firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Oh yeah, the list of things to do is getting smaller :
BOV
Wastegate
Oil lines
o2 bung (might see if I can leave the stock location since I am using an LC-1 WB).

pairtoe

iTrader: (4)

wow, your really doing all your welding outside. i guess you really meant driveway project.

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Only when I need to, I try to weld as much on the bench in the garge as I can.

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Looking at the turbo when I got home today and realized the drain is about 2-3" below the top of the oil pan. Gonna raise it by 3" or so. It shouldn't be too bad, just have to make 4 peices and weld it to the four pipes.

vwdave

Are you using Flux-Core welding wire? That stuff NEVER comes out looking anywhere near presentable.

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

My Makita takes care of the ugly welds, lol.
Doesn't need to be pretty to be fast.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

I wouldn't say never. You can get flux-core to lay down just as nice a MIG if you have wire feed welding experience. I think it took about five minutes to get my flux-core welds looking as good as the MIG the first time I tried it. My MIG welds are good compared to most of the welds I see.

The thing that is making the welding difficult for him is the out of position welding. Welding on a well laid out bench is much easier than under a vehicle.

That is lookin good Firstfirebird.

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Thanx, I just wish I knew if I could get away with where the turbo ended up. I have't had the pan off one of the 60* engines and I might have to drill a few holes in the oil pan to see where the level is for my return line.
EDIT: I'm referring to my earlier post about the return on the turbo being just below the center of the crank.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

The first time I figured out where the oil level sat in the pan I used this approach.
1) measured a quart of oil for the area (LxWxH).
2) multiplied by the number of quarts required. (LxWxH*num_quarts)
3) measured the pan in the buldge section to see how high the area would have to be to match the oil calc.
Pan_H = (LxWxH*num_quarts) / (Pan_W x Pan_L)

The tough part is that it sounds like you are tapping into the front of the pan. You need to figure out if the oil-pan oil will be there when the car is on a downhill slope.

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

I can tap in on the side, just want to make sure it will drain so I don't get the "black smoke startup syndrome" that some people I talked to experienced with their install.

My plan is welding the bung to the pan before drilling through to avoid fire.

BTW : There are no hills here in South FL, we avg 13' here. At most my car might see a 10-12* slope.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

You could just use water, and fill the oil pan with the number of liters required. Just remember that there is also the crank and mains that hang below the pan rail, and can displace the oil some.

Easiest way to do this is to just place the return as high as possible in the pan.

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

That is why I think I'm going to need to raise it.
If I had a spare pan, I wouldn't be asking the question . I suppose I could take the pan off, but that's a PITA.

EDIT: I think I'll just try to get close calculating volume and see how close I am by drilling a hole.

The bottom of the turbo is just below the bottom of the center of the crank, how far does the crank dip into the oil with the engine off?

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

That is how I did it on mine. I had the luxury of putting the turbo higher and the engine out so it was easy for me. I don't think he wants to go that route. I wouldn't put water in the pan unless it was off of the engine. His is on the engine.

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

It could have been higher, I just made a boo-boo. If worse comes to worse, I'll just have to extend the four pipes. The worst part will be the y-pipe because it is welded on the car.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

That stuff happens. I spent 3 hours making the driver's side downpipe for my car.......stepped back and looked at.....and then threw it in the spare parts pile and started over. In the end, ditching that pipe was worth it.

When you make the oi return fittings keep in mind how hard it is to bend/flex -10AN S/S or -12 AN S/S line. If the line is a short piece it will be hard to get it on the fittings when the length is correct so that it isn't being stretched when fully tightened.

EDIT: If one end of the line has a 90* or 45* elbow and the other end is straight then it will make it easier to install and get the length right. I try to use straight ends when possible because they are cheaper, much cheaper.

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Can I use refrigerant copper? If I use SS, I will put my spring bender on it to get a nice curve without kinking it.
EDIT: I'm a contractor so I have planty of copper laying around that I can silver solder to the AN fittings, so laong as thay are brass.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

I am not sure. I never work with copper. I broke the bank and used -10 AN S/S line on mine. I didn't want to do it because it is expensive and gives it the S/S line racy look, but it is mostly hidden.

Maybe start a post asking what others think about using copper for the return line?

daves12secV6

iTrader: (3)

looking back at the pics ur turbo is to low, mine is up almost even with the water pump.the oil pan has to have the fitting up almost near the oil pan rail.

the best place to put it it is on the drivers side right below the oil filter adapter.
lemme see if i can diig up a pic of mine.

btw u weld the bung onto the pan,(very carefully so u dont burn threw and start a fire, i did mine witha full oil pan.DO NOT DRILL THE HOLE. once the bung is welded to the pan use a hammer and punch to puch the hole threw the pan,the punch will go right threw the pan with one good shot.this keeps any metal chips from getting inside the pan.if u drill the hole u will have to remove the pan to clean it

daves12secV6

iTrader: (3)

here u can see how high i mounted mine

and here is the ideal place for the return line
[IMG]]http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j39/lethalrides2k3/100_0432.jpg[/IMG]
pics of oil drain line




i higly recomend u use the braided an line its the safest way to do it, cause if u make it out of say copper or so and it breaks while ur driving ur sol.

u would need like two 90* #10's 2 pipe bungs and 2 pipe to an adpaters + a small section of 10 an line

daves12secV6

iTrader: (3)

i dont have a pic of tthe rest of it ( well i do just gota find it) but on that last pic right were u see the red on the bottom there sis a 90* fitting with another 10 an line runng back to the bung in the pan with a 90* fitting screwwed into that. it lines up perfectly. when u do urs make sure that the line runs downhill all the way to the bung in the pan.when i first did mine it was rather flat across and i would get some smoke every now and then cause it wouldnt drain right

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Thanx, Dave. If you look at the pics of yours and mine side-by-side, you will see mine is only a little low, that sux! Like I said prviously, I will just have to raise it by cutting 4 3" peices of pipe and weld them in.

By raising the turbo, I probably could get rid of that last ugly bend I had to make at the turbo inlet.

daves12secV6

iTrader: (3)

lol yeah it will still be uglu but not as bad,mine had the same kind of bend in it




btw see that dull black paint.
goto home depot and look for black bbq grill paint, the stuff is perfect it dosent burn off liek the other hi temp paints or the hi temp engine paints the sell at parts places.

the kid i sold my original system to still has the turbo on his car,been over a year now since these pics and the pipes still look the same way

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Im pretty sure that I will be able to get it nice once the turbo is raised, the bends I have just weren't tight enough. On that pipe, you could have replaced that kink with a slight bend.

daves12secV6

iTrader: (3)

yeah i had the same problem i was using pre bent tubing from a friends shop.
i bought a few lenghts of ex tubing and had him put a bunch of 45* and 90* bends in them, once u change over to mandrel bends u wont have any issues though. its so much nicer to work with. i9f u decide to get stianless bends stay away from 304 stainless its no good for turbo stuff

vwdave

I was going to offer to seam his welds up, just tack them up with the flux core and I'll seam it up.

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

It's not a problem to weld if in the radius on one of the stretched bends, just need a pipe expander. If you look at the pipes going to my intercooler, you can see where I did this to make the pipe nice and round at the joint.

Thanx VWDave . I do this at my leisure so it's not all that bad...
When I knock off the splatter beads, they look alot better. The pics are 5 megapixel, so you can zoom in on them, that close up of the WG flange is right after I finished welding it. I'll see about getting better close ups of the welds, though.

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

How was there a lot of splatter on the flux-core weld, though?

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Here is a pic that shows the pipe is expanded to make it round near a bend that is normally oval. Even though the welds aren't perfect, they will hold (this is after I sraped the splatter off). These were done probably a week ago and it rained something feirce last night and they were rusted today and I haven't had time to paint them yet.

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Well I fixed the issue tonight after 2hrs of manipulating metal, and I'm better off.
Look how nice and smooth the inlet is now, and I have more room to do what I had planned for the wastegate .





Pleas don't make fun of my welds, I had a tough time today doing all them on the car :/

ttypecamaro

iTrader: (2)

I remember welding under my brother's car laying on the driveway. I KNEW if I tried to take the y-pipe off I would break the studs off the manifold and open up a can of worms.

When I pulled the motor the y-pipe unbolted like it was installed the day before! Looking back... I would have tried to remove the y-pipe after tacking everything up so I would have better/easier welds. Welding upside down, in a tight space, in an awkward position, on dirty pipes, where you can barely see what youre welding isn't as easy as welding kneeling on the driveway beside the car (since I don't have a fire retardent workbench or a garage). At one point I closed my eyes and prayed while I squeezed the handle on my MIG trying to weld blind over the top by the K member.

Maybe I'll try to get a picture of the y pipe this weekend.

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

I cleaned up the pipe before welding to it with a dremmel, but it is still tough to do under the car. The tops of the pipes where I could barely see got piled high, lol. I kept my mask on, and that is another story in itself trying to keep the glass in front of your eyes with one hand and welding with the other.

My plan is to take the y-pipe off later and build it with mendrels, should I go with 2.25" to 2.5" or 2" to 2.5"? Actually, I would rather try to build my own headers and avoid the under-k route, like Dave's doing on his new engine. Just don't know how I could do this and retain the a/c.

daves12secV6

iTrader: (3)

while i have an engine on the stand,i could prolly build u a set out of mild steel to keep the cost way down. i have over 400$'s worth of tubbing in my stainless headers alone.
in mild steel i could get all the material for a fraction of the cost. there is room to get the headers around the ac its just a pain in the ***

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

I'll tell you what firstfirebird....you are doing a good job. I am impressed that you are welding all that stuff out of position in one of the toughest places possible with a HF flux-core machine. On top of that, you are fabbing a turbo system. Something most car guys are afraid of tackling.

I wouldn't worry about the welds. They look strong enough and will seal well. You are getting a lot of experience so once you do the mandrel bend setup, it will look better. I would be happy with what you have now though.

You found out the same thing I did. Sometimes it is worth it to junk something and spend the extra few hours to get it right which makes it better/easier in the long run.


daves12secV6,
I am almost finished fabbing a single turbo header for the "other" plow truck I have. I spent about $100 on it using weld-els from mcmaster-carr and some 3/8" plate for the header flange. The GT42 flange is 1/2" plate steel. It weighs more than a stock V8 TPI manifold but the heat retention should be great. I am guessing that you could do a V6 manifold for less than $100 in materials. Time is the tough part......I think I have about 30 hours into this thing including the design time.

daves12secV6

iTrader: (3)

did u buy an ebay gt45? id so can i have some specs on it, ive been tossing around the idea of just breaking down and spending the money on a real garret gt42r but if the ebay one is close spec wise i may just get one

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

More spatter than with MIG. The way around that is spraying the area with anti-spatter. A $4 can will last a long time.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

I came across a used Garrett GT4294 that I couldn't pass up for a little over $200. It has a big turbine A/R at 1.28. It is a "diesel" flange (turbonetics lists the specs for the flange) that is split. I made the header so it will except the T6 / diesel flange but I am making an adapter to install a Holset with a T4 flange. I want to use it as a test rig to see the spool time difference between the Holset T4 housing, Garrett T6 1.28 housing, and Garrett TV81 T6 1.39 A/R housing. I will probably post the header pic once it is finished for people to pick it apart in terms of flow.

I still don't know what the EBay GT45 units have for specs. I have searched but haven't come up with anything real. Closest I found was that they copy the Master Power GT45 with specs at TM.com.

EDIT: In terms of a race setup I wouldn't go with the Garrett "r" series. I have read stuff about thrust loading and taking out the bearing. For a no-dollar-limit race build they use the BB turbos. It seems most normal racers go with the journal bearing units. I have no real world experience, just what I have read about. Spool time isn't a big issue with a race setup and the proper torque converter / trans. brake.

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

I saw that stuff, but was skeptical. It really does work good?

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

Yes.

daves12secV6

iTrader: (3)

got any turbos u wanna sell?
yeah i quess a 5,000 stall converter will take care of the spool issues

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

No, I don't have any that I would sell. Well, I have one that I would like to sell but it needs a rebuild and I don't think it is worth selling. It is an old Garrett T18A40 83mm inducer with a huge compressor A/R and a huge 1.50 A/R turbine with a T6 / diesel flange. It looks to be a 1000+ HP unit that is only good for a giant big block.

I started collecting used/rebuilt turbos in 2004. Whenever I saw a good deal I would buy it figuring that I will put it on something someday. I had to tell myself to stop buying them because I now have enough for every junk engine I own. I would buy them because I saw used turbo prices starting to climb because installing a turbo was becoming more popular.

Yeah, a 5,000 stall should spool a turbo very well. That should be a real handful off of the line.

daves12secV6

iTrader: (3)

i could rebuild it myself,but that ar on the turbine scares me lmao,
yeah its gonna be a handful alright, 5k stall, 26x9.0x15 inch slick.i still dont know what im doing for rear suspension just yet,prolly a ladder bar type setup

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

The 1.50 A/R scares me too. I bought it without knowing the turbine A/R. Once I had it in hand I knew it was useless for all the engines I have. Maybe I will come across a big block someday.........or lots of nitrous to spool it. The turbo is old technology also. Today's stuff is much better than the T18Axx designs. There is a listing of a 1.0 A/R turbine for it, but it costs about $500. I have been keeping an eye out for a used one.

What are you installing for a trans. I have been looking for a 4L80E for a decent price. I am looking at one this weekend. Hopefully, it turns out decent. I have a pick-up truck 427 ECM that I am planning on using to control it. You are running a MS ECM, right? Must have a TH350, TH400, or powerglide in there.

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Hte to interrupt, but I will have pics here shortly. Got the BOV flange, WG, and painted the intake pipes. As soon as I get them abck on the car, I'll take pics.

Why can't Dave have a 700r4 and MS?

daves12secV6

iTrader: (3)

noep i have a 700r4 i just use a manual lockup switch for the street

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

Sorry for clogging up your thread with other stuff. Pics are good. Sounds like you will be up and running in no time.

MS and 700R4 is good. I forgot that it is a race setup and that TCC is no longer in use. You lose TCC with the MS unless someone has added the code for it or you go vacuum switch. That reminds me, Dave already said he is using a vacuum switch for TCC.

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Just breaking your stones, it's all good. This is why I started this thread, so people could be frr to converse without anybody saying PIRATE. LOL.

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Wastegate flange is on, ready to be painted and bolted...





BOV Flange also...


painted intake pipes...




Got to make some brackets for the intercooler, cap the y-pipe and tap into the stock exhaust. My plan is to port the WG outlet back into the downpipe, but I'm ready to get this thing running!

daves12secV6

iTrader: (3)

u need to trim that outlet flange on the turbo, and also i need a soundclip of that bov im getting tierd of my blitz bov and i wanna see how those greddy style valves sound before i buy one

its looking good
----------
umm just relized something, have u tried turning the sterring whell to full lock in both directions with the downpipe installed??? it looks like it may hit

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

I know the flange needs trimming, it interferes with the bolts for the inlet flange. I will get you some sound clips, but all I got for recoring is my laptop mic and digi camera on video.

I have been turning the wheel lock to lock often to keep things clear, in fact it was locked in the pic (probably why it looks close). I planned on staying between the a/c lines and radiator hose that are routed to clear the steering, just to be safe. I actually had to tweak the lines so they didn't touch the downpipe.

pairtoe

iTrader: (4)

what else do you have left to do? or have you already started it yet.