First a brief review for those who don't know the history of my car. Until this year, I had a Paxton SN2000 with a Carroll water injection system. Then I replaced the SN2000 with an ATI D1SC and three-core intercooler. I kept the H2O injection when I sold the Paxton and finally installed it last weekend.

I also reinstalled my manifold air temp (MAT) sensor back in its original location so I could get some valid air temps. I've always professed that water injection is more efficient than any air-to-air intercooler. Now, for the results:

Without H2O Injection:
May 4, 2001
Ambient Temperature - 64 deg
Relative Humidity - 29 percent
This run was at the track with an E/T of 12.259 @ 113.17 mph.
Total timing set at 35 degrees.
Knock registered as high as 11 degrees with a minimum of 2 degrees (much higher than I've ever seen it).
MANIFOLD AIR TEMP throughout the run was 131 degrees. Keep in mind ambient temperature was 64 degrees. (Can you imagine how hot it would have been had it not been for the intercooler?)

With H2O Injection engaged at 3-psig boost:
June 10, 2001
Ambient Temperature - 101 degrees
Relative Humidity - 8 percent
This data was not at the track, but on a secluded section of roadway. I recorded data up to 75 mph.
Total timing set at 38 degrees.
Knock registered as high as 7 degrees with a minimum of zero.
MANIFOLD AIR TEMP started at 125.6 degrees. For each second thereafter during my burst, here are the values:

123.8
116.6
102.2
95.0
91.4
89.6
87.8
87.8
86.0
89.6

Keep in mind the ambient temperature was 101 degrees. It looks like I was right about which truly is more efficient. I was able to run 38 total degrees timing, knock values were significantly less AND all this with an ambient temperature that was 37 degrees HOTTER. By the very nature of physics, no air-to-air intercooler can lower intake air temperatures to ambient. However, the H2O injection was able to lower air temps to BELOW ambient. Amazing! So to those guys who think H2O is a "band-aid", emperical data can oftentimes sway even the most hard-to-convince person. All I can say is I'm NEVER racing again without my "band-aid". I rest my case.


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Willie

Supercharged 1987 305 IROC-Z, Daily-Driver, Emissions-Legal.
Former Paxton (6-psig): 12.57 @ 111 mph.
Former Paxton (6-psig) & former 50-hp nitrous: 12.04 @ 114 mph.
ATI D1SC (5-psig):
12.26 @ 113.55 mph
ATI D1SC (10-psig): Projecting high 11's.
Future ATI D1SC (15-psig): Gotta catch them pesky 26-psig boosted TTA's!!

http://willie.camaro-firebird.org/

1987 "20th Anniversary Commemorative Edition" Z28 Convertible -- Super Chevy Show Class Winner, 1998.

[This message has been edited by Willie (edited June 10, 2001).]

 

Thanks for the info WIllie. I was planning on running a water injection setup to bandaid not having an intercooler...now I don't feel so bad.

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"American made baby. 100% American iron. The muscle among the masses. My hero. Yep, you can take your ergonomically designed, space age, computer controlled, 4 door, cup holding map lighted split double wishbone split fold down retractable cargo covered moon roof piece of transportation and keep it. For I have felt the thunder. And I know the difference!"
JSP Motorsports
ICON Motorsports

 

try alcohol insted of water or do a mix of bouth it works even better plus it
raises octain.

check out my simple page at:
http://darcom.home.texas.net/

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388 SuperRam, DFI, Vortech R trim ,N.O.S.,alki injection,
Dart sportmansII heads,50 pound injectors, Headman full headers
duel 3' exhaust,and Flowmasters, Ford nine inch with 370's
Ronal rims with Nitto drad raidals.

[This message has been edited by DARCOM (edited June 10, 2001).]

 

I refer to it as water but I do indeed use a 40/60 to 50/50 mix of alcohol to distilled water.

Willie

 

i was also planning to skip the I/C and just use water injection, pure water for normal driving and 50/50 mix for racing. that's on my imaginary TT thirgen though, hopefully it won't be imaginary too much longer.

 

Willie,

I did not catch if you took the IC off or not when you did your second test with the water injection or if that is IC + H2O injection?

thanks
BW

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Bobalos
aka Bob W.
www.r71camaro.homestead.com
r71chevy@earthlink.net
<><

 

I believe Willie was using both the IC & H2O inj.

I wonder how much more effective nitrous is at cooling the intake air (approx 77 K @ atmospheric pressure). I'll have to reinstall an IAT sensor in the plenum & see what the temp does during a NOS run sometime..........

Tim

 

Willie,

The last time I saw you try to use water injection at the track on your car it ran horrible. It stuttered and bogged big time. What has changed? Where does the water get injected, before or after the IC?

Tim, I do believe that NOS is a much better cooling agent, but the water setup is cheaper and a more simple setup.......... plus Willie sold his NOS system!!

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Phil87IROC
Blue '87 IROC, 383 Crate Motor, KB pistons, AFR 190 heads, ZZ-9 cam, Edelbrock RPM intake, Hooker SC/LT headers, Edelbrock 750 cfm Carb (#1411), stock T-5, GM 3.42 rear w/Auburn posi.
Ohio Valley Dragstrip Trophy Bracket WINNER - 8.39 ET on a 1.82 sec. - 60'. Best MPH = 84.44. Still Tuning Carb!
Red '89 IROC L98, TES, 700R4, T-Tops, K&Ns w/open air boxes, 160 T-stat, Hyper Chip, gutted MAF & CAT, Jacobs Ign., 53kv coil, MSD wires.

[This message has been edited by Phil87IROC (edited June 11, 2001).]

 

To clarify, my water injection run was also with the intercooler.

For those years with the Paxton, I never had the MAT sensor in the stock location, it was mounted before the supercharger. Therefore, I cannot compare then and now.

Tim, it would truly be interesting to see how much N2O lowers intake air temps. Maybe hook up a second MAT sensor back in the stock location and make the two switchable?

Phil, the last time water injection caused my engine to stutter and run awful because of it's turn-on point. I had it injecting at the instant of boost. It is now set to inject starting at 3-psig boost. It ran great!!!

Willie

 

Wouldnt adding the NOS with the boost lean the car out too (from the added oxygen in the nitrous)?

Would have to boost your superfueler up a little bit to compensate? Im betting so but at least you would have cooler air intake temps.

 

Willie You got your huffer back! Got more boost now? Are you thinking about making a bypass pipe, that would just replace the intercooler and trying these runs again? This would be the best way to test the water injection. It will vaporize quicker at the higher air temp also, but you might have to go to a bigger water injector tip size without the intercooler. I know you were not all that happy with the radiator's cooling airflow after mounting the intercooler, and thought this would help in the HOT months sonn to be here and give a real water injection VS. Intercooler test. Also how quiet is your D1SC, really?

 

i also use NOS to cool down the intake charge
it works incredibly well only problem with it
is it adds to much hp sometimes were i dont want it
cousing bad tire spin in any gear on street tires.

http://darcom.home.texas.net/

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388 SuperRam, DFI, Vortech R trim ,N.O.S.,alki injection,
Dart sportmansII heads,50 pound injectors, Headman full headers
duel 3' exhaust,and Flowmasters, Ford nine inch with 370's
Ronal rims with Nitto drad raidals.

 

i've been learning about N20 and FI and have found out some interesting things.

-the safest way when putting N2O on a FI car is to have it have its own fuel system. That is one thing i noticed...then your not tasking the whole fuel system considering the extra fuel needed for boost

-also, it lowers temps extremely because of how low the degree is. That is why when you juice a blown car that "shot" is worth about the same number if not more at the rear wheels as the shot stated. example: 75 horse shot might show 50rwhp more......75 horse shot should show like 75 or even 90 horse at the rear wheels.

The reason why N20 works so well with FI is because an engine is really just a huge air pump. You want as much fuel/air in and get it out as fast as you can, that is how you make horsepower. So think about FI and juice:
-extra fuel needed from boost
-extra air received from boost

-extra fuel needed with n2o
-lowers the temps for horsepower gain

i hope i explained this well

 

hmmmmmmmmm, shoot. So this is really not a comparison of H2O vs an IC, but one of an IC with & w/o H2O. Sounds to me like the IC w/the H2O injection is the way to go, considering how much worse the conditions were & how much better the car performed Glad to hear it is running hard for you.

I would agree with Blown85, in that a H2O vs IC test would be a very intersting test, to see how much each contributes by itself, but w/o a simple bypass tube for the IC that would be a big pain. I dont recall how it sits in your car but if you could take it right out of the blower & into the TB, that would be a great test, all else being equal.

BW



------------------
Bobalos
aka Bob W.
www.r71camaro.homestead.com
r71chevy@earthlink.net
<><

 

Cool! (uhh... sorry, just realized the horrible pun here...) I didn't think the results would be that good. I need to relocate the MAT in the intake plumbing before the TB (to get rid of heat soak) to get some real temp readings. Very nice results.

The one drawback I see is that it is another system that when it breaks, can take out your motor if you're running big boost and the knock sensor doesn't save it.

A.

 

exactly...that is why you'll see me next year with a two step and no n2o

andris knows why

secret big-boost club.
oh yeah, andris i have updates for you man i need to email you

 

Good comparison Willie.But you have to do the tests with and without the intercooler.Both seem to be the way to go,not one or the other.I heard somewhere that water injection give a little power loss?My thinking is that as the water enters the combustion chamber it takes the place of what could actually be more air molecules in the bore.My rant,but I am too contemplating using water injection on my kit.I didnt get where you were spraying the engine,but I might actually spray it before the intercooler,I wonder if it would make more of a temp loss if done this way.But lik I said going the route with 2 instead of one is smart.I would always run the intercooler first and use the water injestion as a supplement.Byt what you found it dam well works awesome.N2O would be the ultimate but the added expense of the N2O will be a burden compared to how cheap water and alcohol is.

Willie,you ever think of trying Methonal?Supposed to add more oxygen to the mix,something to look into.Also now I have also read that alcohol and water injection really cleans out the carbon inside the motor,not a bad plus in my book.
Keep us posted when you hit the track again sporting more boost.

Hey Willie,you didnt post what you ran on June 10th?Whoops reread it to quick

[This message has been edited by PROCHARGED89Z (edited June 12, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by PROCHARGED89Z (edited June 12, 2001).]

 

Agreed. But it does show you the effectiveness of water injection. Can you imagine if I'd done this test without the IC? How much higher would the air temp have been before the water kicked in?

Yes, it would be a big pain. I don't think it would be worth the time, effort (and $$$) to install an IC bypass pipe just for a couple of runs. As for plumbing the blower directly into the TB, that would require completely new pipes and a new location for the MAF -- too much time and trouble.

Willie

 

Again, I feel it would be too much trouble to do this just for a couple of runs. On my one run, it reduced air temps from 126 degrees down to 86 degrees. Can you imagine what it would do if the incoming air temp (maybe without the IC) were elevated?

That's why the term "water injection" isn't really accurate. I use mix of methanol and water, which acts like an additional supply of fuel. It actually raises octane.


Just in front of the throttle body.

On a sidenote, I used to run nitrous with my Paxton. With 50-hp jets, I gained 0.8 seconds. I didn't have the guts to try the 90-hp jets.

Absolutely true. When I disassembled my engine two years ago, I could not believe my eyes when I pulled the heads. The pistons looked steam cleaned. Not one trace of carbon in the combustion chambers.

I haven't run since May 4th. I'll be going again at the end of June.

Willie

 

Oh, I did not know that you were MAF. Cool, thanks for the information.

BW

------------------
Bobalos
aka Bob W.
www.r71camaro.homestead.com
r71chevy@earthlink.net
<><

 

i spray my alchol just before the blower intake
it also helps lower the tempt of the blower
it self
thangs i have noticed about alchol and water
alchol strait cools the intake charge and add 10 points to the octain
bad thangs about it are it is corrosive over a peiord of time
mostly to the fuel lines that carry it so use nos teflon hose
its worked the best for me.
water strait helps to curb detonation and lowers emmisions
bad points well not too many just use clean water
not out of the tap ,here were i live we have bad calcem in the water


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388 SuperRam, DFI, Vortech R trim ,N.O.S.,alki injection,
Dart sportmansII heads,50 pound injectors, Headman full headers
duel 3' exhaust,and Flowmasters, Ford nine inch with 370's
Ronal rims with Nitto drad raidals.