daverr

iTrader: (1)

there are few members on this board that drive their 10 second cars all motor on the street. And they are fewer members in the 9`s with all motor sbc that drive on the street. Just because u have a motor car that does 10`s u cant have A/C????? Turbos help with emmision??? How many ppl u see with a custom turbo setup keep their cats or their A/C for that matter??

Im not turbo bashing because i myself own a turbo vehicle. With engine technology where it`s at why do u need force induction to go 10`s, 9`s, and even the 8`s. No need to spool the turbos.

Drac0nic

Lets see here, you can make similar power with less cubes, smaller cams and smaller head port sizes? Besides, what constitutes a "street car" is highly subjective.

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

High duration cams generally produce more emissions, with a turbo you can get the same power with a smaller cam = Better for emissions.

Hey, be my guest, rattle off any members who street drive their 10.99 and quicker NA SBC cars, i'd love to hear about them. I don't think i've seen any on here.

Baddest305's shafiroff (sp?) 434 goes under 10 on spray, but I'm pretty sure it's not street legal. (and spray = non NA technically)

TurboTPI (I think?) has a turbo SBC which I think is street legal, and goes 10's.

IHI has a wild 383 that goes 10.9 ish I think. I don't think he drives it on the street anymore (and it's getting a new motor now...)


My personal definition of a "street car" (since it's such a loosely based term) means you can drive it through a crowded parking lot and not stall it, then gas up at a gas station, and drive it to church, get groceries, and go home. I mean, if you're mixing your own race gas, and it can't drive at low speeds, just because it drives on rural pavement doesn't make it a street car.

I think any SBC capable of running sub 10.5 or so is a pretty wild combo. Maybe some cammy LS1 strokers or something, which i'll give you- it's a big jump in technology.

But your generic SBC1, with normal induction, I just can't see it being street driven and going 9's, I think that's an exaggeration. Let me know any examples, and i'll eat my words (and religiously copy that combo )

B4Ctom1

please read this:

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/powe...o-350-ls1.html

it started as a response here, but decided it needed a post of it own.

daverr

iTrader: (1)

LS1 jump in technology????still has pushrod similar to SBC except prone to lifting the heads .break piston ringland, cracking the block.

my 426 sbc is not done yet , it should run in the 9`s all motor and i will drive it on the street. My turbo car idles with 10 inches of vacuum has valve lifts in the low .700 range yet i drive it on the street and to work in stop and go traffic. There is even wilder engine combos that are street driven.Research and you`ll find out.otherwise your just preaching magazine philosophy.

daverr

iTrader: (1)

5.3 block will break or wont last long before reaching the potential of the pt-106.Why would he use a stock crank?? A better combo would be using a world product or Dart BBC, OR at least a dart SBC .

Drac0nic

There was a gentleman on turbomustangs running a .040 over 350 with a 268H cam. Keep in mind the heads were 1.72 intake smoggers, and the pistons badger cast. I bet he pulled quite a bit of vacuum since it got over 20 mpg on the highway, with an LTR intake that didn't even have as much as a set of aftermarket runners on it. Oh yeah, forgot to mention it was a single digit car.

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

LSx's are a jump in technology. I don't need to argue that, I figure that's pretty much an accepted fact. There's a reason the heads flow a lot more, and they typically make gobs more power. Just because it has pushrods doesn't mean it's not a newer technology piece.

Tell me more about your turbo car, .700" lift is pretty big, i'd like to hear about that combo and the results.

268H in a 350, going single digits? Uhh, what's the secret? My xe268h in my 350 would be hard pressed to go basement 13's. Is this a turbo car then or..?

Drac0nic

Twin GN turbos on a 350 with 991 heads 1.72/1.5 valves, flat top cast pistons, 22 PSI and 25 on spray. (75 shot) Race gas tune mind you, but it still ran into the 9.6es on that setup, should do even better with the new combo (487X heads, different cam, aftermarket TPI parts and most importantly a set of TE-44s that won't be 100% maxed out like the GN turbos) Thread here hoping to see it in Car Craft one of these years.

daverr

iTrader: (1)

LSx heads flow more than say sb2.2, GB2000, 18*,15*???????
how many lsx motors make 1100+ hp all motor???

My turbo car is a GN stage 2 twin 60-1 turbos, it made according to Duttweiler 1100 hp back in 1995 . Not bad for a v6 .

Drac0nic

That's a stout motor, no wonder you were pulling 10 inches......1100hp on probably somewhere in the neighborhood of 275 CID.

daverr

iTrader: (1)

correct

Mdenz3

iTrader: (7)

personaly i'm parcial to Prochargers, I know i guy in the tampa area who is running a procharger on his Cobra at over 30lbs of boost and nitrous.... now thats a evil car.

MrDude_1

i was hoping to reply to this with a timeslip of my friends totally streetable, still has AC, completely street car without question...... but he didnt run a 10.9.... he only got to 11.0s...

maybe if it wasnt fuggin 77* at the track, he would have gotten the slip, but still 11.0s with 28mpg and no compromise in streetability yet, isnt too bad....


(oh yea, and its a ls1....)

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

That would be N/A mr dude?

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

Engine technology can be argued all kinds of ways. In the end, it comes down to displacement, VE, and the range of where VE is high.

Newer tech. tends to keep the VE higher over a larger RPM. That equates to more area under the curve or more HP over the RPM range.

A well tuned N/A engine will get 100% VE or slightly greater over a narrow RPM range. A boosted engine can do over 100% VE with a smaller cam and therefore is more streetable.

What does all that mean? A boost engine can acheive a quicker ET with less RPM induced stress and a smaller better MPG cam. You have to rev the N/A higher or go to more cubic inches to equal the boost HP. Either way, there are plenty of 10 second N/A engines. Compared to a boost engine they either are larger, rev higher, and if they rev end up with a big cam that isn't as street friendly as the boost cam.

Is one better than the other.......NO. It just depends on what kind of deal you get on a given combination usually. MPG comes into play also. Big cams tend to give worse low RPM street driving MPG. If the drivetrain is tuned properly then the MPG can be decent with big cams.

MrDude_1

yea...
i didnt even think about that..

yeat its totally N/A... no gas. no boost.

cam lope at idle.... beats you in the chest with the exhaust note during the burnout... (stock GM catback, with an electric cutout... quiet when closed, but LOUD when open)

the real diff is in the little things hes done... for example he has a BMR extreme rear swaybar... but instead of the loud clunking rodend endlinks, we figured out a custom poly bushing solution.
so he launches straight.... but we honestly forget that he has the bar back there... its silent.

anyway, thats offtopic.
point was, he makes the power, with total streetability and reliability... its a engine thread..
anyone who cant wrap their head around the idea of advancements and better technology are merely showing their lack of knowledge and understanding of the subject.

JoBy

Use that great engine as a base. Lower the compression a bit and add a turbo. It will be just as streetable and make even more power!

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

Nah, that is off topic too. it is a procharger vs. turbo thread.

The LSx stuff is advanced in terms of heads, PCM, and ignition. All that stuff can be applied to an old block. I don't really get the point here. Somehow this thread became about opinions more that facts with the old "my car is fast" or "my friends car is fast mentality". Anyway you look at it, new tech or old tech.......if you add boost you make more power. With boost you can run a smaller cam, smaller heads, less revs, etc than a N/A engine with the same HP.

I agree with JoBy. Put a turbo on that thing.

TurboedTPI

Your so wrong its unbelievable. Turbo cars will develope full boost way faster than any procharger will. Once a turbo spools its at full boost the whole time unlike a procharger that's boost is RPM related. Your boost raises exactly with rpm @ wot. So your currently running 15 lbs of boost but only at high RPM. Im at full boost the whole time, no matter what RPM @ wot. And yes a turbo will produce a higher air temp but if you have a good intercooler then it dosent matter. And i spent have of what a procharger kit (the way i want it) would have cost.

TurboedTPI

I can drive a 14:1 compression BBC pro street nova on the street too. It doesnt mean its streetable. We mean, it can sit in rush hour on a 90 degree day for an hour, it wont scare people cause its so loud, full interior, can take an off ramp with out worring about it, can get 20-25 mpg on the highway. See what i mean.

TurboedTPI

My car is 100% street legal. Even has an emissions legal cam(not even designed for forced induction). Thanks Sonix, i agree with you. And now that i solved an ignition problem (weak coil, causing miss in high RPM) i was having before, i should be mid-low 10's next season. I drive it to the track (60miles one way) run 10's, and drive home, getting 23-25 mpg. (all on stock wheels and drag radials)

x007

Let see,

Thats may be why you can see so mutch Procharger in the top...
How many turbo you see in the winner line on 1/4 !
Most winner car use Procharger.. You can see there is almost no turbo...

You want a winner receipe !

- Good block !
- Procharger intercoolled (at less F1) !
- LIttle nitrous shot to rev up quicly instantly !

There's no turbo to match this !

i'm Going 20+ boost this year heyha !
Does i say i run 91 octane gas whit 15psi, in traffic in summer time running whit a temp of 180-185deg!

TurboedTPI

What? In most drag racing classes, turbos are not alowed or are restricted in size or the car has to weigh more cause there too fast. And what do you mean "no turbo can match that"? Are you kidding? haha. Im done

x007

Your going to do 10s pass this year...
i'm going for a 8sec pass !

Lotek

nice car, turboTPI

5678TA

i can try explain this a little.. for the record, i have no experience of any power adders.. but i have some knowledge.. you see prochargers winning more often because it is more consistent with its power.. turbos on the other hand are sort of unpredictable.. if you let off a bit, the turbo will not necessarily make full boost and may spool down and take more time to spool back up and produce that full boost.. prochargers are right there with the engine speed and all it takes is for you to step on the pedal to get whatever boost for that rpm.. i'm not rooting for prochargers or turbos as i would take either one if i had a choice.. but for a daily driver i would want a turbo, for drag car, supercharger..

daverr

iTrader: (1)

my turbo car is also 100% street legal (lights/horn/tags/insurance). I use twin 60-1 turbos on a V6 u dont want to know my mileage and i even have gearvendor too

Do u run a cat??? because i dont.

TurboedTPI

No cat, basically just because i want the least exhaust restriction possible. It will pass emission testing if i put a cat on it though.
----------
hey x007, go on Precision Turbo's website. You'll see some winning cars.

IROCZZ3

I bet you'll go faster with a turbo.

But seriously, lots of guys at that level have switched from superchargers to turbos because they got tired of throwing belts, or breaking crank snouts. And they ran faster to boot.

B4Ctom1

yes with stock LS1 heads flowing stock what my AFR cnc heads do, with better air movement, yeah I would call that technology.

no more prone to lifting heads than any small block

breaking piston ringlands on stock pistons, his are not

cracking aluminum block, his is iron

any more apples to pineapples comparisons you would like to get all defensive about?

the 5.3 block or any of the iron LS blocks are unbelievably strong, there are already others running this turbo and the stock iron blocks.

Could it handle the full abusive force of a PT-106? no I doubt many aftermarket blocks could either.

As to the crank, we have already discussed this. likely he will use an aftermarket piece. If he doesn't, it won't matter this is more of a technology test, than a full effort, atleast in this version of this setup. there are already others over at ls1tech running decent single digits on similar turbo setups, with the same truck manifolds even!

Evil86Saleen

I will toss my two cents in.

Warning all of my boosted experience is with 5.0 stangs.

My little 302 with a small single turbo (T44, the smallest of the T4 turbos) set up makes 430/520 @ the wheels with a whopping 8psi and no intercooler.

Combo.
Stock used 80k block
Motorsport E cam (emissions legal little guy not much bigger tha stock)
Iron motorsport GT40 heads. (not much better than stock)
Performer intake
77mm maf
36lb squirters.

My best friend has the exact same year Saleen as me and the same combo the only difference is he has prted E7s, 20k mile long block and a intercooled procharger.

He is only making 370/380 @ 12psi intercooled.

My peak torque comes in at 3500 rpm while his is @ 4700. My peak HP comes in at 4100 while his is at 5000.

Basicly I just read a whole bunch false info from some people about turbos.

I have a full 8psi of boost at 3500 rpm while the procharger needs almost 5000rpm to make full boost.

Now the pros of the procharger. Easy install any monkey can do it, you can use your stock exhaust, and it will pass emissions as my turbo will not because you must remove the smog pump for the wastegate to fit and obviously the cats because of the downpipe etc.

http://www.coloradostangs.com/galler...0/60Dyno_2.jpg

http://www.coloradostangs.com/galler...cs_037-med.jpg

http://www.coloradostangs.com/galler...o_pics_025.jpg

I prefer the turbo for max power and the cool factor.

However I really like the Prochargers and cant knock on them either.

Personal preference. And anyone that thinks one is better than the other really needs to do some research on the pros and cons of each set up.

later

kyle

vwdave

A damn near bone stock L98 running 10's with a turbo is FAR more impressive than your supposed "8 second" car. Judging by how ignorant you are, I am highly skeptical of your claim.

MrDude_1

dave, sometimes you're as blunt and to the point as i am.

daverr

iTrader: (1)

how many head bolts per cylinder does a LS1 vs SBC???
LS1 pushing water unheard of

Do u know anything about SBC cylinderheads like SB2.2, gb2000 , little chiefs etc. ????? and how do they compare to LSx cylinderheads???
how many LSx make 1100+ hp on motor????
There are some SBC making more than that on motor.

by this statement alone
I also doubt u have any knowledge or experience of aftermarket blocks.

daverr

iTrader: (1)

U find a v8 with a turbo running 10`s more impressive than a car running 8`s ???

vwdave

A bone stock engine that runs 14.5 stock going 10's is extremely impressive.

A jackass on the internet claiming 8's with a built to hell setup isnt.

B4Ctom1

it has no less than the Ford small blocks which I have helped to build in this power level.

Oh yes, please, bring up the superheads.

I know that you can't find me any other stock head that flows this kind of CFM from a small block, especially one with this kind of air motion.

I would like to remind you that the engine he took out of his project was a nascar pontiac headed nitrous 385 small block chevy running 9's (at 5800 feet) and a real drive around street car. That motor as I stated will go on to live with an F2 abusing it for the rest of its life. I have no doubt that the 106mm/LS1/5.7/ironblock project he moved "up" to will easily outpower that even with less cubes, factory manifolds, and stock'ish heads.

I doubt you can find me an example of any, enough to say no, there aren't.

Of these engines you will be hard pressed to find me an example of, there are none that are using a stock head or even a stock arrangement, and none that are remotely drivable.

Haha ok buddy, Im not the one having to fend off people here, my experience in such things is not questioned. But I feel that mainly you are bringing this upon yourself with these wild claims.

I can tell you that small block ford blocks start stress fracturing at 500 hp, small block chevys start stress fracturing at around 600 hp, stock LS1's are closer to after market blocks such as the GM bowtie, dart little M, and world motown which start stress fracturing in the 800-1000 hp range. I would like to add as a side note, oddly the new warhawk, and similar blocks based on LS1 architecture have a much higher threshold.

daverr

iTrader: (1)

Ok thats nice. but how many head bolts per cylinder does a LS1 vs SBC have???


U ever heard of the super stock class??
Most ppl swap their heads for better performance heads.And SBC side has the advantage here. Since u like to compare ls1 15* heads to SBC 23* heads. Why dont we compare a LSx head to a GM 15* head Or SBC All Pro head with a 23* stock valve angle.

not quite 1000 hp
http://www.shafiroff.com/pro/472_950.asp

over 1000 hp

http://www.furiousracing.com/SBC-12/480.html

they are more example but that should suffice.
u learn something everyday.

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

Ok, this is getting rediculous now. A 480 cube small block that costs $50,000 ?? Geez. That would be completely undriveable, it runs race fuel only....

Alright, why don't we agree that small blocks can make 1000HP, but it's a really stupid idea for a street car, which I *think* was the idea behind this thread in the first place... (actually it was about prochargers and turbos)...
Anyway, moving on here...

Evil86Saleen

Agreed. anyone can toss money at a car or engine builder. It takes real skill to fab and design your parts and to push stock parts to the limit.

Big tired big money 8 sec cars do nothing for me. Stock looking street cars that are built on small budgets that can drive to the track and run the number and then drive home are the ****. I really like it when guys show up with DRs on stock wheels and then send the big money cars home on trailers. SWEET.

kyle

5678TA

i know what you mean.. we had a streetcar shootout on maui this past august and the fastest "streetcar" was a 10.300 second dodge dart.. had full roll cage, pro-built motor and trans, nitrous, top-dollar everything in there.. and a real-street driven camaro with only intake, headers, exhaust and ET streets, took him out in the first round.. and with a stick i might add.. and the funny part is that the dart went home on a trailer.. haha.. i cant really say much for myself because i was out the second round.. by a low budjet thirdgen with a 406 auto..

x007

I dont think i'm going to switch my F1 for a turbo
I dont like very mutch to use a trans brake, thats hard for almost any part of the engine.

I never trow a belt, i have bigger than normal crank pulley whit dual keys, but i agree, most ppl use 6 or 8 rib setup, for hi power engine its not enough, you need a 12rib belt or cog belt. Your not going to run 15psi on a 400 block very long whit a 6 or 8rib belt thats for sure.

vwdave

Doesnt Hot Rod have a "True Street" class which forces you to drive 30 miles with no adjustments, DOT legal tires, and pump gas? Now THAT is interesting. Any doofus can make a fast race car. But how many can make fast, pump gas friendly car that doesnt constantly need tuning?

JAYDUBB

TurboedTPI

Thanks man. These guys will will never understand. "8 sec cars are the only fast cars." Sorry we dont all have the money to build race engines. I use the stock shitty 2 bolt block and crank. I guess thats not good enough for respect from some people.
----------

B4Ctom1

I thought you might know what I was talking about when I said "no less than the fords". But I guess I can't expect people who spout off "SBC 4 EVAR!" like a broken record to know this stuff.

So I will draw you stick figures, the LS1 and Ford are perimetered by 4 shared bolt holes as opposed to the 5 of a small block Chevy. But just as we don't all run out and build dodges or big blocks with their 6 bolt perimeters, I have no need for the "crutch" of extra bolts to hold my cylinder pressure in. I use tried and true methods as devised by our ford small block brethren. So the number of bolts, or the common follies found on the internet of people "lifting" (why does that term have "get er done" written all over it?) head gaskets is moot to me.

No thanks, not interested in comparing fancy store bought heads on this kind of project. Unless you want to compare ported L98 or maybe even LT1 heads, your arguement is once again moot.


yes yes, you are a good student. But you brought back the stick someone else threw, where are my 1100 hp N/A street SBC's? Why do you insist on digressing to pie in the sky all out race only motors one of which is from some company nobody has ever heard of and neither of which don't make the 1100+ you claimed anyways?

Just because my grandfather made obscene hp with race only flatheads, does that mean my father never should have ever made the same kind of power with a streetable SBC? We are in a renaissance, like our forefathers, I won't just jump on any bandwagon, but LS1 is here to stay, it is the future, and it sounds like victory.

Add a huge turbo to a simple LS1 and make 1000? 2000? hp? Some are already. A member here on TGO, Monty, built a 427 SBC twin turbo vette, nice solid engine, two decent turbos, it made around 1200 hp. Basically one of the most well known and documented cars on this board as far as power production and no BS results. Guess what he is building now, I checked in on his site for ***** and giggles, will give you a hint, it isn't a sbc...

I don't want to **** up this thread here anymore with arguements over engines. If you want to sound that bugle, make a new thread and tell us about how much LS1's suck and how great going 10's with a sbc is. I will go there and we can discuss it there.

Here lets talk turbos and prochargers, because I have a couple of small block chevys, oh... and a procharger.

Drac0nic

a big +1 here. The LS1 may not have overhead cams, but I hate to break it to you not like they're new either theyve been around since the 20s or 30s. Heck, first gen firebirds even came with an OHC motor but it's not really talked about in the heyday of high compression large CID V8s.
We are truly in a hot rod renisance at the moment, people are into cars again and wanting to go fast. The new technology allows us to have our cake and eat it to. Between redily availible forced induction, ECM control and modern designs like the LS1 it's cheaper and easier then ever to build a car that makes gobs of power, has great street manners is easy to start regardless of weather and so on.
While I'm in the turbo camp, any power adder is truly a great thing if the engine is built around it (even a stockish engine) and will make it something super fun to drive yet very streetable.

5678TA

well i live on maui.. we dont have quite enough racers to produce that much interest in a "true street" class.. i would love to enter a race like that.. i may have to bring that up to the boardmembers.. the purpose of the streetcar shootout was to run real street cars.. because we do not have alot of racers on maui, they had to expand the rules and such.. if they limited to pumpgas, that would eliminate most of the "fast" importcars.. also, if they had the 30 mile drive, a few of the race-only streetclass cars would be out.. imports were allowed to run slicks.. the only real rules that they inforced was exhaust and tires.. the field would only consist of about 20 cars if it were the Hot Rod rules..

84CamaroSS

Wait Wait...... i wanna see this 600rwhp almost stock L98. I myself dont have a REALLY fast car only 400rwhp which is not stock by anymeans. Personally i think your lying about the horsepower or the engine.

I cant deny the power bla bla bla of turbos but you also cant hide all the benefits of the NEW prochargers. I personally would choose the procharger cause its selfcontained you dont dirty your oil as fast, no new exhaust/custom headers, no wimpy spooling sound or blow off, the sound of the gears are just awesome, much more street respect unless your talking to tuners.

I have friends on both sides of the arguement. I can personally say not one has complained about the prochargers/superchargers or lost a belt. If you know what your doing it wont fling off. But for the turbos i always hear about a broken wastegate, boost control, turbine, exhaust leaks, and so on.

My two cents is a muscle car sound have a supercharger. its like peanut butter and jelly with out the other it just work
And turbos for the four bangers/maybe V6.