WARDL98GTA

I HAVE A 1989 GTA L98 TPI ALL STOCK EXCEPT FOR A PORTED PLENIUM ... I HAVE RESEARCHED ATI AND VORTECH AND ATI SEEMS LIKE A GOOD DEAL "BUT" WHEN I CHECK ON THE INTERNET I HEARD NOTHING BUT HORRIOR STORIES ABOUT ATI (P600B)9PSI AND ALL GOOD STORIES ABOUT VORTECH. I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW IF ANYONE HAS INSTALLED BOTH SYSTEMS AND HOW THEY WORKED OUT. EVEN SPEED SHOPS HAVE SAID THAT WHEN THEY HAVE INSTALLED ATI SUPERCHARGERS, THE CUSTOMERS WERE VERY UNHAPPY. HOW TRUE IS THIS?

Willie

iTrader: (1)

All I can tell you is that I am very satisified with my D1SC from ATI.

Although my 305 is not stock, I'd say a 12.26 @ 113.55 mph with only 5 psig boost is nothing to sneeze at. And this result was very unexpected. I went to the track to shake down my car and see how it behaved through the 1/4-mile. I was more than surprised to see I almost cut a sub-12 second 1/4 without really trying. Wait until June 29th.

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Willie

Supercharged 1987 305 IROC-Z, Daily-Driver, Emissions-Legal.
Former Paxton (6-psig): 12.57 @ 111 mph.
Former Paxton (6-psig) & former 50-hp nitrous: 12.04 @ 114 mph.
Current ATI D1SC (Initially 10-psig): Projecting high 11's.
Future ATI D1SC (15-psig): Gotta catch them pesky 26-psig boosted TTA's!!

http://willie.camaro-firebird.org/

1987 "20th Anniversary Commemorative Edition" Z28 Convertible -- Super Chevy Show Class Winner, 1998.

[This message has been edited by Willie (edited June 03, 2001).]

WARDL98GTA

TO BE MORE CLEAR WHEN I TALK TO THE SPEED SHOP(2 OF THEM)THAT DEAL WITH ATI AND VORTECH THEY SAID WHEN THEY INSTALLED THEM ON 3RD GEN CARS (THE ATI P600B) THAT THE INTERCOOLER WAS HELL TO PUT IN (DIDNT FIT RIGHT) AND YOU DIDNT GET 9PSI AND THAT CONFIRMED THE STORIES I WAS HEARING ON THE INTERNET. TO ME I JUST WANT THE BEST SYSTEM FOR MY MONEY IF IT WAS A COUPLE OF HUNDRED DOLLARS I CAN LIVE AND LEARN ,BUT WHEN ITS 3 GRAND + YOU BECOME A LITTLE MORE CAUTIOUS, AND THE SPEED SHOP I WAS TALKING TO WAS ANS PERFORMANCE WHICH DEALS ALOT WITH GRAND NATIONALS "BIG TIME" SO I FIGURED THAT THEY SHOULD KNOW WHAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT. ANY SUGGESTIONS WOULD BE VERY HELPFUL BEFORE I MAKE THE THE BIG MONEY PLUNGE

[This message has been edited by WARDL98GTA (edited June 03, 2001).]

sslee

Well let me tell you about ATI...
The first blower I had was excellent (p600b), except it did not put out the boost they said it would, so I had to buy another pulley. The next blower I bought was a D-2 and I was promised 13-15lbs. It only made 8-9, so they said I had to buy another pulley.
Now it makes 15lbs and has crashed (blower blew up) twice. The first time they warrantied it but they kept it 1.5 months. The second time it crashed they say it is my problem and it will cost 1800 dollars to fix it.
There service after the sale sucks when you have warranty trouble.

All I have done is remove the 600B (which was on the car for 3 years), and put the D-2 in its place with no other changes. They claim I am overspeeding it. If the 600B will live at the same rpm the D-2 is spinning then something is wrong here.

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82z28 (currently building)
70.5 camaro
383 with D-2 procharger
best time 9.38@148

sslee

I forgot ,,
the D-2 is only 5 months old.
So far they have had it in their shop for almost 3 months.

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82z28 (currently building)
70.5 camaro
383 with D-2 procharger
best time 9.38@148

89ProchargedROC

ok, i can comment on both a install on a IROC-Z and a GTA because the guy who bought my blower had a GTA.

the install on the Camaro for the intercooler was harder than the GTA because you had to use factory holes to mount the intercooler brackets where as the GTA you just drilled the holes where you wanted to put it. So that was easier

Putting the routing for the intercooler piping was easier on the camaro because of less plastic ground effect pieces and you didn't have to relocate a bunch of stuff like on the GTA (relocate cruise control and charcoal canister) With the GTA i did have to use a hacksaw and cut just a little rectangle out of the very underneath of the ground effects that cover the braces for the side effects to get the pipes to fit. With the camaro this wasn't necessary.

This is my view on the ATI issue:

-one you wont see the proper boost # with the tiny restrictive 2 core intercooler. People have to understand that when the density of compressed up goes up (from the cooling effect of the intercooler) the pressure (psi or boost) will go down but you are still filling the cylinders with more air at a lower temperature.

With my kit (P600B HO 12psi and 3 core) i saw 10lbs of boost @ 5000rpm and the 12psi was rated for 5500rpm, but i never reved it that high because that would be too far out of the range of the TPI peak horsepower. My other friend who had the same 12psi kit but 2 core intercooler, he only say 8psi at the gauge because of restricition.

Also you have to take into account if the boost gauge is installed correctly. if it is pinched a little bit, it wont read correctly. Or if the boost line is excessivly long from the engine to the gauge it wont read right.

Finally comparing vortech and ATI i like to compare this way:

my stock 89 IROC-Z with only a cut-out and K&N's went 14.54 @ 93 w/ 2.77 gears.

Then i put headers, ported MAF, and 12psi procharger on.

With a broken posi at halftrack, the same 2.77 gears, and this was the very first run with the blower, i ran 13.01 @ 110! that is an improvement of over 1.5 seconds and 17mph.

with the broken posi the rest of the day (was now running open) i managed a 13.54 @ 106 through one wheel and 2.77 gears so i was excited to get the posi fixed.

I never ran a 12 second pass because of an ill fated stock intank pump (slowly started dying from that first track day ) but the mph shows the 12 second pass was there and leaning out the FMU would've given me a little more mph. If the pump was working properly i would have run a mid 12 second pass at about 112-113mph.

also, i know many many cars that have been bone stock (absolutely no mods) and put on the 9psi with 2 core setup and have dropped 2 seconds off their time and put them from the 14s to the 12s.

I honestly have never heard of a vortech doing that. No one has ever been able to prove it to me either. i have "heard" of "one" car going from 14s to 12s with a vortech but they couldn't back it up and wouldn't return my emails so i felt that they were lying.

the thing with why ATI's work so much better with third gens is because of the intercooler. Put an aftercooler on a vortech TPI kit and same psi and the results would be the same. The TPI just has too much runner length and with no intercooler from the vortech it gets too heated and easy to detonate. Thats why vortechs with LT1's work so well because their runner length is about 3" opposed to about 22" of ours.

Go with an ATI and i promise you wont be dissappointed

Guido

I have the Vortech. I went with the Vortech mostly because of what you said you had heard. The horror stories about the P600B prochargers. I havent had a lick of trouble with my Vortech yet although I have no legitmatie track times with it yet. I ran a 12.17 @ 113 mph last year but that was letting out of it by the end. I had a lot more mods to my engine to though. AFR190's and a SLP camshaft. And a TPIS mini ram.

I like the quality of the vortech kit except for one thing. How they bolt the power steering pump onto the bracket. Thats the good thing I see about the procharger kits. They bolt on without changing brackets.

The D1 sounds like it has been pretty flawless in all the people Ive seen talking about it. And its bigger than an S-Trim.

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-86 IROC
Jacked up like a mother!
this years goal: 10.50 @ 130+ mph
-=ICON Motorsports=-

mtx28

Ward, another thing, which you probably know but i didnt see mentioned yet.. is that the psi ratings you see are for stock engines, and they are general estimates. If you modify the engine at all in the way of letting it flow more air, then the psi will drop. Dont go strictly on the said psi rating, it is pretty vague. Look at other people's set up, which pulley they run, their mods, and what they have to say in order to better guestimate what pulley you will need. and, my 2c, i think ATI owns both paxtons and vortech's *** 's in the SCing market, mainly bc of the intercooler. I'm not saying that the other two are not good, but i've heard way more praise about ATI than the others.

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• 83 Z28-- not a pretty site to look at, 200k miles and im sure it was treated like a rental car every day of its sad life(before i got it).. sold, thank the lord
• 74 Z28-- 383/400, green on black. pretty clean. FOR SALE!!!

BLOWN85/TA

iTrader: (2)

Guido is rigth about the ATI and their bracket, looks like the best design out now since it does not change the stock serpentine setup. I hear the ATI brackets design has been fixed now, and pulley alignment is good. I have nothing real good to say about the P600, but I dont think they intend to offer it new much longer either. ATI has addressed their problems by updating supercharger's on a regular basis. The replacement for the P600 is the new sealed unit P1SC. The P1SC has a different internal gear step up(4.10:1) than the old 600 (3.05:1). So the internals of the unit are quite different than the old unit. Also they list impellor speeds as 2000 rpm more than the old unit at 62,000 RPM. And I think that quieter is better(to each his own) and the new unit is supposed to be much quieter(have not heard one yet).

The D1 has always seemed more reliable than the P600 at higher boost levels, and now they make a D1SC sharing some of the same components with the P1SC. I think the D1SC would be the way to go, since you get the 3 core intercooler for no more money and I hear that the D1SC comes at $100 extra cost upgrade over the regular D1. Then no more oil lines or holes in the pan to mess with. If you got the P600 kit and added 3 core intercooler upgrade it's $300 for the blower upgrade and $300 more for the intercooler upgrade. Then their is the drive belt, you get the wider drive belt automatically with the D1. So if you added all the stuff to make the P600 or the P1SC up the D1 or D1SC sure looks good with the big intercooler and wider blower belt.

Bite the bullet and get the D1SC and be equiped for more boost down the road with just a pulley change.

I do like the Vortech kit, but the ATI comes with a intercooler, hard to compare.
Vortech better start including aftercoolers in all their kits SOON!

mtx28

the D1SC comes w/a 3 core intercooler? gawd i love ATI. two questions.. first of all, whats the difference btw an intercooler and aftercooler? and what is the internal setup ratio ? is it the controlling factor of how fast the SCer spools up?

WARDL98GTA

but it seems to me with all the problems ati had with the p6oob system that they would have done some kind of testing with a thrid gen camaro and trans am . too me it seemed that they threw a system together and said here buy it it has all these goodies that the others dont .. but now i here you have to go with the d-1 or the d-1sc to get a good working system.. i feel sorry for the people who spent good hard money on the p660b system cuz now they have to spend more money on upgrades just to have a working system.. to me they should have tested very throughtly on the thrid gen cars before selling there product .thats a company whos motto is make product fast ,sell it,deal with problems later.. dont get me wrong i would really like to love this system ( looks like a good set up better than vortech with the under the car alternator and power steering pump) but if only the ati system worked

[This message has been edited by WARDL98GTA (edited June 04, 2001).]

mtx28

well, i cant speak from personal experience, and since i havent been on the car scene but a few years, maby im lacking some past knowledge.. but i wouldnt take that idea about ATI. i dont think its a problem, per se, about the p600b, i just think that its for people who dont want as much boost as the D1 is capable of. Yea, it does cost to upgrade, but why shouldnt it? I dont think ATI falsely advertised the p600b as the hot item to get, and then told its customers that they had to upgrade if they wanted some serious boost, but i could be wrong. I'm still, until some other companies put some serious work into their products, a hardcore ATI fan

maniacc

Well as one of the first owners of the new D1sc kit, i was very disappointed with the kit and was ready to send it back to ATI and get a Vortech, but ATI worked with myself, Darren, and Willie to get all the problems solved, and now the unit fits better than O.J. Simpsons bloody glove!!!

And the power that it produces is incredible, let me tell ya, it's definately the best seat of the pants go fast mod i ever installed.

BTW, ATI only offers the 12-rib belt system with 12# boost(3.70" pulley) or higher on the D1sc systems, the smaller blower pulley allows for alittle more clearance.

Soon i will be heading to the track for some times, so just hold tight.

later
larry

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MÅN¡ÅÇ ©
88 IROC 5.7L,edelbrock TES,random tech cat,borla exhaust,chip,sfc,accel wires,airfoil,k&n's,ETC..
and NOW supercharged!!!
http://maniac.megamania.com

WARDL98GTA

how well will the d-1sc work with a stock engine putting out 12 psi... i have about 63,000 miles on my car(l98 tpi) will i blow my engine???

89 Pollo

I am new to the 3rd gen message board, but wanted to respond to this question. I have had a Vortech for about 1.5 yrs with no problems what so ever. I just fitted my 89 Formula with the ATI 2 core intercooler. I have it plumbed from the throttle body to the 90 that comes out by the horns. I am still uncertain how I am going to plumb it into the discharge side of the blower. The intercooler kit, in my opinion is very nice, but I think it was originally designed to fit on a Camaro not Firebird. I modified it a little to keep the 3 inch tubes under the splash panels in the front of the Formula.

In my opinion, I have the best of both worlds, the super quiet Vortech blower and ATI intercooler.

Mark

BLOWN85/TA

iTrader: (2)

ATI is on top of their game, and they GOT GAME, i dont want you to get the wrong impression here. The P600 is a FINE supercharger without an intercooler. With an intercooler it's still a good lower PSI blower. It's when the P600 is trying to push high boost threw the intercooler is where it starts to max out.

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

The LT-1 crowd is using the Vortech with the ATI intercooler. Something to think about.

By the way, my 94 Vette ran 122 mph trap speeds on a stock cam, stock computer, and a Vortech V1 S-trim.

89ProchargedROC

i dont know if everyone read my whole post (it was long) but the reason why Third gens seem to make so much more power with ATI blowers is because we need the intercooler from the 22" or runner length. If you have a vortech...the compressed air takes so long to get to the combustion chamber that it is actually hotter when it gets in there than when it was compressed.

With LT1's this isn't so obivous because their runner length is about 3".

huge difference

DARCOM

i have a vortch and have had no problems
with it ,iv been using it for three years now.

check out my simple page at:
http://darcom.home.texas.net/


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388 SuperRam, DFI, Vortech R trim ,N.O.S.,alki injection,
Dart sportmansII heads,50 pound injectors, Headman full headers
duel 3' exhaust,and Flowmasters, Ford nine inch with 370's
Ronal rims with Nitto drad raidals.