, more accurately, I guess it’s a table size limit?

I’m not sure that I buy that resolution is the problem with the $58 stuff. For a while I tried running my ‘165 with holden 808 code (the 165 is similar to the holden ecm’s but they were used in map cars instead of maf like here in the US), and I’ve run it in it’s orginal 1 bar setup, and tried scaling the map tables for a 1.6x bar (Honda stock one bar sensor actually goes a bit past 1 bar), 2 bar and even a 3 bar sensor with the same size tables and _really_ the car didn’t run any different. I would assume that the ecm just interpolates between defined values.

For someone that has never felt _that_ comfortable with this and right now is feeling like he’s forgotten as much as he remembers (it’s been 2 years since I’ve touched any chip burning stuff with the exception of a quick fix for something in the 747 in my truck, I turned off the closed loop stuff because I had a coolant leak and the coolant was fouling the o2 causing the truck to run funny anyway), can you explain what is wrong with the way the $58 does fueling (I’m assuming that’s what you mean by “fuel & air control”)?

Flaky? As far as I remember it’s none, it’s the slow connection or nothing. That being the case there’s still a few of us that have run the 165 + 808 +boost (with the map table simply scaled for the sensor being used) successfully. If you want 8192 datalogging the trick would be to get one of the newer versions of the ECM from a holden, which operates similarly (at least you can load it with the same mask successfully) but has an add on board to do 8192 communications (who knows if there is a data logger with a definition file that works correctly with it, haven’t looked at that for 3, 4, maybe more years).

The biggest problem with running the 808 stuff is that there is no prevision for TCC lockup…, but in my case I really don’ t care, currently the car is a 5 speed and that is getting replaced with a 4L80e + TCI box (in my garage) when I’m making real power.

Again, I wish I understood what you were doing when you talk about rewriting the code for this kind of stuff, since it sounds like the 730 is pretty sweet like you’ve got it, but that’s not really helping the rest of us.

I’m curious, could you run the $8D in a 749 and get the extra injector driver plus I believe that the 749 has some outputs that the 730 doesn’t? what would you loose?

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

I pull harnesses out of the junkyard and install them in my rigs. We are in the same boat in terms of not having a factory 730 ECM harness. You mention "putting the wires in the right place"...........at the same time most of the 165 ECM wire colors don't match the 730 ECM wire colors so what is the point?

It is a myth. It will work the same as not swapping them.

Pin A8 and A9 are tied together on the PCB so need need to move a pin there. High-Z injectors use factory 730 ECM wiring which is the same as the typhoon wiring. Low-Z injectors require the Sunbird wiring (add jumper wires). This puts the inj. drivers in P&H mode. Each stock drivers drive 2 P&H low-z injectors from the factory. In order to drive 4 low-z inj., one needs to change a resistor on each inj. driver ckt.

Overall, the injectors determine if wires need to be changed, not the 730 or 749 ECM.

The 749 ECM has two injector drivers. The 730 ECM has one injector driver.
The 749 ECM is missing one relay output driver that the 730 ECM has installed. I forget what this output drives. I would have to check my notes later on.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

The point is that I know where I started and I know where I went so in a pinch I can look up the original wiring diagram and figure out what’s wrong if I have to. And I know, I can use the same argument for how to figure out what is going on if I didn’t make all the changes, but consistency makes me happy when I’m looking at something a couple of years after I did it and am wondering what/why I did it.

That was never in doubt, but like I originally asked, can the 2 drivers even drive 4 low z injectors each?

Even if you’re running high z injectors I could see some advantage to wiring both drivers (more power available could open the injectors faster, and even if not that, less strain on the driver circuit, less heat, longer component life…)

jonarotz

iTrader: (26)

For what its worth, I just repinned my 730 back to to its original configuration and dropped the $59 code in and it worked fine.

Thanks junckcltr!

luvofjah

iTrader: (2)

Great news...
Now the wideband O2 and 3 bar map

Raf

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Rock on!

8T9 BANDIT

i have a basic question for all you tuners. all my mods in my sig plus 1.6rr's and a p1-sc procharger. whick ecu and wich chip/tune should i get. and were do i get it? i just want an easy answer and an easy solution. that should be feasible considering so many have already done this here.. thanx in advance, dave...

AC

iTrader: (3)

8T9BANDIT, well, I think the most popular method with a supercharged 3rd gen seems to be using the FMU that the kit came with, a 730 ECM (speed density) and the super_aujpv4 code. Wouldn't be a bad idea to get larger fuel injectors.

Mark A 91Formula

iTrader: (3)

Perhaps this link will help a few people, http://home.comcast.net/~p-928/749mods.html

Outlines mods to the 749 ecm for driving 8 P&H injectors.

I was an early adopter of the $58 code and I must say the biggest PITA was just getting the thing to idle right, after that it wasn't too bad, still haven't blown the bottom end out of the 305, tried switching to the $59 code last summer but time just wasn't on my side, had my primary transportation stolen and needed functional ASAP so I went back to what already ran acceptably well. Gonna try like hell to get the $59 running this summer.

ty1295

I think $58 gets a bad rap for idle as most people probably don't understand there are 2 tables that must be tuned. $58 has a F28C table which is closed throttle only, the normal F28 table is open throttle. If those 2 tables are not both tuned and a smooth transistion you will have issues. I guess you can blame the code some if you want.

Now $59 solves this issue with making f28 much larger table, and allows you to eliminate (via a flag) the switch to F28C for closed throttle.

This change has helped every car i have switched to $59 with idle even though I am sure $58 could be tuned the same it is much more difficult due to 2 tables.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

The problem I found with the $58 and idle was due to using the coolant pump control for the coolant fan. The $58 IAC control was never designed to handle such a large load on the engine when the fan is turned on.

Yes, both the closed VE and non-closed VE throttle tables need the necessary adjustments.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

So what is the solution for that?

-- Joe

ty1295

I think all the local trucks I do most the tuning on all have electric fans now. I personally have not had an issue with this. I could see an issue if you have a desired idle really low though.

My personal truck if I could get to idle at 900 rpm due to cam and everything going on I would be happy. So far I can't even tell when fans kick on over the exhaust let alone notice any change in idle.

How do the other ECM's "solve" this issue? As a group of code59 guys we only see a small part of the possible problems. Be glad to see if anything can be done to help -vs- just saying it's broke don't use it.

Again I personally have not had idle issues with electric fans. Now that I am thinking about it I do know of someone with dual fans that did, but he solved that by putting a delay timer on the 2nd fan, to soften the startup amp draw. I can say I assumed that would be a problem with all ecm's, so maybe there is a solution they used that could help. ??

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

I am sure getting the fans to work can be done. I just couldn't get it to work right with my setup. I reached a point of setting the idle high but never liked it (I hate wasting gas at idle...I run min. RPM and as lean as I can).

I am not trying to put down the $58 code. I just found that my time was better spent working with code that I was more familiar with.

ty1295

Being familiar with something helps a ton. I can say I don't have much experience with the other ecm's myself. Little bit of $0d/$0E but nothing else.

Obviously if 1 code fit all, GM would have done the same thing.