What do you guys think? Gonna be pulling the 305 in my '91 Formula very soon in favor for a 454-SBC, and although I'm already decided on a turbo charged application, the concept of the "F1" ProCharger somehow keeps getting whispered into my ear. Overall goal for the car will be a nine second, totally streetable (daily driven, but not a commuter) car. Both hairdryers can obviously get me where I want to go. Opinions.....?

Here's an F1 on a Mercury Maurauder, Click Here....

Here's a T88 on, dare I say, a "Skyline" lol, Click Here....

^ Both sound unfreaking real....

-Rob

 

well I have an f1-r.......its really just a matter of preference.....like you said both will get the job done.

If you're going to use a cog drive, be prepared to do alot of fabrication and hunting for special parts........

the advantage with the turbo, if you're starting with an existing engine is that you won't have to worry about destroying the crank snout.....and your accesory drive situation will be easier......if you haven't bought the engine yet and you decide to use the supercharger, make sure you get a crankshaft with a BBC snout

the f1 blower setup on a good motor, is brutal and vicious........I did it because cog driven blowers are just BA......and EVERYONE and their dog is building a turbo setup, and thats not how i roll.

 

Excellent reponse, thank you! Any vids yet of your F1 setup bro.....?


-Rob

 

ya, let me see.......this stuff is a little rough when i first put it together....

car running outside the shop

My f1-r blown 383 small block starts for the 1st time

My f1-r blown 383 small block starts for the 1st time

Dyno vid......wasn't running quite right yet, ONLY 20psi here

 

^ Oh my goodness dude, that is just freaking awesome....!

 

Both compressors are more than required for nines. It depends how you like to build things. Going the SC route requires a lot of money for the unit. You can get a brand new turbo for under $650 that will put the car in the nines. A turbo requires fab skills. SC requires a checkbook and someone that can machine pulleys.

 

t-88, it will make more power than the pro charger on a large displacement sbc like the 454. Also, you dont have to worry about belt slip/break/throw and boost can be controlled better via a wastegate and boost controller. much easier to turn a screw or press a button on a boost controller than it is to change pulleys.

 

I'm not sure what the compressor map for that turbo looks like, but I know the f1-R will put out 2000cfm, which will easily support over 1500hp......

either one is more than big enough, which is the way to go.....definitely don't want to end up with not enough air flow.

 

I severely disagree with that.......

by the time you get done with either setup its going to cost a large sum of money......

and it takes ALOT more than a checkbook and pulleys to make one of those blower setups work on a street car, you need to fabricate basically an entire accesorry drive, other than the PS pump brackets......I had to make the alternator setup from a few different pieces and some fabrication.......and i don't have A/C or any other accesories for that matter, so it can get alot more difficult.

The f-series blower WILL NOT fit in the engine compartment, you need to do some massaging of the wheel well........also, IF you plan on using an air filter (which the technicians (good ones) at procharger will tell you not to, because of the vacuum it creates) you'll need to do serious modification to the prop valve/brake line/booster setup to clear it.....here's how i did mine...

theres some more pics of othe fabrication required too....

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/powe...tion-done.html

you also STILL have to fabricate all the intercooler plumbing, and basically re-engineer the bumper support (I made a new one) in order to fit a front mount in the car.

 

This part (well, a portion of it) is already taken care of, as I'm getting an aftermarket Intercooler w/ducting resembling that of the '89 TTA's. Found a company that reproduces them (w/improvements made), but it comes with a pretty heavy price though....

Probably the only real benefit of the turbo (vs the F1) is the location, and the ability of me utilizing the stock hood. First Firebird can customize it's location right by the stock (albeit modified) A/C bracket....

Dude I have to say this again, that is a freaking AWESOME machine....!

-Rob

 

I am shocked that you haven't hit nine's with that much power on tap! It's only a matter of time though, of course. Are you contemplating possibly pulling the 4.11 gears from out back for a larger (lower, numerically) set....?

-Rob

 

thanks man, no the motor never hit its potential before i tore up the crank snout......It's almost back together now though.

those numbers were the FIRST time i had it down the track, only made about 3 passes on it (it was really busy)......the car wouldnt rev above 6500 (pretty sure it was ignition blow out) and thus was only making 20psi (it'll make 30psi, the blower was cogged to max out at 7500rpm).......same thing on the dyno.

when it was on the track, it was running on a 26" tire (i didnt have my 28's yet) so it was out of gear at 1,000' so i was pedalling the car the last 300'.....otherwise it would have gone quicker and faster.

the motor is almost done now, with a new dart little M block with billet caps and a callies magnum crank, and manley 4340 pro series rods........the crank has a BBC snout on it too....so we should be ready to rock this time, i'm hoping for over 4-digits at the wheel

 

Correct me if i am wrong, but i believe the f-1 and the f-1a blowers will fit under the hood. the f1-r i know that doesnt fit.

 

The f1 amd f1-a are 9" compressors,

the f1-c and f1-R are 9.75" compressors.......but it's ALOT more than 3/4 of an inch of clearance thats missing with the f1-R on the wheel well, hood-wise i'm not sure as i didnt have a factory hood to start with.....watch the video's i posted earlier in the thread and you can see where i cut the hood with the blower underneath.

 

Details, details, gimme the details lol. I don't want ya to give it all away lol (cam specs, etc.), but can you share a little on some of the valvetrain components used? Dynamic/Static compression levels? How she idles? Tuning (looks carbed, no)? More details, more details....

 

What?!? From where? I thought a turbocharger (just the turbo itself) is more like $1000-$1400. Are we talking about non-water cooled, no waste gate, journal bearing style? Name brand?

 

I dont believe in that crap man haha, I dont have any secrets.......I HATE people that act like babies and say that stuff is secret.

whatever you want to know.....

it has SS valves, titanium retainers, its a solid roller cam with about 515lbs of open spring pressure......comp cams pro magnum roller rockers, stud girdles, 1 piece push rods, comp cams blower grind cam....its 262/272 at .050 with .620 lift and a 114 deg LSA.

its around 8.5:1 static compression, i believe the dynamic is around 6.8........it idles at like 650-700 pretty smooth.

 

262/272 w/.620" lift, would that be on an LSK lobe perhaps....?

That engine was done right man, can't wait to see some street and/or track vids. Be sure to film some as soon as possible lol....

 

Speaking of F1 Prochargers, lookie what was posted on another thread...;



Any 3rd gen T88's out there gonna represent, or is it F1 ProCharger FTMFW....?

 

^^^^^^ Holy Mother... That thing left the line like a low 11 high 10 second car and then just took off. Who's car is it? Did steve morris build the engine?

 

^ Will Stevenson's ride, Click Here....

 

Yeah, you are right about the fab work required with the big SC. The turbo setup would still be a lot cheaper though. What does a BBC snout crank go for these days? How much is a pulley and belt setup?

 

it's not any cheaper.......thats BS....theres just not a "kit" of combined parts with a big lump sum price tag involved with the turbo.....its all individual stuff

want to build a huge turbo setup? ok now you have to fabricate or have fabricated a set of custom headers and the supporting exhaust setup......none of which you have to do with a blower.

it all evens out.......because if you're going to make that much power, YOU NEED a crank shaft like that anyways.....the BBC snout option is miniscule, but a callies magnum crank goes for about 1800 bucks retail depending on the size for a small block.........thats it, if you break that......then start designing your own crank.....

but if you plan to make over 1,000hp that will def handle it......and you ought to have it with either setup.....along with a good block etc.

it costs alot of money to make big power reliably....any way you slice it.

 

What ECU are you using? timing map?

/N.

 

He runs a carb.

 

this is how you tune it....

 

yes, it does have an MSD digital programmable ignition though, with a boost referenced retard curve that you can tailor to your needs, it has a 3-bar map sensor.

 

 

umm...that car is an f3.. and its a 509ci BBC. If you look on theturbofourms.com you'll see in on there.

 

^ Dude, no need to spew nonsense man. It's a third gen, and it's running an "F Series" procharger, is it not (I posted it for people to enjoy)? If you can find a 454 running a T88 (or any other size turbo for that matter) in a third gen, then by all means, throw it up and represent. I personally am contemplating either an F1, or T88, for my particular goal(s), but that's just me. If your T88 has something on backinblacks F1 then represent. Incidently, I also posted a video of both a Marauder and Skyline, both engines having little to do with the SBC....

-Rob

 

Didnt mean to spoil your fun, just saying that, that car was F3 BBC, thats a far go from an f1 and small block. If you want an F1 by all means go for it. Im just saying have fun with crank snouts, belt throw/break/slip, and expensive rebuilds. I do believe my car will have one up on backinblack's but i'm not one to talk about what i WILL have, I'll let the car do the talking when its finished. On race gas it will be into the 12xxrwhp range through a th400 and ford 9". And still be street driven 7 days a week, as long as its not raining. and f1 or t88 will cost you about the same way to start, but i believe the upkeep on the turbo will be much cheaper in the long run. Kinda like a nitrous vs boost argument. Good luck with the build i'm sure you'll enjoy it no matter which route you go, but my vote is turbo.

 

^ Don't get me wrong man, I've been leaning more toward the turbo the whole entire time, but 383backinblack just blew me away with his engine. I didn't expect him to throw up some videos of his ride, while underlining 800-RWHP, that is just truly amazing on his part! I could only hope to get results such as his with a T88 (remember, I'll be running a 454, but in SBC form, myself), but we shall see....

A lot of member's here know what they're talking about, and the tech on these boards has always been second to none (especially when Grumpy was around). Very few though can actually back up the theory with a dyno run, which is why 383backinblack simply floored me! Impressive would be an understatement, as it's freaking unreal. My cousin Gaspar took an immediate liking to him too, because he's a very stand up guy....

-Rob

 

the only way thats 100% correct is if you're assuming the ability to swap up to a 90mm or bigger turbo anytime you want.....which is true, but the same can be done with the fseries blower, they'll exchange them for a credit believe it or not if you want a bigger one.......

the whole belt throwing thing is complete BS......thats a myth perpetuated by retards who failed to align everything correctly, i've NEVER thrown a belt before.....and htd belts don't slip because they have teeth......you'll never spin an f series blower fast enough to make that kind of boost with a serp belt.....the crank snout is NOT a problem if you've done your research, all you have to do is buy the right crank......its not a big deal when you're in the process of building the engine, it might be 100 bucks more. It's also an advantage, having the BBC snout opens up a whole world of option for pulleys, ACC drives etc.....and you can get a blower drive hub with a 6 bolt chrysler pattern like i have and a 2" register which gives you like 50 years of roots blower drive parts that you can interchange as well.

turbo's have just as much special equipment that goes along with them......its just in different places. the main difference is that its driven by a fluid coupling, not a mechanical one.

PS.....i hope this engine doesnt have much to do with the engine thats listed on your garage page

 

thanks man.....its been work in progress as these boosted setups always are, and a learning process......when that thing was on the dyno as i said before it was cutting out at 6500rpm and only making 20psi, so unfortunately we only scratched the surface......the new block, crank, and rods are WAY stronger now so we can really lean on the setup without worrying about splitting the block in half.

 

Depending on the turbo you get, you can upgrade the wheel. The S400 turbo can have the 75,80,88, and 91mm wheels in the same housing. But i wasnt speaking about upgrading, i was refering to the actualy cost of rebuilding the same unit.


you must not no anyone making serious power with a centrif. blower then. Ask any serious PTRA/NMCA/NMRA racer and they can tell you all day long about belt problems. We're talking $50k+ cars here, im sure they know how to line up acc. drives. You go down the track one time and have to pedal a few times, tell me how the gears inside the case like you, and how well that belt stays on. Even BBC snouted cranks can snap. Unless you have a serious front mounted reverse F serious blower with support brackets, you're putting serious strain on the crank snout.

No, it doesnt, but thanks for letting me know its out of date. I dont spend much time on here as i used to, most my time is spent on NMCA or other related forums

 

i spent alot of time working on blown alcohol BBC's......im well versed in the ways of drive belts.......mine works very well.....and i also plan on trying out the sprag clutch blower pulley which basically eliminates all the problems you mentioned.....it just hasn't been around long.......take a look: watch the video prettty neat part

http://www.atiperformanceproducts.co...lley/index.htm

theres a very good reason why ALL of these parts exist.......because they all have their own applications and advantages......if turbo's were the end-all be-all solution to everything, people would have abandoned superchargers a long time ago.........and like i've already said, a centrifugal basically is a turbo.....the only difference is the drive system.

 

so i guess my question is, why are you rebuilding you motor now that sheared a crank snout, if you knew you should have a bbc snout to begin with...Since your so salty on blow alcohol cars and all, i would have figured you would have known that.

 

well since you're a smart a**....

it didnt break the snout off, it shredded the damper hub, which in turn damaged one of the keyways on the crank snout.

and why didnt i get one in the first place??? because the motor wasn't built for a blower from scratch, it was an existing short block that already had 4340 rods and a callies crank in it......didnt want to throw out a 1300 dollar crank shaft, and had that damper hub not failed it wouldn't have been a problem.....you can see where the material stretched and pulled over the keyways





the new setup is a purpose built short block.

does that answer your question?

this is what happened to the hub, twisted to whole thing.....

 

^ 383, what do you think of this crank snout? I have this forged crank w/350 4-bolt main engine (from a truck application) that I have listed for sale, do you think it might be worth keeping and doing something with instead....?

-Rob

 

if you want to make insane power, and you can afford it......i'd buy a top notch crank from callies, crower, lunati....one of the best companies. the margin for error shrinks like crazy when you get up there in boost.

its alot more expensive to do it again, than it is to do it right

 

383backinblack: Huch much timing did you have?

damn good nbs!

 

^ Hey, I remember you gta324, how is that blown Trans Am doing? I caught a couple of clips of you autoxing with it, but do you have any dyno videos of the car....?

-Rob

 

its locked out at 35 degrees.....and its controlled by a digital 7, it pulls timing on a curve i drew for it starting at about 12psi, and it pulls about .75deg per lb of boost, tapering off after 25psi or so (its only been to 20 so far) its a VERY safe tune.....hopefully whittle away at that on the engine dyno

 

Good advice. I've since scrapped the Motown 454 concept, as it would honestly be insane to spend that much money on a packaged engine, no to mention losing it's warranty because of the blower that I'm planning for it, especially when I can build an equally strong 350 using the block that I have sitting in my garage. If I do go the ProCharger route, I will most certainly consider a callies crank, but I'm honestly leaning more toward the turbo, in which the crank that I posted above should do just fine (once turned). Thanks man....

 

Ive been going thru this same thing for awhile. I wasnt going to go as big as a 454 sbc, but I was considering a 406. There are tons of options. For the money, Ive decided on a used L98 for now, and itll get built into a 383 or 395 in the future. Its actually cheaper to get a forged stroker crank than a forged standard stroke crank in most cases, so you might want to look at a 383. Nice little engine, and they can make some power. Im looking at getting a forged bottom end, and a big shot of spray, till I can win the lottery and get a procharger.

 

I'm not even going to go that far, to be honest. I have a 350 w/forged crank just sitting here, begging to be built. Gonna start plumbing the turbo onto the 305 while I build the 350. This is probably the best thing to do, as it will allow for me to learn RBob's EBL system (tuning the boosted 305), and once dialed in, I'll drop the 350 in and begin tweaking the tune. It would be senseless for me to do all this with a $10,000.00 crate engine, so I'm going to keep the '07 Z06, and build the Formula accordingly. Still going with a T88 though...



-Rob

 

Street Lethal,
If I can find the links I will sned them but look up Rick Head's camaro. As of a few years a go he was running an 89 camaro into the 7's on drag radials with a tt setup on his sb 427. i believe it was a motown but don't quote me on it. I found a link with the build up, not for the faint of heart lol.

http://www.fasteststreetcar.com/foru...ead.php?t=4596

I found an old post where you mentioned Rick's car so sorry about posting info you already know. lol. If you decide to go turbo are you deciding where to take it or doing a lot yourself?

 

^ Oh my goodness, Rick Head was the freaking man....!!!!!!

Check this out, here is his old Camaro when it was still just getting started, very impressive even at only this stage of it's life, Click Here....

Engine
- 427ci Stroker SBC
-14 degree Pro Action heads
-Two Dual ball bearing GT-76 Innovative turbos

Suspension
-BMR Xtreme Torque Arm
-BMR Chrome moly Adjustable Panhard Rod
-BMR Adjustable Control Arms
-HAL 12 Way Adjustable Shocks

Driveline
-Mikes Transmissions Ultimate glide w/Neal Chance converter
-Moser 9" rear w/3.55 gears
-Mickey Thompson 295/65R15 Drag Radials

7.66 @ 186 mph, w/1.37 60 ft, Dyno results - 1680 HP !!!!

 

Yeah his car wazs down right scary. I am sure you have something good in store as well so which ever direction you go we will be impressed. Although when putting slicks and skinnys on that Z06 of yours can put it into the 10's your formula has some big shoes to fill.

I still say go turbo but either way you will spend a lot. Are you planning on running an air-to-water or air-to-air intercooler? It would be cool to keep it a two seater and run the air to air and maybe alky.

 

Kinda off topic... but would a smaller procharger, like the P1SC, have the same problems as an F-1, like the belt throwing, and breaking the crank snout, stuff like that?