This topic is for philosophical debate. Just posted this to kick around some ideas. I also want to say my knowledge of turbo systems is minimal so dont laugh if this is totally stupid.

ok, for some reason i started thinking about this last night. i was trying to come up with a cheaper way to put turbos on a thirdgen (or any car with limited space underhood) so i came up with the idea of a divorced (seperated) turbo setup. Have the exhaust turbine housing somewhere in the normal exhaust routing of the car. then put the compessor part anywhere else in the car. somewhere that is convient in relation to the intake tract of the car. Then connect the two turbines with some sort of fluid drive. I was thinking of just have a smaller impeller on each of the 2 turbines that spin on a shaft that is driven or drives the larger turbine. the impellers could be driven by any sort of fluid with a high heat tolerance, such as trans fluid or synthetic oil. You could connect the impellers with high pressure steel braided hose with AN fittings on them.

The system works like this: the exhaust spins the exhaust turbine, that spins the exhaust impeller. that impeller drives fluid through the lines to the compressor impeller. that turns the compressor turbine. walla, a fluid driven divorced turbo system.

thats the basic idea. here are the benefits that i have come up with over a traditional turbo.

1. easier to place the system in the car because the turbines could be placed pretty much wherever there is room. plus the two seperate turbines are smaller then a single turbo so you have more options. Also you dont hav to worry about rotuing the exhaust in a way that will make it possible to route the intake tubing. this relates to the next plus.
2. no custom turbo headers. you could run a regular style header that just has flanges to attach a turbo. Im sure somebody makes a thick wall header that would work. plus there are already a ton of headers out there for different cars, so no additional R&D work would be needed to come up with a dedicated turbo header with limited market appeal.
3. No massive heat build up in the compressor. this would reduce the need for a intercooler, as well as making the intake routing much simpler.
4. You could run 2 smaller exhaust turbines that drive a single larger compressor turbine. That way it would be easier to run a single turbo style setup. You could also run different size exhaust turbines that power a single compressor so you have the quick spooling advantages of a twin setup with the benefits of a single setup as well (my knowledge of different turbo setups is limited and im not quite sure what the advantages of the single setup are)

So anyway, there is my idea. What do you guys think. please feel free to expand on it or even post your own new ideas. Lets see what cool, crazy stuff we can come up with.

 

Oooo! The turbo wizards on this site are going to find something wrong with it, but to me it sounds like a d@mn good idea!
I especially like the part about using different exhaust turbine sizes to spread out the boost over a larger rev range.
Even if this isn't practical, keep dreaming until you find something that is. Innovation, and advancement is what hot rodding is all about. Despite what the hardcore carb guys will tell you.

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No guts, no glory.

 

Hmmm. Someone has been thinking!

The only thing about driving with some kind of fluid is that youd have to recirculate it around and when it comes in contact with the turbine wheel it will still heat up. I wonder what kind of fluid viscosities would be encountered with something like that.

Hmm. something to think on.

 

Guido I was hoping this would peak your interest seeing you’re the only guy with a turbo 3rd gen I know of I too was wondering about fluid. At first I was thinking Royal Purple because it is SO slick and it has a higher heat resistance then normal synthetic. Then I also though trans fluid because it is also used in high heat applications and it is used to drive the trans too so it can work under pressure.

My main concerns are maintaining pressure in the system. Obviously there can be nothing compressible in the system, so it has to be bleed 100%. That probably wouldn’t be THAT hard, but doing frequent fluid changes would be very necessary cause of the small volume of fluid used in the system. The changes could pose some problems that I would have to work out. I was thinking of making some sort of reservoir. I don’t know if that would work though cause you have to maintain pressure throughout the system and you don’t want the fluid to lag too bad cause it has to accelerate from a standing reservoir to flying though the lines. It could work but it would take some thinking. um, more thinking

 

oh BTW dealing with the heat buildup wouldnt be hard to deal with, just run a power steering or trans cooler in the line. that does add more mess to the system, but it would be easy to place in an out of the way part of the car.

 

It sounds like a good idea. You might lose some power in the transfer of power (i.e., in the fluid), but i'm not sure though. Definately something to continue to think on. ::thumbs up::

 

The biggest problem with it is: why would you bother? What gains would you see after going through all the trouble of designing and building such a setup?

Well the answer is none. A cooler intake charge maybe...but only marginally. Not enough to offset losses of a less effiecient fluid transfer. There wouldn't really be gaining a packaging advantage either. In fact..there would be much more space required for such a system, as you would be adding an extra pair or impellers, lines and coolers.

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"American made baby. 100% American iron. The muscle among the masses. My hero. Yep, you can take your ergonomically designed, space age, computer controlled, 4 door, cup holding map lighted split double wishbone split fold down retractable cargo covered moon roof piece of transportation and keep it. For I have felt the thunder. And I know the difference!"
JSP Motorsports
ICON Motorsports

 

OK where do the Lithium Crystals go?

LOL At least your thinking....I can smell the wood burning... Hey how about steam!
Use superheated high speed steam to transfer the drive power from the turbine to the secondary turbine/compressor.

 

the housings for the fluid impellers wouldnt be very large. tuck them right next to the side of the turbine housing and they wont take up much rooms. the biggest gain of the system is not having to do a custom header setup.

do you really think the fluid drive would cost that much power? i know it would cost a little over a regular turbo setup, but it would still be free power. I dunno, like i said, its just an idea. you got any ideas to improve the system or even a differnt drive system? i posted the fluid drive cause that was the first thing i came up with but maybe someone can think of a differnt way. I was debating and electrical drive but it really was way overcomplicated and would be a PITA too put into reality.

 

the way i see it is that the fluid would have a hard time getting up to speed with the high rpm's of the turbo, this, first off causing lag and second.. very high pressures.. u'll probably loose over half the power.. hrmm...
why not have the turbine do hydrolics for the compressor?.. even then.. electronic.. well... u could eliminate the use of the turbine side if you went that way.. just have it controled by a switch on the inside and a bigger or dual alt.. but then, u'r getting to superchargers (or why not kinda thing cuz u'r using a second alt.. or a bigger one.. might as well stick a supercharger there).. ok.. so... you're fluid idea is kinda cool... well.. not kinda, it is.. but.. the fluid isn't powerfull enough in my opinion, of a link between the turbine and compressor....

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87 formula
LB9, Automatic
K&N
3" mandrel bent exhaust,
v-force muffler
Hypertech preformance

 

K.I.S.S.

A fluid coupling would be too complicated, the fluid would be heated by the turbine AND the compression, you'd need a large holding tank for cooling even with a cooler on the return (a typical automatic transmission holds around 12 quarts, 2 of that is for the converter, 1 is for the actual functioning, and the rest is for cooling.) You'd also need to be able to vent the return extremely quickly (turbos can spin upward of 100,000 RPM), a cooler would compromise this. Putting the cooler on the feed would create more lag. If you COULD get it to work it would be really easy to make a boost controller (solenoid on a bleed).

Why not try something simpler like a cable drive (think speedo cable on steroids). Hmm... Maybe with a small gearbox to control the boost.

JK

 

well apparently the idea has more merit then i originally though seeing that i just found out that Garret is in the R&D phases of building such a system right now. whos the man??? ya thats me haha j/k anyway, check out what Tony DeQuick (owner of Charged Air Systems) said about it here.. http://ubb.mfba.org/cgi-bin/ultimate...c&f=8&t=000332

 

I know this came up before but what about a belt drivin turbo. It would keep it simple, realistic, and cheap. I would be similar to a cyntrifical super charger and would have the same pitfalls but WTF, boost is boost!

 

a belt driven turbo WOULD be a supercharger, unless your talking about running a belt from the exhuast turbine to the intake turbine, which would REALLY be a huge PITA.

 

How about a belt with a clutch..where it disengages when theres enough boost..like a turbocharger with a pulley for a belt connected to a hollow shaft for the intake of the turbo....somebody shoot me before I get going

Daz

 

Sounds like a bad Mad Max Movie...

 

You could have the turbo run off a pulley like an accessory ie. your AC. Set the pullys up to reach max boost at say 3K then a boost pressure switch could disingage a clutch to slow down the turbo so you dont over boost. Or better yet you could run a wasegate in the intake track and have a boost regulater hooked to it for adjustability from in the cab of the car. Instead of the wastegate dumping exhaust into the exhaust system to control boost it would dumb your intake charge into your engine bay to control boost. You would run all your oil lines as you normally would. You would have the benifit of a cooler charge because it is not being run from the exhaust but you would have it drawing power off the motor to spin it up. You could also plum in an IC if you wished as well. Someone hurry up and set this all up so I can follow your lead. The hardest part would be how to calculate which pullies to use to generate sufficent boost.

 

I just had an idea. Pick up the oil to run the turbos from the oilpan of the engine and then run an oil return line back into the engine. That "could" keep the oil cooler (maybe?) i dont know how hot it would get if it had dedicated oil in the system. But if it was run from the oil pan the oil could last longer in the system. just a though.......

 

What about the electrical idea... Put an electric motor where the exhaust turbine is, you could use gears to get it to spin the speed you wanted. Then you could get a variable powerswitch to control the speed and the amount of boost. It would draw a lot of electricity but might be simpler than a belt driven one.

Andrew

 

I think I remember reading in "RacePages" back in '97 or '98 about a company that took a turbo apart and spun the compressor with a belt drive, kinda like a centrifugal blower, but with the adjustability of a turbo (wide variety of turbines).

As for the idea of using an electric motor, it takes 10-15HP minimum to spin a compressor wheel fast enough to create "boost", the only 10HP elecric motor I've seen is the type on the lathes at work, they run on 430 volt 3 stage. you'd need a HELL of an alternator!

The only advancements I can really see in turbo design are with VANT