Steven89Iroc

Has anyone used any of these huge ~$200 bar & plate intercoolers from any one of a number of random ebay companies such as this?

eBay Motors: FMIC Turbo Intercooler 31x12x4 4"Thick Supra Mustang NR (item 8069757515 end time Jun-02-06 16:25:11 PDT)

Most of these companies seem to be selling the same intercoolers, even the infamous SSAutoCrap/BS Power (which I wouldn't ever buy from). I'd think they were made in China hence the low prices, and I don't care to support that government/military. However, if they aren't, it may be worth it, but I don't see how they're so cheap unless they blow apart beyond 11.2 psi or something.

In short, I may need a new IC to install on my Camaro (current one has major issues) and these might fit the bill, but I maybe I'm thinking wishfully.

PETE

iTrader: (1)

I've yet to try out mine, but the welds look very good and the core(from what i can see inside the neck is straight as an arrow. I got mine very very cheap so if it works well I'm $800 to the good considering what a good fmic runs.....

grover85

iTrader: (1)

I picked one up to and am happy with its quality. I know there are a few people on this board running them with out problems.

vwdave

I am running a ebay intercooler on my Jetta and have yet to have a problem. I am spiking 24 psi and holding 20 on my stock turbo.

Granted, 20psi on a K03s is like, 4psi on a T3 Super 60.

grover85

iTrader: (1)

You have the KO3 sport or regular? Also are you running the bigger inlet pipe? How much of a difference did you notice with a front mount intercooler?

rubbermanZ28

I have an Ebay intercooler with my 90 gsx. With an evo 3 16g ive ran 24 consistantly, and ran in the 11's. I have all of my supporting mods. So it should be great for your car. They will hold up to that amount of boost with EASE! Go buy one, and good luck.

vwdave

K03s = K03 sport. Yes, I am running a Ven-Air brand pipe and all of the couplers are Ven-Air. I have full bolt-ons.

With the FMIC, I gained probably 10-15whp.

Steven89Iroc

Good, now if only I could register with Ebay.

Steven89Iroc

Well that was a huge pain.

I should have one 24x12x4 3" in/out bar & plate intercooler on it's way to me. Hopefully I don't get screwed (me = long time 'all things ebay' skeptic).

browncamaroz28

iTrader: (1)

you should have no problems with that IC, we put one on a custom turboed grand am with a huge t4 running about 18psi and we haven't had problems with it yet, its very nice quality too.

Eric

Steven89Iroc

Nice. How much power is that Grand Am making?

Unfortunately, they said they miscounted inventory and were out of stock on that one, so they refunded my money. They also said they should be in stock again in 3-4 weeks, so we'll see. I have that amount of time+ before I need it.

Brad91Rs

Plenty of people over on ls1tech are using ebay intercoolers and running great times with them. I'm gonna be using one on my trans am when it's complete.

a73camaro

Using a SSAutochrome water intercooler on a jet drive boat. So far I've had great results. Air inlet temps were 160 to 180°F (ambient around 80°F) with 5.5 PSI boost before the intercooler.

With the intercooler I'm using lake water for the cooling medium and I'm seeing air inlet temps at 80°F. So with the cooler air temps I can run more timing, get higher RPMS and more boost.

Kingtal0n

Hi Dave!!!

The only downside to the ebay intercoolers or any intercooler similar is the straight through flow design.

Sure, its a very low resistance core, but as the horsepower (and thus airflow through the core) goes up, the intercooler is less and less effieicnt at doing its job because the air generally just passes from one side to the other, there isnt anything at the core to physically pull massive amount of heat away.

Look at any of the high dollar intercoolers, RSPL Greddy or Spearco, or anything HKS you will see some kind of "hairs" or "fin design" inside the core, slightly hurting flow (more pressure drop) but necessary to cool very large amount of air at once. Thing is, most people dont need a 500Horsepower intercooler, so it doesnt make a difference, thus the nice reviews you get. Just because it flows air from one side to the other, doesnt make it "good". A straight pipe will do that, and most of the time you wont ever see a difference.

KS91Z28

Listen to this guy. He knows what he's talking about! The air has to slow down enough for the intercooler to scrub the heat from the air.

Steven89Iroc

You are correct, and I was worried about this. However, you can see fins in there, but it's hard to see anything in this pic. How efficient that fin design is is a whole different question.

vwdave

Sup Jordan.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

I see a lot of opinion here and only one case of real data posted. Ignoring the the generic efficiency comments I would take a look at turbomustangs.com or do a google search. It sounds like the only real data had water being sprayed on the IC

There is one site that did a pressure drop and efficiency test of the old 1980's Volvo intercooler that has no fins in the IC (just a like a radiator). The efficiency was surprisingly high. The Ebay coolers look to have the same inner structure of the 1980's SAAB intercoolers. Just a few small rails inside them. At turbomustangs.com I read a post were some one did on pressure drop and effieciency. Both were "good". I read that there last Fall when researching IC setups.

For my pick-up truck and camaro setup I went with a Griffin Thermal Products IC. The inner structure is woven. It looks just like the outside of the IC (just like a radiator) in all of the tubes. It should cool good due to the large surface area but it will also restrict airflow more. Therefore, I went with a size of 24"Long x 12"Tall x 4.25" thick at the core. Overall, length with the custom endtanks is around 33" including the out/in tubes. Cost was $150 shipped and another $50 for some 1/8" 5051 plate (I used about $20 worth of the sheet) and 1/8" wall alum. pipe. Total was $200 without TIG welding. Another $30 for TIG welding supplies.

According to Griffin it will flow for about 900 FWHP or better. Using my example, I would say that for the money the Ebay coolers are a good deal. I think the effieciency would be fine using the data from the turbomustang site. The only problem I had with them was that they all were single inlet and I wanted dual for the twin setups. I would have had to cut off one end tank and make a dual inlet for it. So I figured I might as well buy one without endtanks. I didn't want a merge/collector before the IC. I wanted a dual inlet IC.

I have no actual data to post. I did install an IAT bung on the inlet pipes and an IAT bung on the outlet pipes. I am still working on the $58 code to read the new before IC IAT sensor.........and the truck still isn't road ready yet.

JoBy

Ake Eliasson here in sweden has a ProCharged 4th gen Z28.

In 2004 he used the Procharger twin "highflow" IC and IAT was 104 to 173 (11.0 sec) on a 90 day. (383 LT1 ported stock heads, 13psi from P1sc)

In 2005 he replaced the twin intercoolers with a 24"x12"x4" ebay intercooler. IAT went from 90 to 130 (10 sek) on a 90 day. (383 LT1 ported TFS heads, 17 psi from an F1)

With higher boost and more power he still got a lot lower IAT using the ebay intercooler.

This is a picture of his car.

Steven89Iroc

Nice... real data is just what the topic needs.

Judging from the endtank shape, the number of tubes, and the size, that looks to be exactly the same one I'm (still) looking at.

I understand what you mean about the IAT's lowering even with more boost. However, I don't know if I understand your numbers. You said the Procharger IAT was 104 to 173 (11.0 sec). Do you mean that it ran 11.0 in the 1/4 and the IAT was 104 at the start and 173 at the finish? I'm guessing it's the same with the other IC, 10 sec 1/4, 90 IAT to start and 130 IAT at the end, right?

Honestly though, that data is hard to compare, as several things were changed along with the IC. I don't know what the efficiency specs are for both blowers at those respective boost and airflow levels, but that could have something to do with it. Also, different intercooler mounting locations would affect it greatly, where was the Procharger IC located? Another thing, if the IC's started at different temps before the run (14* different), that will skew the results from the beginning, and the 11 second run had more time to heat it up than the 10 second run (if that's what your numbers mean).

It very well might work better, it's just hard to say without a definite apples to apples comparison.

Once my setup is dialed in decently, I'd like to put a straight pipe in place of the IC at different boost levels then go to town logging direct changes. That'll be a while off though.

JoBy

Yes, a 11.0 sec in the 1/4. IAT started at 104 and was 173 at the finish.

It is not my z28, but I got this data from the owner. I am using an identical IC on my turbo Corvette.

I think that data is comparable.

Ambient temperature is the same.

If the efficiency of the superchargers are the same, then they would heat the air the same amount at the same boost. 17 psi will give you hotter air than 12 psi boost.

Even if the F1 has higher efficiency than the P1sc the 17 psi boost will still be hotter than 12 psi.

The car made more power, that means it uses more air.

The ProCharger intercoolers had less air to cool, and air was colder to start with. Still the ebay intercooler managed to keep the IAT much cooler at the end of the 1/4.

The mounting location is important and the ebay IC was probably in a much better location. Still ... Comparing the ProCharger setup with the ebay front mount ... it is no doubt which setup is better.

This year he has a new best of 9.9 sec and 140 mph.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

JoBy,
Very good info. Enough data to do some effieciency calcs on that IC. Judging from that info I would say those ICs are well worth the money if the material quality is good. You would happen to remember about how thick the endtanks and in/out walls were?

TurboedTPI

That is almost the exact intercooler that i am running. Same exact demensions but mine is a greddy(actually made by Trust) intercooler that is made for a toyota supra. But the inlets and outlets look to be in the same exact locations. Mine works very well. I looked on the greddy website and when it was new, the intercooler kit cost near $1500. I got it for $250 off ebay in good condition..

AJT86

ive seen these run on turbo buicks with 25psi and higher- they seem to hold well. there have been a couple end tank blow outs though. but out of the majority of the guys using them they work nicely for the money.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

Do you know if the blow-outs were due to the 25PSI or a pressure spike after the 25PSI with a throttle let-off and no BOV?

AJT86

blowouts were due to 25psi- tanks blew at WOT in 2nd gear- no let off, that was the one case i saw. i heard a couple more blew too.

Steven89Iroc

I just recieved my 24x12x4 Ebay intercooler, and I got it from another company for $60 cheaper than the first company that ran out of them. Lucky me! Total with shipping was $190. I'll try to give a bit of a physical review, applied results will have to wait.

The welds at least -look- like they penetrate well, and it's blingin' polished as you can see on the Camaro shown above. It has a couple minor dings and blemishes, but nothing that will affect anything beyond appearance. Though the o.d. of the endtank connections is 3", the i.d. is about 2 5/8. The endtanks are definitely thick enough to last. The core measures insignificantly less than 24x12x4, but that's a given as it's actually 600x300x100mm, they just round it up to 24x12x4.

My digi cam can't take pics up close, but the fin design is definitely better than a lot of cheap ones I've seen.
The ambient side is as you can see from pics, but the fins aren't smooth all the way through, they're kind of 'serrated' for lack of better terms. That's good for efficiency, though it slows down air some. It's a good trade-off in this case. I measured 11 fins per inch.
The charge side has similar fins (not quite as 'V' shaped, more 'U' shaped), but they have little holes drilled in them throughout. That should help to stir up the air to transfer more heat, I'd think. Results on other cars do seem to speak for themselves. I measured 10 fins per inch on these.

Overall it looks like the best new intercooler buy I've ever seen. The only drawback is that it's about 30 lbs. (whoa!), but that's to be expected for the massive size of the thing. It might be a bit less if they used a different type of aluminum, but I honestly don't know. Other than that, I'd bet there's a good chance it's made in China, though I have no hard evidence of that. I really hope it's made somewhere else for reasons I stated in the beginning, but it's done now, and it seemed too good to pass up.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

It sounds like a good unit. The external fins are louvered. The pipe wall seems thick enough (about .190") so that it can be clamped well. I thick I used .125" wall on my IC and it is nearly impossible to crush it.

What are your plans for the coolant fans to draw through that thing at idle?

Steven89Iroc

Yes, louvered. I knew there was a simple word I was missing somehow.

I measured things a bit more accurately today, though I don't have calipers so it should still be considered an estimate (though a very close one). The i.d. of the endpipes is 2.65625 (2 21/32), and the o.d. at the thinnest point is 2.9375 (2 15/16), so the wall thickness should be right around .145", which is PLENTY as you said. What bugs me is that the SA of that is 5.54 in^2, and the SA of the .07" wall 3" aluminum IC pipes I have for it (still plenty strong- it'll dent if you really try, but it will easily hold any clamps) is 6.42 in^2. That's about a 14% surface area loss. I was thinking of trying to bore them out with a drill and a 3-stone cylinder hone (heh), but it may not even be worth it.

I measured and calculated the total internal cross sectional area of the core (minus fins and all), and got 12.6 in^2. Again that's an estimate, but probably pretty close. That's double what a typical 3" o.d. pipe has, and it's about the same as a 4" i.d. pipe. I'd say it's a pretty good bet that this IC won't be any kind of huge restriction with relation to area itself. Obviously friction comes into play, but it looks good from this standpoint.

One more thing I noticed was that one of the 4 mounting bungs (2 top, 2 bottom) hasn't been tapped like the rest, it's just a smooth hole. It's not a huge deal to tap aluminum so I'm not worried about it, honestly I expected a few quality related mistakes such as this for the price. That would be a different story if it was a Spearco or the like, as they cost real $$$. No biggie, just thought I'd mention it.

I plan on mounting it right in front of the impact absorber sort-of like this (I hope I don't rear-end anyone, lol). I want to duct it to keep the flow from bypassing the IC.



It won't block radiator flow as that will still come up from underneath, but unfortunately that means the radiator fans won't do a thing for it when the car is stopped. I probably won't do anything about it until later on down the road, but here's some ideas...
I could mount a JY fan behind the bumper and run it all the time, but that would add more weight to an already front heavy setup and also take away more power, and airflow at speed.
An easier option would be to use the windshield washer fluid with a basic 'hood mount' style sprayer mounted in front of the IC (on the front fascia). This is messier though, and wouldn't help much until the car started moving again (unless I put ice in the tank, but that would only work for a limited time) and it couldn't be used on any form of racetrack.
Other than those, there's the CO2 or N2O sprayer routes which both work very well, but very $$$.

I can't ever seem to get my points across without using 5,000 words.

Steven89Iroc

Here are a couple pics, oil bottle for comparison.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

I wouldn't worry about the endtank pipe SA. Think about he volume in those short pieces. You need the SA more in the long charge pipes.

I think spraying it with anything would be a waste and a possible mess too. If you are really worried about the IATs at no-flow conditions, I would put a coolant fan blowing on it (at an angle). Since 25 AMPs equates to 1 HP, I would not worry about the engine HP loss.....even with the alt. eff. loss. Besides, 25AMPs is a huge coolant fan. You will probably by in the 10 AMP area.

Do you have any pics looking into the end tank pipes at the tube / bar & plate structure?

Steven89Iroc

While the water wouldn't be very effective, spraying CO2 from a properly set up shaped tube mounted to the IC helps a lot, as liquid CO2 comes out at -109*F (similar for N2O) and it vaporizes quite quickly, eliminating any mess. Like I said though, $$$.

Okay, that's not much power coming from the fan. I suppose they're not too heavy, but I hate adding any weight up there that I don't have to (I really wish I could afford some aluminum heads, heh).

Just about the best pic I can get of the inner core is the one I just posted. I have only a very cheap 2.0 mp camera. I'll try to get a better one though.

Edit: Out of 20 tries, this is the best I could get.

Shows the shape of the fins decently


Shows the junction of bars/endtank decently

MrDude_1

actually, pouring chilled water over an intercooler is HIGHLY effective.... the problem with water, and other IC sprayer methods, is that they drip water onto the track..
yes, even CO2 and nitrous.... because thoes two blow so cold, they let dew condense on them, and it drips on the track. for that reason, most tracks have outlawed spraybars....

btw, i have that same intercooler... i have yet to use it, but lots of guys on LS1tech have.. works great for them.

Steven89Iroc

Well I was referring to the non-chilled water which it would be 95% of the time.

I didn't realize the others make that much condensation, oh well. I can always stick to my *banned word * roots and empty about a 1/2 can of upside-down Dust-Off onto the IC before a run like I have with my Talon.

I'm not all that worried about cooling the IC at idle, but from experience I know that once the IC gets heat soaked on the street it takes a while to cool it down again. I probably shouldn't worry about it, I really don't need anywhere near 500hp on a hot day in the city anyway.

Even though I haven't used it I'm pretty sure now that I got a killer buy.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

The thing is that the IC is in front of the coolant fan so that when the regular coolant fan is on at idle it is drawing radiator hot air away from the the IC. When moving, free-flow air keeps the radiator heat way from the IC.

Thanks for the pics. The internal structure is much better than I had thought. If you really want additional cooling, you could have plates weld on the end tanks to hold liquid. At that rate, I would just go with a water mix injection because the cost would be the same, maintenence would be less, and HP would be more. Just an opinion though. I bet in the end you will bolt it on and run it without the extra junk and it will give more cooling than you ever thought.

Steven89Iroc

I don't know if you've seen the frontal area of a third gen (it's somewhat similar to your second gen), but there is a huge space between the radiator (well, A/C condenser also in my case) and the front bumper, which the IC will be in front of, and plenty of space for the fans to pull ambient air from before the IC, so I seriously doubt they will do anything for it. My Talon has about 2" between it's IC and the rad/ac cond. and it barely has any pull through the IC.
That's only an issue below ~10mph though.

You're welcome.

I wouldn't want to deal with adding liquid filled plates or anything like that, no way. I do want to add W/I eventually, but I still like the idea of cooler IAT's to begin with.
You're probably right about it not needing anything else. Only testing will verify, though, and that is the plan to just bolt it on as is and see what happens.
I'm used to my Talon's under-sized modified delivery truck IC not working worth a darn above 50* ambient temps and especially in stop and go traffic and it makes me think about this all the more. However, the Camaro's planned IC setup definitely has major advantages over the Talon's.