Guido

Dont know if any of you remembr Lutes from a while back on thirdgen.org days but we email back and forth once in a while and he recently sent me some photos of a new intake setup and his turbo setup is pictured. Im not exactly sure what the size fo the turbo is. He is hoping for some 10 second passes before too long. Getting his DFI tuned currently.

Willie

iTrader: (1)

Sure I remember Lutes. He's the guy who stiffed Rob P for $250 for some misrepresented runners. Rob even sent the runner back to Lutes but never received his money back. Did he ever pay Rob back?

Willie

Bob Wooten

that is pretty much what i am lookin' to do with my 'maro.

BW

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Bob Wooten
71 Camaro, 91 EFI
r71chevy@earthlink.net
www.r71camaro.homestead.com
<><

monte-ss

holly hell batman that looks like a nightmare !! cool but Id hate to have to work on it.

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'87 Monte Carlo SS,with '89 IROC 350,700 trans, blew up 3.73 posi stuck with crappy 2.73's neeed gears! hooker headers, flowmaster 2 1/2" exhaust true dualls, recently installed a set of alum vette heads 58cc, new cam for a paxton, recently installed paxton, OMG need a posi bad. So if anyone knows where a buick GN 8.5" rear is let me know.

Bob Wooten

But if you wanna play..............

------------------
Bob Wooten
71 Camaro, 91 EFI
r71chevy@earthlink.net
www.r71camaro.homestead.com
<><

Bob Wooten

Any chance of getting a shot down onto the Turbo?

Also, why does he have two wastegates on it? does he have another turbo hidden there somewhere?

BW

------------------
Bob Wooten
71 Camaro, 91 EFI
r71chevy@earthlink.net
www.r71camaro.homestead.com
<><

Guido

ive got some more older pictures of his setup here:

http://home.webworks2000.net/guido/lutes

GMI FAST

Oh... my... god... That looks absolutely terrible. Looks like Jethro Clampett's attempt at forced induction. This guy should have just bought a big blue bottle.

------------------
1989 T/A, 400" CNC Bow-Tie tall-deck, JE 8.5:1 pistons, Scat H-beam 6" rods, Scat 4340 crank, Crower roller cam, AFR heads, Tiffin Racing sheetmetal intake, Holley 75mm t/b, DFI, variable injector controller, 72# inj., S/X dual-pump fuel system, Hahn Racecraft T76 single turbosystem, NOS 150-hp dry fogger, TH400 w/GV overdrive, Dana 44 w/Detroit Locker and 3.70's, Baer Track brakes, Simmons FR 18X9 and 18X10 wheels, P265 and P285/35ZR18 Nittos, Spohn suspension, Eibach racing springs w/adjustable-height collars, billet camber/caster plates, KYB AGX adjustable shocks/struts, Corbeau Targa RS seats, TeamTech 5-point harnesses, Sparco steering wheel, MacEwen white gauge overlays, Phantom gauges/tach, B&M Pro Stick w/carbon-fiber ****, REAL carbon-fiber dash/console kit (don't ask), S&W 8-point rollbar, Lonza aluminum pedal covers, Pioneer/Boston Acoustics stereo system, filled side markers, Audi fender marker lights, IMSA-style cowl hood (don't ask), custom medium Intense Blue pearl paint, tinted glass. Whew!

Best ET w/383" S-trim: 10.796 @ 125.8 mph
Best ET w/400" turbo, nitrous: Summer 2001

Member of Midwest F-Body Association www.mfba.org

Bob Wooten

GMI,

Question about this setup. as you seem to be the guru around here, how come he has two Wastgates on this? or is one not a waste gate? is there a volume issue with having only one wastgate on a single? i would think that you could just buy a larger one. is one a wastgate & the other a over pressure device?

Not to be a jerk, but i hope that you & this guy are friends & that you are just giving him a hard time. if that is the case then forgive me. if not I think that it is pretty un-called for to hammer on the dude 'cause he does not have the resources that you do. some of us do it ALL ourselves in our garages & dont have the $ or connections to have it done by the pro's. some of us are the head cook AND bottle washers.

again, if it was meant in jest, forgive me, if not lighten up

BW

------------------
Bob Wooten
71 Camaro, 91 EFI
r71chevy@earthlink.net
www.r71camaro.homestead.com
<><

Jester

No Bob it's not in jest. GMI fast does this for a living, and thusly tends to look down his nose at anyone that doesn't spend at least 10k on a setup. He's left me a few choice comments on my project before too

TO answer your question yeah, it is about volume, and balance of backpressure. He's feeding all the engines exaust through a single turbo, one integral wastegate isn't enough to bypass enough ai. Nor would it be a good idea to just let one side bypass the turbo.

------------------
"American made baby. 100% American iron. The muscle among the masses. My hero. Yep, you can take your ergonomically designed, space age, computer controlled, 4 door, cup holding map lighted split double wishbone split fold down retractable cargo covered moon roof piece of transportation and keep it. For I have felt the thunder. And I know the difference!"
JSP Motorsports
ICON Motorsports

racer

I know this guy and his setup is really cool. And for you GMI fast, what the hell are you talking about? Just becasue seomeone can't sepend 20,000 dollars on their car means its horrible? This car will be faster than yours and he's spent about 5,000 on the motor and transmission togethter ! he made everything himself to make this all work. It might not look the best or have all the namebrand parts but it RUNS. Those are the people who really know what their doing. THose who can make cars go without spending alot of money. Hell, anybody can take 20,000 dollars and have a car built to go fast. What's the fun or point of that? I'm just saying lighten up. I think it looks sweet and it seems that everyone else here does too except you. And i think it might be becasue he's faster and hasn't spent near as much on it. But maybe i'm wrong?

GMI FAST

You guys need to lighten up! I can give my opinion like anyone else on this board. I think it looks like CRAP. Not because I am a guru, by any means. I personally like my car to look GOOD. I don't give a crap if the guy spent $50 or $5000 on the engine. If it runs, great. If it runs fast, even better! Good for Kyle! I just said it looks fugly. And I am allowed to express my opinion. So settle the hell down. If you guys think it looks cool, more power to you. Here's why I don't like it:
1) Mild steel components.
2) Header wrap. Period. Reduces life of metal components. Not to mention it looks like Stevie Wonder installed it.
3) Twin wastegates. Not necessary. If it boost creeps, buy a bigger wastegate.
4) Fuel pressure regulator location.
5) Throttle body location.
You guys have never voiced your opinion on the appearance of someone's mods? Hmmm... How many times has everyone called "rice" when somone in the Appearance section shows photos? That's what I thought. Regardless if Kyle did the work himself, I think things could have been a bit more "tidy". Maybe he isn't done yet? Cool! It will probably look better later. Oh, and I am NO guru. Yes, my boss is. No, I don't make a ton of money. Yes, I am doing the work myself, with help from friends. Yes, my headers and intercooler pipes are made by my boss. Yes, I have "connections". Yes, the 3 other car enthusiasts I showed the pictures to agreed that it looks terrible. No, they are not GURUS, either. Just people that like engines to look nice. No, he is not faster than me. Guido said he is "hoping" for 10's. My times are in my sig for my OLD combo. For the record, this was no personal attack on Kyle's monetary investment in the engine, nor was it meant to imply the engine will not run well. I merely stated my personal opinion on the engine's APPEARANCE, just like everyone else does about wheels, graphics, paint, hoods, wings, and interiors...

Bob Wooten

Speaking for myself, I agree with ALL your points, especially the technical ones.

My point was that you could have used some tact.

And NO, i have never said the word rice in reference to anything but food. DONT try to wrap every present in one box, they dont fit.

thanks for the technical input, i was hoping for more though, i still dont understand, & that is what i am about.

BW

------------------
Bob Wooten
71 Camaro, 91 EFI
r71chevy@earthlink.net
www.r71camaro.homestead.com
<><

GMI FAST

Bob, the purpose of the wastegate is to vent unwanted exhaust gases in to the exhaust system so they do not travel through the turbine wheel. This is what regulates boost pressure. If the wastegate exhaust port is not large enough to handle the amount of gas volume, the exhaust has no where else to go but through the wheel. This unfortunately raises boost pressure past the set limit, which is called "boost creep". There are 2 ways to fix this. 1) In an internal wastegate turbo system, use a larger exhaust housing with the same exhaust wheel. This allows exhaust to travel around the wheel instead of through it. 2) In an external system, such as Kyle's, make sure your wastegate port is large enough to vent the gases properly. Kyle has chosen Turbonetics Deltagate wastegates. They work okay on small turbo, low boost systems. The Racegate would have been a better choice, as this unit has a larger chamber volume and port diameter. In any case, Kyle may have been experiencing boost creep and felt the need for 2 'gates. Or possibly was unaware that only one 'gate is needed in a single turbo setup. It basically is done for better boost control.

racer

Well first of all the twin wastegates ARE necessary. It's better to use two deltagates than it is to use one racegate. He said he found a deal on those two deltagates so he bought them. And whats wrong wtih the fuel pressure regulator location? I personally think it looks good there. Alot of people put theirs there. And it sounds like your boss does the hard part of the work for you as well. I know Kyle did it ALL himself on a tight budget. He made the headers, pipes, intake elbow, everything that could be made he made in interest of money. Not faster than you GMI? That car will go easy 10.50s with a descent tune on it. LOW LOW 10s without too much trouble. My point is that some of use have to make things and do all the work AFTER we get off work. We can't spend the time and money it takes to have a perfect engine bay. This has to be one of the fastest cars i've ever seen on a tight budget.

TTA

I havent seen anyone really have good luck with Deltagates either. The Racegate would have been a better way to go.

I gotta give props for the Do it at Home Job though. 95% of people are screaming at the turbo companys for a Bolt in Kit.

It may not look pretty, but it probably works.

I agree on the Mild Steel and Header Wrap.. Yuck..



------------------
Mike
1989 Turbo Trans-Am
11.25@121.25
Daily Driver

1998 Trans-Am LS1 6 Speed
13.10@106
Slow POS sitting in the Driveway awaiting repairs and then its For Sale. No More V8 Cars for me.

askulte

I'm running a Deltagate on each exhaust manifold. When I had one manifold signal Teed for both 'gates, I was seeing some boost creep in cold, dense air. Now that I have a pressure line from each turbo outlet going one Deltagate, I am not seeing any boost creep. It doesn't make sense to upgrade to Racegates for me yet, since the manifold wastegate passage is smaller than the wastegate disc valve itself.

FWIW, this is running on 5 psi springs on a fairly stock L98 @ 114 mph.

Andris, king of home built Have welder, will weld!

Bob Wooten

[QUOTE]Originally posted by GMI FAST:
Kyle has chosen Turbonetics Deltagate wastegates. They work okay on small turbo, low boost systems.
~~~ this does not make sense to me, dont you mean small turbine, low volume applications? if the size of the wastegate is the issue & adding a second one was the fix then the volume of gas going through it (bypassing the turbine) needs to be increased. am i on crack here?

The Racegate would have been a better choice, as this unit has a larger chamber volume and port diameter.
~~~~ I understand now. I am picturing here that @ mid RPM (3000), the boost is going to be some psi & the volume of gas that is going through the wastegate is going to be X & all will be happy. when the motor gets to double that the exhaust volume is going to be 2X & the wastegate is going to have to flow more air to keep the boost @ some value. @ some point it will not be able to flow more air & this is when the turbine speed is going to start going up again & creating more boost. AKA, boost creep. I think i get it now.

I would think that the best way to remidy this would be one larger wastegate, cause it would be easier to control one than two.

thanks to all
BW


------------------
Bob Wooten
71 Camaro, 91 EFI
r71chevy@earthlink.net
www.r71camaro.homestead.com
<><

GMI FAST

Racer: Yes, like I said, if one chooses to use the Deltagate, they WILL need 2. If Kyle was on a budget, he would have bought 1 Racegate. The Deltagate has a 1.25" port diameter, which is good for 350-400hp each. That is why he needs 2. The Racegate uses a 1.625" port, which will support 900hp with the proper spring. Did you know that? Of course not.

Faster than me? Doubtful. Not from what I am looking at. I went 10.79 on my old Vortech 383" combo. My present setup has been used on a car that ran 9.60's with a smaller engine than me.

No, my boss is merely finish-welding my headers that I measured, ordered the pipes, cut, and tack-welded. All in MY garage. The only reason he is finishing them is because I can't TIG-weld 304 SS well. My headers even use proper material with no header wrap. Imagine that! Mine was also done on a budget, with NO exotic parts. My intake is a modified tunnel-ram that I did myself, off the clock, at MY garage. Oh, and for making his own headers, Kyle's driver's-side header surrrrre looks like an aftermarket unit that has been "flipped".

And about the fuel regulator? Look where it's at again, Einstein. Right above a wastegate that will reach a couple hundred degrees! Hope he doesn't ever get a fuel leak, because you can't run 10's with your ride on fire. Did you think of that? Of course not.

Anyway, in closing, if you read my first post, I never said the thing wouldn't run. I never made fun of his money spent. I just said I think it looks horrible.

[This message has been edited by GMI FAST (edited May 18, 2001).]

racer

Haha...of course not...what are you talking about? Yes I know all about deltagates and racegates. Your not giving me any new information. If you would have read the post above, i said he got the two for a great deal. Paid 250 for one brand new one and a slightly used one. I'd say that's less than one racegate, or maybe i don't know the price of a racegate i guess...of course not. He did it all in HIS garage as well. I helped with some. Nobody else. Yours was on a budget...good one. A full turbo kit would cost more than his whole damn setup. And all stainless pipe...please. Come on now. As far as the regulator thing...if an aeromotive regulator can't take a couple hundred degrees (which it won't even get that hot in the first place) then they shouldn't be making regulators. What's it gonna do? Melt? And if he does spring a leak, then it is his own fault for not getting the fittings tight i guess. I guess any fuel line could leak and spray on headers and catch fire. So what's so different on any ohter car? Does fuel only leak from the regulator? Last thing, i dont know what you were trying to say about the headers. They are flowtech headers flipped. There is nothing wrong with them being mild steel. They've lasted just fine last year with a 355 twin T03 turbo setup. So i guess your just trying to say it's ugly. That's okay. We just want you to realize the fact that there are people who cannot get all the parts to make it look nice. We have to use what we have or what we can get. I'd almost be willing to bet you got more money in your exterior (excluding motor and trans) parts than he has in his whole setup. You have to admit its a hell of a job for what's he's got to work with. BTW, it's a T72 bought off a friend that has a 9 second GN, used but in perfect condition for 800 dollars. I'm glad that your car is badass and you have the money to spend to make it badass. Just don't rail on people who can't do the same. For some, it's just not possible.

Bobalos

GMI,
how about my question about the small turbo, low boost?


Racer,
what are the headers off of? they look like the S10 V8 swap shorties?

BW

------------------
Bobalos
aka Bob W.
www.r71camaro.homestead.com
r71chevy@earthlink.net
<><

GMI FAST

Racer: What I meant about headers was the fact that you said Kyle made his own. Now you say they are "flipped" headers. Okay... Yes, I am on a budget. It is just higher than Kyle's, and then some. As for my exterior, the entire bodywork on the car including paint is less than $1500. I know the bodyshop owner, and he owes me a huge favor. I'll be the first one to admit that my project is very expensive. But I can afford it, I want it, and I am doing it. I can't think of one car enthusiast that doesn't like showing off his ride. Hell, I'm such a stickler for details that just about every bolt and fastener under the hood is polished stainless! I plan on racing the car often, showing it at car shows with the hood UP, and driving it on the street as often as possible. I just prefer to do it in a car that turns heads...

Bob: No, I meant "small turbo, low boost" as stated. A small turbine and low volume are relative to a small turbocharger, so either statement is valid.

96BlownSSragtop

iTrader: (5)

Actually Dan, I don't think terrible was the word I used. I think the words cobbled, death trap and POS were used during our discussion.

High horsepower/fast cars and cobbled engineering never result in good things.

If you are going to do something worthwhile, spend the time, and the money, to do it right. It doesn't take that much longer or cost that much more to make something look PHAT. If you can't afford to do it correctly, then maybe you shouldn't be doing it at all.

Hat's off to the guy for tackling the turbo task, but past experience shown by others that have done the 'homebuilt turbo' kit have shown the money and effort would have been better spent on a big blue bottle with MUCH better results.

Running 10's? Who knows. Who really cares. Any cars running 10's is impressive, a cobbled car surviving a 10 second run is a miracle.

Chris
Look good, go faster RACING

BTW, the cooks and bottle washers in our areas spend their money wisely and run the Big Blue Bottle and run well!!! The chefs can afford to do and drive whatever they want.



[This message has been edited by 96BlownSSragtop (edited May 19, 2001).]

GMI FAST

The truth hath been spoken, brother Chris.

Hey gimme a call at work Monday and I will order those expensive silicone hose couplers and clamps for you. Oh, and we're fresh out of header wrap. Sorry.

89ProchargedROC

lol, no comment on any of this.

you know what we talked about this at the meeting dan

GMI FAST

You know it, 89Procharged! Call me at work when you are ready to order that big secret weapon, bro...

------------------
Big Boost & Good Looks Racing Team

[This message has been edited by GMI FAST (edited May 21, 2001).]

Guido

Here is what I have to say.

Hey it can work. There is a webpage floating around where this capri guy put twin junkyard turbo's on and he ran 10.70's @ 132 or something ludicrous like that. It looks like crap but it runs like a bat our of hell. The moral? Looks can be deceiving.

Personally, I like things that look more organized. Its more expensive to use stainless tubing and build your own headers but I feel it looks better, and the stainless will last longer. So I am buying it the materials a little at a time. And a guy I work with used to build headers for a living is going to help. Im pretty fortunate. Some people are not.

Im personally a neat freak so I know I would have spent more time making thing look more organized.

I wish Kyle good luck with his setup. He does have DFI on it and as bad as the header setup may look, he is getting the exhaust to the turbo, and the boost is making its way to the TB so odds are, it probably will work.

------------------
-86 IROC
Jacked up like a mother!
this years goal: 10.50 @ 130+ mph
-=ICON Motorsports=-

JAYDUBB

http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/D...68/ttcapri.htm
http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/D...8/BudgetTT.htm
http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/G...rdysMalibu.htm
http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Downs/8668/dadTT.htm
http://www.y-t-g.com/turbomonte.html
http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Garage/1378/

Just figured you guys might wanna see these pages.

Guido

http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Downs/8668/dadTT.htm

you guys REALLY need to check this one out if you havent. Its amazing!

One Eyed Jack

https://www.thirdgen.org/messgboard/...ML/000818.html

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1992 Pontiac Firebird
- 5.0L V8 TBI
- Automatic Trans

TheWraith

that thing is sick! the intercooler setup is sweet too....that would fit nicely in place of my ac condenser