How much boost for 9.1-1 cr?
#51
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,665
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From: Benzie, MI
Car: 91 rs
Engine: Blow through 383, 10 psi, xr288hr
Transmission: Manual th350 ATI 3000
Axle/Gears: 3.50 9"
Re: How much boost for 9.1-1 cr?
What was weird though was, when I was in germany on the autobahn, I couldnt go faster than 120 without yellow-lining the tach. My buddy in his auto tpi 305 had no problem hitting 125 and said he still had a good bit more rpms.
The lockup sure worked. So its possible somebody before me swapped gears out.
The lockup sure worked. So its possible somebody before me swapped gears out.
#52
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 206
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From: Barrington, Il
Car: 89 ws6
Engine: 355 afr195, hsr,gmpp cam, hs rr,
Transmission: t-5
Axle/Gears: 3.08
Re: How much boost for 9.1-1 cr?
Not weird at all actually, with that kind of gearing you need the horsepower to push the car, I swapped my l98 in my car from my iroc and other than a cam swap and exhaust it was stock and i raced a friend with a 03' turbo neon with more boost and a few mods up top to see who was faster. Fourth gear i couldn't rev past an even 5000rpm but once i shift to fifth it started to pull again. My rpm's were around 3300 if i rememebr when i finally let off.
I burried the speedo at 140 and he was doing about 150 or so and i was pulling away vey slowly.
The moral of the story though is you need to have the horsepower to move a car with a lower gear at higher speeds.
I burried the speedo at 140 and he was doing about 150 or so and i was pulling away vey slowly.
The moral of the story though is you need to have the horsepower to move a car with a lower gear at higher speeds.
#53
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Supreme Member
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,665
Likes: 3
From: Benzie, MI
Car: 91 rs
Engine: Blow through 383, 10 psi, xr288hr
Transmission: Manual th350 ATI 3000
Axle/Gears: 3.50 9"
Re: How much boost for 9.1-1 cr?
Yea, guess your right. When I swapped heads, intake, carb, cam, exhaust, and put the blower on it, I think it did go faster at a given rpm, but I still didnt push it past 120 as I was running close to 10 lbs of boost at 3000 rpms. I didnt like to stay there long. Never blew up though......pistons were clean as hell when I pulled the 305 apart. Almost looked like lead on them.
#54
Member
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 206
Likes: 0
From: Barrington, Il
Car: 89 ws6
Engine: 355 afr195, hsr,gmpp cam, hs rr,
Transmission: t-5
Axle/Gears: 3.08
Re: How much boost for 9.1-1 cr?
Exactly. A motor with 500hp 500tq with a 3.08 rear gearing and a 400hp 500tq with the same gearing and same rpm range will not have the same top speed if all other factors are the same. Cutting through the air over 120 requires a great deal of power.
#55
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Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,440
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From: huntsville, al
Car: 89 IROC
Engine: 6.8 HSR N2O
Transmission: TKO 600
Axle/Gears: 9" Moser 3.50 True trac
Re: How much boost for 9.1-1 cr?
#56
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,206
Likes: 4
From: Western Ky
Car: Z/28..39 Plymouth truck in progress
Engine: S/B
Transmission: Manual
Re: How much boost for 9.1-1 cr?
With my roots blower I have a 6k chip and my shift light is set for 5.7k also it is a 5 speed......my torque curve goes to 7.2k but trust me I dont need that last 1.2k. The proof is in the pudding I have had the lower end together since 1986 and 60k miles with the blower on it .....I did break the end off my crank in 99 but it was because my belt was to tight
#57
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 13,622
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From: Orland Park, IL
Car: 1984 Z28
Engine: SLOW carbed ls
Transmission: TH400 with brake, 8" PTC converter
Axle/Gears: moser 9" 4.11
Re: How much boost for 9.1-1 cr?
well with stock bolts and balancing anything above 6k and higher isn't "safe" for the engine. That's not to say I haven't buzzed 7k before on a stock bottom end, but if you're making all your power below 5500 or so on a boosted motor it'll last a lot longer without high buck parts.
#58
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 25,790
Likes: 391
From: Pittsburgh PA
Car: 89 Iroc-z
Engine: 555 BBC Turbo
Transmission: TH400
Axle/Gears: Strange 12 bolt 3.42
Re: How much boost for 9.1-1 cr?
Cutting through the air over 120 requires a great deal of power.
i wouldnt say great deal of power, my bolt on L98 with 3.42's has no problem hitting 110-115 in thirdgear before i had to shut down with lack of road and gear. that maxes 3rd inthe auto trans for me and it wont go to 4th gear at wot. i've had it at 130 tho in OD when i had 2.77s and i was cruising at 3000-3500 rpms or so. plenty more in it. i only put down 254whp
#59
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 4,432
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From: garage
Engine: 3xx ci tubo
Transmission: 4L60E & 4L80E
Re: How much boost for 9.1-1 cr?
Umm, the definition of HP is how much weight you can move in a certain amount of time. So yeah, it takes more HP to go faster. Gears only matter because you put the engine in the highest HP range (more MPH).
TPI intake and heads are quite happy with a 218* I/E cam and the upper limit is around 5500 RPM. That is less than the moon.
TPI intake and heads are quite happy with a 218* I/E cam and the upper limit is around 5500 RPM. That is less than the moon.
#60
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Supreme Member
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,665
Likes: 3
From: Benzie, MI
Car: 91 rs
Engine: Blow through 383, 10 psi, xr288hr
Transmission: Manual th350 ATI 3000
Axle/Gears: 3.50 9"
Re: How much boost for 9.1-1 cr?
I always knew that about the power and speed but given the same gears, rpms, what slips?? I thought maybe tq converter but that wouldnt apply on a stick. If the motor is spinning a given rpms, dont the wheels have to follow?
#61
Re: How much boost for 9.1-1 cr?
What is Horsepower?
How do you define horsepower? Ask a car enthusiast and most of the time you'll get a blank look, a shrug of the shoulders and maybe a guess along the lines of "What a horse can do!".
That answer begs the question: What horse? A thoroghbred race horse that can carry the small weight of a jockey with a lot of speed, or a working horse that can pull heavy loads albeit slowly? Obviously there is a more precise answer. Car manufacturers, despite their reputation for being creative regarding the horsepower ratings of their products for marketing reasons, require a more stable definition.
Horsepower is defined as work done over time. The exact definition of one horsepower is 33,000 lb.ft./minute. Put another way, if you were to lift 33,000 pounds one foot over a period of one minute, you would have been working at the rate of one horsepower. In this case, you'd have expended one horsepower-minute of energy.
Even more interesting is how the definition came to be. It was originated by James Watt, (1736-1819) the inventor of the steam engine and the man whose name has been immortalized by the definition of Watt as a unit of power. The next time you complain about the landlord using only 20 watt light bulbs in the hall, you are honoring the same man.
To help sell his steam engines, Watt needed a way of rating their capabilities. The engines were replacing horses, the usual source of industrial power of the day. The typical horse, attached to a mill that grinded corn or cut wood, walked a 24 foot diameter (about 75.4 feet circumference) circle. Watt calculated that the horse pulled with a force of 180 pounds, although how he came up with the figure is not known. Watt observed that a horse typically made 144 trips around the circle in an hour, or about 2.4 per minute. This meant that the horse traveled at a speed of 180.96 feet per minute. Watt rounded off the speed to 181 feet per minute and multiplied that by the 180 pounds of force the horse pulled (181 x 180) and came up with 32,580 ft.-lbs./minute. That was rounded off to 33,000 ft.-lbs./minute, the figure we use today.
Put into perspective, a healthy human can sustain about 0.1 horsepower. Most observers familiar with horses and their capabilities estimate that Watt was a bit optimistic; few horses could maintain that effort for long.
Although the standard for rating horsepower has been available for over 200 years, clever car manufacturers have found ways to change the ratings of their engines to suit their needs. During the famous horsepower wars of the 1960s, manufacturers could get higher figures by testing without auxiliary items such as alternators or even water pumps. High ratings backfired when insurance companies noticed them and started to charge more for what they saw as a higher risk. Manufacturers sometimes responded by listing lower horsepower figures, forcing enthusiasts to look at the magazine test reports to determine what was going on. In the early seventies the SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers) stepped in with standardized test procedures and the fiqures were more consistent.
Between 1922 and 1947, the Royal Automobile Club used a horsepower rating that was the basis for an automobile tax. The horsepower of an engine was determined by multiplying the square of the cylinder diameter in inches by the number of cylinders and then dividing that figure by 2.5. Using this dubious method, What we know of as a 385 horsepower motor found in the 2001 Z06 Corvette would be rated at only 48.67 hp! There is a metric horsepower rating, although it is rarely used. The two methods are close, with one SAE horsepower equal to 1.0138697 metric horsepower. One mechanical horsepower also equals 745.699 watts or .746 kW (kilowatts) of electrical horsepower. This means that if you really want to confuse people, you could complain about the 0.0268 horsepower light bulb your landlord has in the hallway as opposed to the mundane 20 watt measurement.
How do you define horsepower? Ask a car enthusiast and most of the time you'll get a blank look, a shrug of the shoulders and maybe a guess along the lines of "What a horse can do!".
That answer begs the question: What horse? A thoroghbred race horse that can carry the small weight of a jockey with a lot of speed, or a working horse that can pull heavy loads albeit slowly? Obviously there is a more precise answer. Car manufacturers, despite their reputation for being creative regarding the horsepower ratings of their products for marketing reasons, require a more stable definition.
Horsepower is defined as work done over time. The exact definition of one horsepower is 33,000 lb.ft./minute. Put another way, if you were to lift 33,000 pounds one foot over a period of one minute, you would have been working at the rate of one horsepower. In this case, you'd have expended one horsepower-minute of energy.
Even more interesting is how the definition came to be. It was originated by James Watt, (1736-1819) the inventor of the steam engine and the man whose name has been immortalized by the definition of Watt as a unit of power. The next time you complain about the landlord using only 20 watt light bulbs in the hall, you are honoring the same man.
To help sell his steam engines, Watt needed a way of rating their capabilities. The engines were replacing horses, the usual source of industrial power of the day. The typical horse, attached to a mill that grinded corn or cut wood, walked a 24 foot diameter (about 75.4 feet circumference) circle. Watt calculated that the horse pulled with a force of 180 pounds, although how he came up with the figure is not known. Watt observed that a horse typically made 144 trips around the circle in an hour, or about 2.4 per minute. This meant that the horse traveled at a speed of 180.96 feet per minute. Watt rounded off the speed to 181 feet per minute and multiplied that by the 180 pounds of force the horse pulled (181 x 180) and came up with 32,580 ft.-lbs./minute. That was rounded off to 33,000 ft.-lbs./minute, the figure we use today.
Put into perspective, a healthy human can sustain about 0.1 horsepower. Most observers familiar with horses and their capabilities estimate that Watt was a bit optimistic; few horses could maintain that effort for long.
Although the standard for rating horsepower has been available for over 200 years, clever car manufacturers have found ways to change the ratings of their engines to suit their needs. During the famous horsepower wars of the 1960s, manufacturers could get higher figures by testing without auxiliary items such as alternators or even water pumps. High ratings backfired when insurance companies noticed them and started to charge more for what they saw as a higher risk. Manufacturers sometimes responded by listing lower horsepower figures, forcing enthusiasts to look at the magazine test reports to determine what was going on. In the early seventies the SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers) stepped in with standardized test procedures and the fiqures were more consistent.
Between 1922 and 1947, the Royal Automobile Club used a horsepower rating that was the basis for an automobile tax. The horsepower of an engine was determined by multiplying the square of the cylinder diameter in inches by the number of cylinders and then dividing that figure by 2.5. Using this dubious method, What we know of as a 385 horsepower motor found in the 2001 Z06 Corvette would be rated at only 48.67 hp! There is a metric horsepower rating, although it is rarely used. The two methods are close, with one SAE horsepower equal to 1.0138697 metric horsepower. One mechanical horsepower also equals 745.699 watts or .746 kW (kilowatts) of electrical horsepower. This means that if you really want to confuse people, you could complain about the 0.0268 horsepower light bulb your landlord has in the hallway as opposed to the mundane 20 watt measurement.
#62
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 4,432
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From: garage
Engine: 3xx ci tubo
Transmission: 4L60E & 4L80E
Re: How much boost for 9.1-1 cr?
Nice picture. One important note is how the HP rating was done in the 60s. Many people compare todays HP ratings to those. They have nothing to do with each other.
#63
Thread Starter
Supreme Member
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,665
Likes: 3
From: Benzie, MI
Car: 91 rs
Engine: Blow through 383, 10 psi, xr288hr
Transmission: Manual th350 ATI 3000
Axle/Gears: 3.50 9"
Re: How much boost for 9.1-1 cr?
I heard that before. What formula did they use to use? So the 600hp ZL1 Corvette may not have been that high?
#64
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 7,981
Likes: 85
From: DC Metro Area
Car: 87TA 87Form 71Mach1 93FleetWB 04Cum
Re: How much boost for 9.1-1 cr?
The difference really was that in the60’s they measured the HP output without the accessories on the engine and without a complete exhaust on the car and called it “gross” hp. In the 70’s they went to “net” hp which is essentially similar to the way the engine is installed in the car. Last year they changed it again but it was more of a procedural change which interestingly, mostly hurt the hp ratings of smaller engines, and helped that of larger engines, but I haven’t really noticed Chevy inflating their numbers significantly even though the new method should give them some room on things like the LS engines.
The ZL1 quite likely made more than that, it was rumored to be not much less than a full out race engine and quite underrated.
The ZL1 quite likely made more than that, it was rumored to be not much less than a full out race engine and quite underrated.
#65
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 7,981
Likes: 85
From: DC Metro Area
Car: 87TA 87Form 71Mach1 93FleetWB 04Cum
Re: How much boost for 9.1-1 cr?
Unfortunately, I don’t believe there is a totally modern book that covers ‘charging well, but there are a few that cover the theory well. I’d start with McInnes, and don’t worry a lot about the actual models of turbos he discusses (about the most modern one that he touches on are some of the T3’s), and from there I’d go into much older stuff…
Hey, I’d love to see some serious, heavy duty tech on here, but partially the problem is that it could get hidden anywhere in the forums depending on if it’s engine, induction, chassis, body… and if you don’t have a lot of time to dig you miss it (though I do get a few people emailing me “look at this thread” on occasion). Second, I’ve found that if I start talking hefty numbers, math, theory… I get ignored unless I can hid it in something more mundane looking
#66
Member
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 206
Likes: 0
From: Barrington, Il
Car: 89 ws6
Engine: 355 afr195, hsr,gmpp cam, hs rr,
Transmission: t-5
Axle/Gears: 3.08
Re: How much boost for 9.1-1 cr?
'
i wouldnt say great deal of power, my bolt on L98 with 3.42's has no problem hitting 110-115 in thirdgear before i had to shut down with lack of road and gear. that maxes 3rd inthe auto trans for me and it wont go to 4th gear at wot. i've had it at 130 tho in OD when i had 2.77s and i was cruising at 3000-3500 rpms or so. plenty more in it. i only put down 254whp
i wouldnt say great deal of power, my bolt on L98 with 3.42's has no problem hitting 110-115 in thirdgear before i had to shut down with lack of road and gear. that maxes 3rd inthe auto trans for me and it wont go to 4th gear at wot. i've had it at 130 tho in OD when i had 2.77s and i was cruising at 3000-3500 rpms or so. plenty more in it. i only put down 254whp
----------
Ford has still been using this on the mustand fro over a decade now. lol Hence thier 300hp 4.6 cobras getting recalled.
Last edited by shocker89bird; 01-11-2008 at 04:06 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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