firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Finally got the turbo I've been shopping for the last 3 months.
I should have all my parts by the end of the month, only a few more to go.

Got a Firebird a few monts ago and was thinking about a V8 swap, instead decided to go FORCED (guess I should've used forcedfirebird instead of firstfirebird, hehe) I usually hang out in the V6 forum, I didn't realize there were so many people running turbos here! Even though it's a 6er, the principals are the same, so I hope you don't mind some lame questions now and then.
Click on my garage to see some photos of the car, just how I bought it.

Here's some pics..


What I spent so far:
Turbo : $170 NEW
Intercooler : $75 USED
Powdercoated TB : $30 REFINISHED (won't make me go faster, but I though it was cool ) - Thanks to Gumby
BOV : $32 NEW
2.5" Polished Pipe with BOV flange welded : $20
Wastegate with 6psi spring : $82 NEW
3.6psi spring for wastegate : $17 NEW
Boost Controler : $19 NEW
24# Injectors, blue top : $79 USED (set of 8 w/10,000 mi.)
Paxton Fuel management Unit : $116 NEW
Adjustable Fuel Pressure Regulator : $27
Fiberglass reinf. silicone connectors : $34
Sweet T3/T4 flange : $0
2.5" tubing : $40 (had to buy more connectors 'cause I bought 3" +$25 from Home Depot)

Making a grand total of $701 out of pocket.
Could have done it a little cheaper, but I paid a little more for some items.
The paxton was $10 more, but it was worth it.
The wastegate/BOV was more because I liked the annodized finish.

I'm ordering most things on line, all prices include what I paid for shipping!

Still on the shopping list:
(X)Blow Off Valve(X)
(X)Wastegate(X)
(X)Fuel Management Unit(X)
(X)Larger injectors(X)
(X)Intake/exhaust tubing(X)
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I will try to document everything as I go, here's where I started.
sticky from daves12secv6 "how to install a turbo" :
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/v6/375802-how-installing-turbo.html

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I also want to publicly thank Daves12secv6, as he has help me tremendously thus far.

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Ordered some more stuff today so I edited my first post.

DemonKnightDK

whats the specs on your turbo?

maroon88iroc

iTrader: (7)

latching on to this thread so i can follow the progress good luck!

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Interesting question, it's a cheap e-bay unit made in china. It appears that it is an exact copy of a Garrett (I have two of those in my garage to compare to). The advertised specs are : .63 exh, .50 a/r with .57 trim. I came up with a .55 trim after examining it.
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Cool, thanx...
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First post is edited once again, as spent yesterday ordering parts.

dennisbernal91z

iTrader: (2)

Good luck. Isn't that a little cheap for a turbo?

All I hear is horror stories about ebay turbos. Hope it works, the best of luck to ya.

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

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Even if it doesn't last long, the turbo I have is IDENTICAL to a Garrett unit (externally). daves12secv6 has been running his for a while now and he's running mid 12's, the biggest problems seem to be head gaskets of all things (he's up to 16psi and reaching over 400rwhp).
I can always swap to a Garrett one once the car is set up.
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Not to mention everyone told me I was crazy for keeping the 6er, they all sait turbo is too expensive and difficult to do, so here I am being defiant.
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You guys must realize that the 60*V6 (660) has a forged crank and rods from the factory, so a piston change means I have ALL forged internals .

D's89IROCZ

the thing is though ... if that turbo fly's apart ...there goes you engine . I would hate to see that becasue of a crappy turbo. There are a few posts on them in here to look at .

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

3.1's are a dime a dozen, as long as you guys keep swapping to V8's!

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

Ha ha, I like that.

I wanted to try one of the GT45s on a bone stock 1985 TPI 305ci test / fab engine that I use for building stuff. As long as the block doesn't split in half then all is good. Besides, there are enough 305s around too.

The odd part is that I can find a good used name brand turbo for less than the no-name new turbo. It just takes longer to find a deal. For some reason I want one of those no-name GT45s to test out and take apart. Besides, quick times on a no-name GT45 and used up 305ci would be a lot of fun......nothing to lose.

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Yeah, as long as the compressor wheel is built fairly well, when I get the to4e apart, I will see if the comp. wheels are comprable to the Garretts. If they are, what would happen if I could use my Garrett internals with the cheap housings I now have?
The Garrett M24's that I have are the stock turbos out of a 300ZX, and BOTH exhaust housings are CRACKED. These came out of a running car that was upgraded, so who can say how much better one is than the other. Furthermore a 12 second V6 for less than a grand w/almost all new parts!
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People don't relize that a Garrett is also made of CAST parts! As I said before something like that is easy to reproduce, make a mold! The machining is also easy to reproduce - take some measurements and punch them into the CNC.

WheelsUp84z

iTrader: (2)

some of those no name turbos have habits of the compressor housing splitting at the seam, so even with good garrett internals, youre not really getting anywhere, but im interested to see it when its done, who knows maybe you'll have really good luck with it, and then you can have a sweet low-buck turbo firebird

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

Watch out if you take the T04E apart. Some of the magic might leak out. I don't know how well they are balanced. It seems early units had balancing problems. If the problem still exists then being off slightly when installing the comp. wheel could make things very bad.

If it were mine, I would just run it and not think about swapping parts. I don't think it is worth it to swap internals. The 300ZX TT units should have very different wheels than the T04E. Sure, both are cast turbos. Casting is a process and not easy to do to get the materials right (and cheap) for high stress units like turbos. Impurities, cool time, material, etc all come into play. The machining is the easy part with all of the good CNC tools out there. As for the 300ZX TT "M24" marking......I have never found a correlation between the "M??" marking and turbo size. I am guessing it is a material thing like on the turbines (read that somewhere before). Yes, I see cracking in the Garrett turbines on some turbos. I am wondering how well the materials of the CB T04E turbine holds up (CB = Chinese brand). You already checked the compressor housing for Epoxy at the cast parting line?

BTW, From the website spec. your COMPRESSOR wheel has a 100 *(2.07/2.36)^2 = 77 trim. Are you saying that you measured your Compressor wheel to be 2.2" inducer and 2.58" exducer? If so then it becomes a 73 trim.

I think the 55 trim you came up with might be for the EXHAUST wheel.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

I have heard and saw pics of the splitting of the seam from 2004 turbos. Anyone got pics of 2006 units doing this?

I wonder how clean the aluminum housing is in terms of casting sand? If it is fairly clean then a few slots could be ground and TIG weld 1" long beads here and there on it to hold the two halves together (assuming that they are STILL epoxied as of 2006).

The unbalancing problem these things had scares me more than anything. There are two ways to balance a turbo from what I have read. Well, the oiling problem that 89JYTurbo saw was scary too. It seams that they have this stuff straightened out as of 2006. All the bad stuff I have read originates in 2004 when they seemed to becoming more popular.

EDIT: I don't see any balancing slots in the comp. wheel of the two pics you posted. Is the balance slot on the other side of the comp. wheel nut (the side I can't see)?

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

I don't think they're on the front of my Garretts, either.
The comp housing is a single cast unit, no epoxy here.

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

junkcltr, here's a pic of the Garrett turbine wheel balancing points.



The slots you are talking about - do you mean a flat spot on the top, like this:

daves12secV6

iTrader: (3)

i have an old style xs power with a black tag,and the new style xs power turbo,and theres a huge difference in quality,the castings are much cleaner,and heavier.though the ex side housing could deff still be made a lil thicker,but i havent had any problems with mine yet.(going on over 20K miles).
when u look at the 2 diff turbos u can notice a difference in the compressor wheels,and the ex wheels are tighter to the housing in the newer turbos.and the compressor wheel fins are a lil thicker
the turbo i have on the car still spins as free as the day i got it,and has no thrust play or side to side play.
though i had mine looked at by a turbo shop and the xs power turbos flow slightly less then what they are advertised to

daves12secV6

iTrader: (3)

here u can see were it was balanced on the front
new style xs power



and ill post up some pics of the old style later tongiht when i dig it out of the closet

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

Yes, those are the balancing slots I was talking about. The T04E doesn't appear to have them. Or does it?

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Finally, there you are dave! O.K. here is some pics of the comp wheel with the housing removed which was MUCH easier than the snap rings!
(click to enlarge)




If you plug these numbers (which are WAY off from the ad) into the formula you get:
100x(8.994001/3.95413)=.439641 trim
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PS. jyturbo had his remote mounted, didn't he? If that's the case, I could see the oil problem, not to mention iirc he had his oil pump run AFTER the motor was shut down so it seems like the turbo would be starved upon restarting.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

Good pics. Those do show the balancing. It sounds like they have been working out the original design flaws and quality control problems. More pics would be great showing the differences between the old style and new style.
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Awesome pics. I see an air gap for the measurement in the second pic (inducer). What is the diam. at the very top of the wheel at the inducer.

Thank you, you just proved once again that I can't believe the EBay Chinese turbo sellers. Thanks for doing the measurements and pics. Could you post a pic of the measurement of the inducer at the very top of the wheel?

89JYTurbo had his twins mounted in the engine bay. He had them in the same place as the Volvos he ran for 7K miles before the SSAC units.

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Hey, if the trim IS in fact .44, won't I see boost at lower rpm's?
No the gap is because I was trying to hold the mic and camer at the same time, lol. I re-measured to be sure after I looked at the pics.
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You mean the actual wheel, not the fins?

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

I bet the inducer wheel measures 1.87" at the wheel tip. It looks like a To4E 40 trim wheel. Take a look:

http://majesticturbo.com/c-maps-3.html
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what is 8.994001? It doesn't seem to be inches or mm
what is 3.95413? It doesn't seem to be inches or mm


to convert inches to mm, take the inches and * by 25.4

EDIT: Ooopss, my fault you posted sq. in. So the comp inducer really measures 1.98" at the tip? That pic with the 1.98" showing and the air gap freaks me out. The gap looks to be .1 to .2" inches.

EDIT AGAIN: I meant the fins right at the tippy-top of the fins. The 1.98" showing and air gaps makes the fins look to be about 1.8" to 1.9" wide. Sorry about the confusion.

WheelsUp84z

iTrader: (2)

cm maybe?

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

Your math is fine. I was screwed up.

Is that value of 1.988" truly the width of the fins at the tippy-top of the fins?

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

I just squared the numbers:
100(1.9885^2/2.999^2)=.4396408 to be exact.
After reviewing our thread from last night I realized you were squaring the whole sum of the fraction in parentheses. If you look at the formuls again, you square each before you multiply by 100.
the formula reads 100(ind^2/exd^2) and not 100(ind/exd)^2 these two formuls will result in different answers.
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YES! This means I have a trim of 44!
Again, does this mean I'll be spooling earlier than a true 57trim would?

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

Nah, the squaring function (multiple) is communitive. That means (X^2/Y^2) = (X/Y)^2. You probably hit a button by accident while doing it one way and got the wrong result. Use whatever way you like it doesn't matter.

Yup, you got a T04E-46 trim there (measurement error gives 44 trim). http://majesticturbo.com/c-maps-3.html shows a T04E map for it.

The turbine defines spool time more than the compressor. That thing should spool fast with the T3 .63 A/R turbine on it. The stock 4-banger mustangs and 300ZX single turbos had .63 A/R turbines. The compressor trim won't make a difference in spool time. It is more about moving air and efficiency. Don't worry about the spool time due to the compressor trim being a 46 trim instead of a 57 trim. At least now you have a usable compressor map for your turbo. The Ebay data was BS and would have given you a WAY WRONG compressor map.

And look at that.......we even used the right thread for all your info.

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

The 300ZXTT also uses .63, that's where I got the other two that I have.
How hard would it be to change the intake side on one of the Garretts that I have? Would it be a matter of a housing and wheel?
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Yeah, no hijackin tonight!

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

The 300ZX TT (1989 or 1990 up) uses twins in a smaller T25 frame than the single turbo 1988 down cars (Z31). The TT turbos are physically smaller. The 300ZX turbine you have should have a smaller inlet flange than the T40E- 46 trim T3 turbine you have. I wouldn't even think of using one of the Garretts that you have unless you did a twin setup and swapped the T25 compressor over to a T3. At that rate I would run two T3-45 trims on a 3.1 V6.

I would sell the 300ZX TT units UNLESS they are really 3000ZX non-TT units and you are calling them 300ZX TT turbos. Does the compressor outlet and inlet have bolt holes?

When talking about turbine A/R the T-series matters. A T25 .63 A/R turbine is smaller than a T3 .63 A/R turbine.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

Hey, You mind buying a no-name GT45 and posting all the data for me? J/K

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Here's some pics and description from another one of my posts:
Here's some pics of the turbos I just picked up for $0, that's right my bud gave them to me out of a 300ztt, whatcha think? They say M24 GARRETT A/R .48 1-2 on the intake side and 687 97J GARRETT 272-2 on the exhaust side





And yes they have the bolt holes on eveything, they're not the stock ones, but what my friend upgraded to before he totally redid everything.
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Here I thought I was learning from YOU! Untill I met you, I was just going to throw them on the car!
Will the exhaust trim have to do with where in the rpm's I'll see boost?

daves12secV6

iTrader: (3)

i xcan atest to the extreamly fast spool up of these turbos lol,even with 4:10 gears they spool up quick.
im putting 2 of these turbos on my new engine.im gonna drop the rear end gears to 3:42 or 3:73 though,the 4:10s are giving me some traction problems,specially if its even remotley damp outside

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

Those look like 300ZX TT automatic turbos. You could run them if you wanted. As a pair they would flow less air than the single T04E-46 trim you have. They are T25 series from all the data I have. Maybe some can post more info on this. I am not an expert on them and never actually had one in my hand. The turbine should have a smaller bolt flange than your T04E T3 turbine. You will notice the compressor housings are a lot smaller than your T4 housing. Yeah, you could run the pair but I think TT is a lot more work and cost than a single. Just think oil lines (water lines for the 300ZX units also) and all the intercooler pipes.

Great thing about the web is everyone learns from everyone. I learned a lot from you, you learned from me. Now you can understand why I don't want to just go out and buy an Ebay GT45 using the seller's posted data.....because it is all wrong. Even the good Ebay seller's post incorrect data or mis-labeled data which confuses everyone. The tough part is that if I buy a GT45 and the measurements aren't what they should be then I am SOL on the return.

T-series size and A/R on the turbine have the biggest affect on spool time. The exhaust trim is usually sized accordingly so it doesn't seem to matter. On my 355ci V8 I have two T3 .63 A/R turbines and it starts to spool around 3K RPM. So that would be like a 2.5liter spooling one T3 .63 A/R turbine. I am not a good guesser, but if I had to guess, your 3.1 V6 will spool around 2500 RPM or probably even lower. In other words it will happen so fast you won't realize it because the car will be sideways and you will be counter-steering and not looking at the tach. Your V6 will be putting out more power than most V8s on the road. And you get a weight savings. Turbos are in a class of their own. They are cheap to buy and build, can drive around normally without the load whining noise, once you get on the throttle the engine effectively multiplies in size. So, under cruise you get good MPG and under WOT you get good HP. What could be better.....oh yeah, no $50 bottle to fill either.

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Why twins insted of one larger one?

daves12secV6

iTrader: (3)

u are dam close he should be spooled up around 2,300 rpm, i spool up around 25-2600 with the 4:10 gears.
well i wanted the msaller turbos since im gonna be trying ym hand at auto x this year,and i think the one large single will be to laggy.other then that the only other reason is cause i have to build headers anyway,since the heads im using have a diff bolt pattern spacing then the stuff im using now,really had it not been for that i woulda just bolted on the larger turbo.
im building the headers to sit the turbos way out front,i.e were the battery and the charcol can are.this will give me nice routing for the turbo to intercooler pipes,though the intercooler to the tb i havent quite figure out just yet.the down pipes will come up threw the headers and up along the valve covers to the turbos,though they will have a removable section in each so i can run open dump pipes that dump out infront of each front tire for the track
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oh since u were wondering about the other xs power turbos
i was told by somone on another board that runs the xs power t70 is actually the equiv of a garret t-61 so im quessing the t04s they offer would spec up around a t66 though they dont offer it with anything other then a 1.15 ar housing on the hotside

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

How would the gearing affect the spool-up of the turbo, it seems to me that the 4:10'2 would only make you spool-up earlier in the mph's - not rpm's
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I believe I have 3:73's, but haven't confirmed yet.
It's a "one wheel wonder" so I'll be changing my carrier anyways, what kind of carrier are you running, is it 10 bolt, would you want to sell it?

daves12secV6

iTrader: (3)

i belive 91 3.1 auto cars came with 3:23 gears.turbos work on load with the higher gears there is less load on the engine,yeah i still have the stock 10bolt,but i cant sell the 4:10's when i take them out,they have a horrible gear whine,i had goten them used for nothing so i didnt care,but its not something id sell to somone.

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Well, I just won a set of 8 24# blue top injectors on e-bay for $87 shipped, so I'll cross that off the list!

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

Have you weighed the two turbos to see how much they differ in terms of material? It seems to fit that they newer units would be better. These things really started to hit the scene back before 2004 and the USA is a huge market. As sales go up so does the $ available to refine the manufacturing process. I wish the seller's of these things would post real specs so you knew what you are actually buying.

If you look at the T04E-46 trim it works out that peak airflow is at about 14 - 16 PSI. I think that is what you were running with your first setup. I would say you had it just about maxed out. That T04E was a good choice for that setup for street/strip and twins are going to work great on your new setup.

As for engine load vs. spool time. I know with my setup it is tough to say. With the approx. 3K stall converter it starts to spool around 3K because there isn't a load with the converter slipping. I also use a CBV so it leaks if the engine is power-braked. It will only seal at WOT / no vacuum. I run 4:10s too. I tried it in the 1/4 mile but ran out of gear for my engine combo. I have some used 3.08s that are going in it this winter. 3.23s would be more ideal for my setup, but the 3.08s are free and I like using "throw away" used parts.

firstfirebird,
Are you going to use a fuel management unit (FMU) or tune with the computer/PROM? I think you are going to run out of fuel with the 24#/hr and PROM tuning. Without the FMU, I see 36#/hr to 42#/hrs in your future. Or you could do it with alky spray or add in a 7th injector in the 83#/hr range that sprays when under X PSI of boost.

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

If you read my first post, the FMU is on my shopping list
Dave tells me (through experience) that I'll probably have to use an AFPR also so the car will idle with the 24#ers.
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As far as the mfg. of these units, the Chinese want to make money just like the rest of us. My step-uncle is from China and he does imports of Chinese products and it's quite lucrative. Since these guys are buying these things by the shipping container load, they probably don't even know what they have, let alone the specs! You do realize that 80% of electronic parts are made in China - even the "American Made" stuff intregrades these parts.
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After further comparison, I've nothiced the Garrett turbine housing is turned on a lathe while the to4e's are machined entirely on a mill. Looking closely at the to4e instead of being nice and round, there are slighly angled steps - which probably is the reason for the lower flow.
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junkcltr, I didn't realize you are under boost already?!

daves12secV6

iTrader: (3)

with 24# injectors - 5 psi base fp,with an 8-1 fmu and hes good for 9 psi/300hp
anyhting more then that and it gets a lil tricky,best bet after 9 psi is gonna be a megasquirt unit,though it can still be done with a wideband and fmu,its just not as easy.
though he runs an sd setup,which im quessing wont be as easy to tune with injectors and fmu as my maf setup is,but the oinjectors and afpr/fmu should be alright for the most part.

lol atleast u wont have to deal with rich spikes when the bov opens,
lol every now and then i get a nice loud bang out the ex with a lil bit of flames out the tail pipes,which isnt good since my tail pipes end before the rear bumper.

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

1. Well how did you manage the 16psi w/stock ECM?
2. How has the Megasquirt been working out?
3. How much did it cost?
4. Have you heard of a "stand alone" system where you basically mount everything and the computer "learns" your system?
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I don't even know if #4 exhists, but my cousin is building a TTstroked 'Stang and he said something about it. He said it's expensive but easy to use.

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Some pics of the throttle body that Gumby hooked me up with, he did a nice job on the powdercoating, didn't he?






Pics don't do it justice, either!

daves12secV6

iTrader: (3)

#1 bigger injectors,with lower base fp,and a higher ratio fmu
#2 not in the car yet
#3 depends were u get it from,u can buy unassembled kits as low as 148$'s upto 300$'s for assembled kits from the stores listed on megasquirts homepage. http://megasquirt.info
also u can find assembled megasquirts on ebay as well ranging from 200$ for a tested assembled ms 1
to 400$'s for an assembled ms 2 with a harness computer cable mega stim
#4 mega squirt has something liek that,u data log and run the log files threw a program and it readjust mega squirt,not as real good explenation but u get the idea.i beleive the accel dfi system has something similar to this as well

daves12secV6

iTrader: (3)

actually i havent,but thats a good idea.
more around yeah after 14/15 psi i was harder to pick up more power with turbing the boost up,im a lil worried that the .63 housings will be a lil on the large side for the twin setup,figure 1.65L per turbo.though i was told with twins since the compressors are sharing the airflow demand that they dont have to spin up as fast to make the same amount of boost.and on the other hand i think the .48's would choke my engine above 4,500 rpm horribly.ill just have to wait and see what happens

have u tried using a 2/step and ignition retard to launch the car ? u should be able to build some boost that way,i can get about 4 psi with this method on my car.but if i hook good boost falls off,i have to get it to spin the tires for a few foot to hold boost off the line.though a lil higher stall converter would fix this.im betting even droping the rear end ratio would let me hook without losing boost

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Dave, do you think it would have been wiser to go with the Megasquirt in the first place?
Because if it is, that's about the same price as the FMU and AFPR together!
Would I have to go to the wideband o2 sensor to use the Msquirt?

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

I think your new engine will be fine with the twins and the .63 A/R T3 turbines. It sounds like a 10 second setup to me.

Nah, no two step or timing retard here. I run Cooper 275x60x15s on it all the time. I launch it at 1400 RPM to keep the torque down and let the converter slip while gaining MPH. Lauching it at the stall just gives a first and second gear smoke show. I am OK with that but letting on in 3rd gear in the 1/4 mile is not much fun. I don't really care what it pulls in the 1/4 mile but it is nice that I can now put the 3.08s in it and getter better MPG and probably make the 1/4 times better.
A 2 step and/or timing retard would help the launch but then it I would have to put DOT radials or slicks on it. I fooled around with the timing retard before on the street and it made the traction problem worse. Maybe I will get the itch to see what it really will do someday. Then the slicks and timing retard will happen. I like fooling around with this stuff more than anything and try to keep the budget low.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

Picking an ECM is always a tough choice. Me, I am a GM ECM person because I can mess with them. That isn't good for everyone though. I do have an un-assembled MS-II sitting in a box waiting to go on a bike or a car. Here's my thoughts.

The MS is great in terms of cost and what it can do. BUT, you may lose some control stuff. Check to see if they have the coolant fan control ready for it. Last I knew it wasn't in the code. That is a huge thing to me. Other than that it will do everything (minus the emissions stuff). It requires less tuning than a GM ECM because it is simpler. Also, the MS has the "PROM burning equipment" built in. So the cost is MUCH less to tune a MS than a GM ECM.

Yes, the MS will work with a NBO2 sensor. Yes, you can tune your engine with a stock NBO2. BUT, you need to be careful and always error on the rich side. What does that mean? You lose a little bit of HP but gain a whole bunch of reliability. Even with a WBO2 on my rig I run it rich at WOT.

Overall, if I didn't know a lot about ECMs and boost tuning I would go with the MS-II and decent sized injectors. You already bought 24#/hrs so you have a dillema. Either sell them and get 36 or 42s and go with the MS or MS-II (the MS-II is a lot better) or keep the 24s and go with an FMU. With the 24s you still will probably need to tune for best idle and MPG and boost HP. So that means a PROM burner (and a lot of reading DIY PROM board stuff..huge amount of time) or go with the MS or MS-II. The MS stuff is easier to tune because it is more simple.

In the end, if you are an electronics techno-nerd then you can buy a Willem PROM programmer for $50 and couple of 27SF512 chips and tune with TunerPro for about $80 total if you build it yourself. Learning how to tune that GM ECM will take months and years. Buy the MS or MS-II for $150 or $250 and have it tuned in a month. That is building yourself prices.

Just my opinion. Opinions will vary a lot of ECMs and tuning them.

daves12secV6

iTrader: (3)

it all depends on just what ur gonna do with the setup when ur done,if u gonna set this thing at 7-9psi and leave it alone,then i wouldnt bother with it.the stock ecm wont be optimal even at low boost but it does work pretty damn good,but ill say boost is adictive, before long 7-9psi just wont cut it anymore .
though since it would cost the same as the afpr and the fmu,i would just go with it so later down the road u can up the boost and tunre it more easily.
btw 24# injectors are good for about 345hp
before u make a decision i would deff read up on megasquirt and make sure u can deal with it.
the easiest thing to do is just run it piggy back controling fuel only.
pretty much u unhook the injectors from the stock ecm and hook them to the ms instead,and u can then tap off the exsisting coolant temp/tps etc.
this would leave the stock ecm for things like converter lockup,fans still functional.i wouldnt worry about ign timing just yet,the stock curve is pretty good for a boosted aplication,its actually quite conservative,i run mine at 12 psi with +6 degrees of base ign timing

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Sorry I didn't get back sooner, I was reading this:
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/dfi-ecm/338206-megasquirt-engine-managment-install.html?highlight=megasquirt+install
Seems like that this might be the way to go.
I guess I'm going to have to go through yet ANOTHER learning curve now!
I know that boost is addictive, I haven't got any yet and the wife is already jealous!
From what other people have said, it's about 50hrs of research and 10hrs to install. I also looked into the wide band o2's and can get one for about $200 : here's the link...
http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/innovate-digital-wideband-controller-with-sensor-p-41.html?osCsid=cb6ce08deb3df10d63bbd4948f391f10
and a fully assembled(by a professional) 3.0 for about $300.
So in actuallity it will be less expensive for now to go with the FMU/AFPR untill I get into higher boost.
.
Dave, what ever happened to your idea of adding a 7th injector? And do you know if MS is able to control that injector?