darkstar575

I have an l98 355 in my camaro. Im attempting to run a turbo setup on my car but am unsure which way to do it. Rear mout, Twins in the front, or one big turbo in the front. Which would be the best way to do it, and what turbo size I should use.I also am running 9.7 compression, is that 2 much? My freinds are telling me that a t62 is way too big if i wanna go single... Turbonetics is telling me t70? Which would be safer and easier to deal with. Thanks.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

It depends on your cash stack, fab skills, engine knowledge. Rate and then people can help you on which way to go.

Does your friend really know more about turbos than Turbonetics?? By the sounds of it, I would not listen to his turbo advice.

darkstar575

Fabrication isnt that big of a problem, i know alot of people. I have about 1000, but depending on what would be better and or easier to tune ill go that rout regardless the money id have to spend... im not rich either though...My freind went twin turbo with 900 dollars... so . I just wanto do it right ...any suggestions?

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

In that case, fab everything & buy a used turbo. That will keep you under 1K$

Easier to tune?? L98 355ci are easy to tune......what ever that is??
Your compression is fine, just run low boost or race gas. Biggest thing is getting it tuned right and not using parts that are already on their way out.
Since you are on a tight budget, I would use whatever turbo you get a good deal on. Anything with a 60mm to 80mm inducer wheel and approriate sized turbine A/R. The time & budget always determine how picky you can be in choosing parts. In your case, you can't be too picky. Got any pics of the twin $900 setup? How many miles on it so far?

Z69

For a single on a 355, I wouldn't go any smaller than a T62 or similar. My plan is for a T70 so I have some range on where I can run boost at. A new T70 is around $850 with turbine housing.

Used twins are the only way to do it cheaply unless you get lucky and find one of the above that someone wants to move quickly.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

Yeah, a T70 would probably be about the best choice. New is nice, but his budget would only allow a used diesel turbo. After almost completing my second JYard turbo setup.......I think a used oil cooled single is about the cheapest and quickest way to go. Got one planned for the spring if I ever get the current turbo project done.
darkstar575, I am building a twin setup right now with JYard turbos and I am on track to spending $1200 for the setup and I built as much as I could myself. That excludes all tools that I had to buy for the project.

Z69

The HX50 or 55 from diesels might be easier to find used and are similar in size to a T70.
Came on Cummins and some others I think.
I know very little about that brand.

89JYturbo

Do you know how often I wanted to say this? SO often people want to turbocharge their engine but don't want to spend much money, and I have trouble giving my opinion. Now I know what to say next time! Its almost like scripture.

89JYturbo

I do think you can turbocharge an L98 for $1200 and still have good results, but it will take some very careful planning and preparation, and would assume you are well equiped with tools and knowledge. FWIW, I figure my original TT system on my IROC cost around $3500 using used turbos. That price includes all the fuel system upgrades, the intercoolers, MSD BTM, lines/hoses/couplers, everything. I splurged a bit for nice AN fittings and braided stainless hoses as well (for the turbo oil feeds and fuel line plumbing). I could do it again for a lot cheaper now that I have more experience in turbocharging.

darkstar575

That twin turbo setup is on a 305 carb. Hes running two mercedes benz turbos. Didnt come out half bad for 900 dollars, hes ripping my freinds ls1 formula. I was thinking about the holset turbos aswell, it would be a cheap alternative. A freind told me that two kkk k03 passat turbos would run pretty well, and that they're set at 7psi so its not overkill on my motor. But they're damn expensive, a local junkyard was going to charge me 175 each.... I could get them on ebay for 150ish. The pistons I purchased for the 350 are hyperuetectic... will they hold up under boost, or should i spend some cash on forged parts.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

Be careful when taking the cheap route. Often reliability is sacrificed. If you want it reliable and cheap then you need to spend more time on it. As an example, I made my own exhaust manifolds. I had to get a stick welder so I planned ahead and started asking around if anyone new of used DC/AC welders for sale.
I ended up with a mid-70's AIRCO 250 amp model that had been sitting outside for years. It is huge but I got it for free so I considered it a score. It cost $200 in parts to make a 50ft extension cord, leads, gloves, etc. I had to figure out how to weld cast iron and researched on the web (more time). I bought some nickel 60% rod and 7018 rod to practice with because I had never ARC welded before. I ended up buying more nickel rod because I ran out while welding the wastegate flanges. Although, I had enough rod left that time to do the 305ci turbo project.
After all that, I had to true the T3 flange slightly (I used 1/2" plate) and true the exhaust to cyl. head flange so I bought two new files and a roll of 80 emery cloth and used a straight edge (level) to file & sand them to within .003"
That is one long winded example of where you could save a little while maintaining reliability, BUT it takes a lot of time.
My cheap manifolds cost: welder parts+consumables+tools, or some of $200+$20+$40 = part of $260 and some steel plate I had from other projects (about $30). Just material for the manifolds was about $20 in nickel rod. So how do you figure the manifold cost???
The T3 flanges were cut out of 1/2" mild steel, formed with a carbide burr, drilled, and tapped 3/8"-16 NC. More time spent to save $$$. I already had 3/8-16" studs and locknuts and wanted the flange port matched to the turbo.
I could have saved a lot of time not truing the mating surfaces, port matching, and tapping holes. All would make it less reliable.

Heck, I would even try to make my own turbos if I had the tools.
Not that they would come out right, but it would be fun to try.

Some extra info about diesel turbos. I have a Holset H2D off of an L10. The inducer is 63 or 64mm, and the turbine is 19cm^2 which comes out to be roughly .75 A/R when measured with a rule. Good for a 305ci or a low HP (under boost) 350ci. Some members of TM claimed to have made 720HP with one. I am targeting 500HP for that project. Crank HP.

darkstar575

I was making measurements and planning out how and where to mount my turbos and my exhaust piping etc. I found that if I go with a single setup its going to be a pain! If i run 2 turbos it would make it way more simple. My friend running the 2 benz turbos bought sbc blockhugger headers for 50 dollars on ebay (I need to find the link)and turned them upside down, then cut the exhaust piece off and had a shop weld the t4 adapter to them for 50 bucks... easy twin turbo headers for 100 dollars! Well i wanted to know what the best way to run an intercooler in the 3rd gen camaro would be, if im running 2 turbos....im trying to find those small intercoolers so I could run 2, but have no luck...Anybody know where to find them?

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

Mild steel turbo headers??? $50 block huggers are probably 18 gauge mild steel. Yep, he sacrificed reliability. I suppose he got the T4 adapters for free then! Those cars ran T4 turbos??? What year & model Mercedes? You think 18 gauge will take the weight of T4s and turbo heat?
You want small intercoolers??? Better off with none in that case.
Anyway, don't build your setup like your friends. Not to poke holes in his setup....I am sure it will last a year or two.
You are obviously mislead. One turbo is much easier to install than two. What size downpipes are you trying to run? Mild steel headers are fine for the race car but not streetable. Could post some pics....maybe I am wrong. I can only guess without seeing them. Think about it though, a good set of Hooker N/A headers are $300-$400.

Take a look at the turbomustangs.com intercooler page. Plenty of pictures with measurements. Then check the local junkyards or Google with an intercooler search.

darkstar575

Some ...alot of people run 2 small intercoolers in front. One for each turbo. I've heard only good things. I believe the guy with the tt iroc is running two small intercoolers, and he's running low 12's and hasnt had any problems that I know about. I'm sure you don't need a huge intercooler for a street turbo system boosting at max 9-10 psi. I just can't find any small intercoolers on ebay. If anyone could get me a link to a website or something on ebay i'd really appreciate it. My friend told me to run two small passat turbos to start then upgrade to t04's later on.

darkstar575

If a turbo is oil and water cooled do I need to run both, or could I just run oil vice versa. Is it a good idea to run a water/oil cooled turbo?

89JYturbo

You need to run oil to the turbos at a minimum. The oil is what lubricates the bearings, and the turbo would fail in an instant if it was running at high speeds with no oil pressure. The oil drain from the turbo is also very critical and a common place for people to make mistakes. Read those books!

The water cooling is an option in most cases. I feel water cooling is more for a grocery getter type car that will never get idle time before shut down and will go 5k+ miles between oil changes. With the respect any gear head would give his/her car, I think the water cooling option can be deleted, unless you do road or indurance type racing. Also, synthitic oil will be more tolerant of heat and can further reduce the need for water cooling. My first turbo system did use water cooling, because my Volvo turbos had the water jackets in them. When I upgraded the turbos, I opted to buy bearing sections that were dry (no water jacket) so I could remove the clutter of coolant hoses going to the turbos.

89JYturbo

Now on to the intercooler debate.

I run two smaller intercoolers instead of one large one. Since my system was originally and budget/junkyard approach, I chose intercoolers off of late 80's Turbocharged Probe GT's. They are pretty small, with 1-7/8 diameter inlet and outlets. I'm not sure if they are a bottle neck or not. I did find that the bost pressure increases about 1psi (maybe 2psi max), by connecting the wastegate sense hoses to the intake manifold instead of the compressore outlets. So that 1-2psi change gives a rough idea of the pressure loss in my charge plumbing, ICs, and the MAF sensor (I blow through the MAF sensor). I have not tested the pressure difference with the new turbos yet. I would like to take the time to measure both the temp drop and the pressure drop under max load.

Pic of the Probe intercoolers:

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

I can't debate intercooler / non-intercooler. I don't have one so I don't have any real world numbers. So far, I have only played with the gncalculator to predict pressure drop vs. heat rise due to more boost.

I would think the two Probe intercoolers are definitely a plus on your setup. If you get the temp sensors then you can really nail it down. Are you running the V6 air temp sensor? If not, give it a try. It has an open element vs. the stock brass capped sensor. You will notice it responds a lot faster to boost temp rise. This would help getting the mixture rich at the onset of boost and beyond. It is amazing how slow the stock v8 MAT responds to air temp. The V6 IAT is more sensitive to vibration. I installed mine in the intake pipe and plan on replacing it yearly. They are relatively cheap.

What RPM and boost PSI do you see the 1+ PSI drop. I am curious because you can figure the CFM flowing at the press. drop. The TM site has some data from press. drop on Volvo & SAAB intercoolers. From memory, it seemed like two early 1990 Volvo ICs would work for the stock 305ci twin setup. Both in parallel to make it about 2.5 inches wide. For the 355ci I am using three SAAB ICs that are bar & plate (the Volvos are not Bar & plate). I think the Probe ICs are.

All of the 10+ wheeled trucks I have seen are only oil cooled. Some cars are oil & water for the reasons that 89JYTurbo stated. The water lines are a pain to layout. I wouldn't "cap off" the water jacket for a water cooled turbo. Seems odd having a big air pocket there. It would act as a big heat pocket with dis-similiar cooling properties than the surrounding cast iron.
It may be fine to do. I really don't know.

ttypecamaro

iTrader: (2)

I have 2 stock intercoolers from two 87 thunderbird turbocoupes. I had to shave 1/4" off the deflector plate thing of one of the intercoolers. They to fit side-by-side behind the front metal bumper. I was actually very impressed at how well they fit. I drilled holes in each corner of the plate thing and drilled holes in the bumper and bolted them together. I think the plate thing was actually an air deflector because they were origionally top mounted. The inlets are 2.5" and the outlets are just over 2". I'll try to gt som pictures if wanted.
.
Oh, and I got them on e-bay for $4.24 and $20.

darkstar575

Those intercoolers fit very well in the tt iroc. They look good 2. I just cannot seem to find them on ebay. I did find the ford thunderbird intercoolers tho. What turbos which turbo chargers should I use for a twin setup, before I go ahead and buy some. Which volvo turbos did you use jyturbo? Have any suggestions on which turbos or turbo I should spend my money on?

89JYturbo

No, I'm running the stock V8 sensor. I know there are different sensors, and want to upgrade to the open element unit. Do you have a part number for it?

The pressure differential I detected was when I removed my WG sesne hoses from the compressor outlets and connected them the the intake plenum. I noticed when I did this that my boost increased from 5psi to 6psi (creeps near 7psi at max RPM- which may indicate my WGs are a little small). This 1-2psi difference I'm seeing is because the pressure is about 1-2psi higher at the compressor outlets than in the intake mainfold. So the pressure drop through the entire intake (piping, ICs, MAFS, and throttle body) is 2psi or less. It was not live testing where I was physically testing pressure at bot points though.

My Probe ICs appear to be tube and fin.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

The temp. sensor is: WELLS SU107
It requires a different connector or grind your connector keys. The temp. sensor is numb to polarity anyway.

A pic of the temp. sensor connector & the AC- Delco part number are located at http://www.megasquirt.info/, click on the
"sensors and wiring" on the left and scroll down about half way or search for IAT on that page. It gives everything in terms of part numbers.

metalic5

THE TWIN TURBO 305 IROCZ IS TOP SECRET CLASSIFIED....
this is a Garage Inc top secret shop car and there will be no pics posted, this car has not yet put any ls1 formula to shame but it will soon.... ur next darkstar575

btw, there will be a garage inc meeting concerning ur information reguarding our cars, oh yea the headers are 16 gauge tig welded and i do think that this setup will last more then 1 to 2 years.

also a 62-1 isnt too big but it will give you some turbo lag and the boost comes in u wont keep your car in control....


if you need any help you could contact one of the Garage inc. custom fabricators or techs.
u know them, LS1Gta, 67LS7camaro, TTIrocz, Turbostang, blown327, ls1beast

TurboedTPI

I'd go single. Easier, less piping, cheaper(in most cases), makes good power. I have a single setup and im happy.

KillerZ302

iTrader: (4)

Hey darkstar575 its me the TT 305. I say go with the twins because you have to do less bending and welding. Also the single setup is going to concentrate more heat in your engine bay and melt every wire under your hood (since your fuel inj, you got more wires to worry about than me) and it will put heat on areas (like the front belt area) that are not normally made for that kind of heat. Just ask 89jyturbo about the heat under the hood.
Also my project only cost me $900.00 because I have the tools, shop, and skills to do everything my self. My setup is made to last and is reinforced in every way. I still need tuning and the Alky system installed, but still make power as is.
The passat kkk turbos are way to small for your engine. They are smaller than my Hybrids. Go with T04s.

89JYturbo

I'm actaully wondering if a single turbo system wouldn't cut down on underhood heat. I think part of the problem with my car is that there is too much hot exhuast under the hood. Everything is so crammed up, the heat can't go anywhere. It's really not that big of a problem for me, it's just annoying that you have to wrap all the wiring conduit within two feet of the exhaust to keep it from melting. I think a single turbo could open things up a little more, and there is less exhaust under the hood to pump out heat in the first place.

darkstar575

Hey killerz whats up. You know its kinda funny that im switching my setup... I'm no longer going turbo. Well, for the next 3 months. I found an lt1 with harness and everything for 600 bucks . I sold my old setup and am going to work with the lt1. So now im thinking about swapping to the lt4 hotcam that I have and go with low compression pistons. What do you think? Should I switch the pistons and boost, or keep it stock and boost 5 lbs, is it safe? I heard that since their reverse flow, you could boost more, even though their high compression.

TurboedTPI

Sorry, not to be a jerk, but less piping with a twin setup? Huh? Theres two down pipes, two intercooler pipes, two air filer inlet pipes, two waste gates. How is that less piping? And less heat? Theres two turbos, if anything, it would be more heat. In my fuel injected single turbo setup. There is a wire loom that runs about 3 in from the turbo and its never melted. Not even close. So i dont know what your talking about. Sorry to sound like an know it all.

D's89IROCZ

I don't think you read turbo TPI 's sig . Ummm 570 rwhp ...pump gas . He says it is just like a factory turbo car with the way it runs aswell . SO I would think a single turbo is fine . Just can't wait to get mine on hehehehehehe

KillerZ302

iTrader: (4)

darkstar575 yo thats a good setup to go with. I would just go ahead and put in forged pistons so that you wont have to worry about it in the future. Also my buddy Julius at Neighborhood tire told me today to ask you if you are going to buy the LT1 or not. I was at his shop today working on the Supra. Give him a call. By the way, good choice.

JY89 you do have a good point with the heat issue. Maybe a single would make less heat. You inspired to finish my year long project. Mine looks almost identical in ways to yours. Will post pics soon. Thanks for inspiring me with your pics to finishing my TT project.



I still think the twins are easier because all you need to fab up is two down pipes running down the stock way and the boost side piping. My wastegates are internal, so no fabbing. The cold side tubing is very easy because you use hose couplings to connect them and they dont have to be thick tubing or have to be reinforced in any way or have to worry about burning some thing or wrapping them.
But hey, thats just my two cents!

metalic5

hey killerz302 why dont you put something like a 6.0 liter ls1 in there and then twin turbo that...
join the Garage Inc. crew.


and darkstar575 or what ever it is, do a rebuild on that lt1, dont half *** it.
by the way the T70 turbo will be in my car soon...


From the mind of one great Tech/Fabricator of Garage Inc...
call us if you need any help darkstar...

KillerZ302

iTrader: (4)

Hey metallic5 I am sticking to old school tech for now. No LS1's for now. The Supra's enough of a headach to tune with the the AEM.
I dont need a mess of wires to melt and tuning by computer to give me headachs. Dont get me wrong, the LS1 TT I have thought of and will probably do using the Edelbrock/MSD carb setup for the LS1. I will probably sell the stroker I am building.
Anyway back to the original post, darkstar575 I feel you should at least rebuild the LT1 because it has about 60,000 miles on it and it was raced and driven hard. Trust me, I know the person your buying it from.

I shall think of a carbed Twin turbo LS1 Heavily Modified set up tonight.
Metallic5 I dont need a LS1 now to be in Garage Inc. I am already the fastest one in the Fu*"ing club. I'll rape that 2006 Saleen when I tune my ****. Bring the LS1's and the Chevelle and I'll show you what a little 305 can do.

The Ls1 carbed is a great idea. Thanks. That GTA is one hell of a sleeper, and wait till we put the T60 on it, then you'll really rape me by trains not car lengths. Keep up the good work.

darkstar575

It's unfortunate that I need my car running asap. So the rebuild will have to hold off. I'm going to put the lt4 hotcam in it, new timing chain/gear set, new water pump and opti spark. I'm also installing the lt4 valve springs. My question to you is, will those self-alligning roller rockers you have fit the lt1 heads? Also the original 95 computer and wiring harness should work fine with my 700r4 right? Damn metalic... remember when I raped you with the 5.slow? Hehe... good times...

metalic5

lol... killerz302 yea your fast, i didnt mean that u have to have an ls1 in there to join us, i was just inviting you to join us.

and darkstar from experience i really recommend that you rebuild the lt1 before you put it in, i did the same before and i regreted it when i spun a bearing a few months later. and to have to pull that motor out again later on just to put new rings and bearings, its too much work for that, just do it now...


killerz302 i'm thinking of running a t70 turbo so i'll be asking you for some help when i start the turbo-ing process.
and a carbed turbo ls1 would be a very nice thing to see so tell me about your ideas for one in the future...

KillerZ302

iTrader: (4)

Yes, I am going to do the LS1 TT carbed motor. It will not cost me much because the motors are already a dime a dozen and the intake with the msd timing control thing is only about 600 dollars. The only hard part would be building the motor to take 15 lbs of boost. Also the headers I dont even know where to start. It can be done and will be done soon. When I told everyone I was going to TT my 305 no one believed me, now there all like ohhh wow. With time I will do it while at the same time having my 305 reach its HP and track times goal. Track times will be soon. Dyno data in about a week.

sleepybu

i hope to stat a simler project this summer

darkstar575

I wanna see that dyno data killerz. I also wanto see my car on the road already... I hate driving that van nexto some slow crx I could be spanking in the iroc. Anyways, hopefully when you go to the track I could run ya...

KillerZ302

iTrader: (4)

Hey metalic5 this is a sample of my setup.