SHAWN'89 Z

just wondering what types of intercooler/tubing configurations people are running with vortech's that will fit under a stock hood? thanks

B4Ctom1

there is a member here that is doing it. he used the ATI intercooler setop with a Vortech S-trim and bracket. Vortech non-intercooled boost is supposedly cooler so the intercooler has less work to do to begin with (cooler final air charge).

B4Ctom1

and here is one with the ATI blower

B4Ctom1

some of the Vortech head units can be had with an outlet just like the vortech that might result in a cooler final product but could interfere with the cool air sucting used with the vortech

SHAWN'89 Z

so if i wanted to run a T or YS Trim and make around 15-18psi, I would need something to cool the motor inlet temp's down, in addition to a timing retard, wouldn't I?

B4Ctom1

The timing retard doesnt cool inlet temps bt with pressures like that low compression and race fuel might be explored, intercooling and water, alcohol, or water/alcohol injection might also be looked into.

meffie

Where can one find info on the intercooler setup with the vortech blower? I have a 91 that I'd like to intercool

B4Ctom1

first you order a whole ATI procharger intercooler kit (I suggest either the twin intercooled option or the 3 core), then you order a Vortech kit. There are no "vortech intercooled kits"

meffie

Aye I already have the blower, and I know vortech doesn't make them. I was looking for details on the setup in a 3rd gen

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

You need a curved discharge vortech blower. You can't do it with the straight discharge, which is standard on the fbody kit.

-- Joe

meffie

Oh that sucks, so there's no way to add an intercooler to my setup?

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Not easily. I investigated this route and finally ditched the idea and went with a water/alky injection setup.

Plus I don't get the cons of boost loss. Sure you'll get cooler charge out of it, but you'll loose 1-3psi of boost - and your compressor will still be working as hard. With the water/alky injection, you keep your boost, you cool stuff down and prevenet detonation and can run more timing.

-- Joe

B4Ctom1

yeah there is no way to add one like the guy already did above

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Tom,

I discussed this with you in IRC the other day. You would need a curved discharge vortech, like in the picture you posted. NOT like the one he has, or I have in the picture he posted. So after you spend $1900 on a new compressor, and another $1500 or so on the IC setup you might as well hang yourself for not just buying an ATI to begin with.

Maybe vortech might be nice and change the housing for $800 or so, but I doub't it. Once the s/c is used he can't return it for a curved either.

-- Joe

meffie

Got any specifics on the system you used so I can look into it?

Thanks for the info

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I found an old holley kit on ebay.. A few guys, like Darcom have made their own kits..

Search around. You'll find tons of info.

-- Joe

Kenwood

iTrader: (1)

Vortech will sell you the curved discharge tubing and you can add it yourself... IF you have them do it the cost is HIGH because it counts as a rebuild...

Kenwood

F/S CUSTOM YS TRIM brackets and custom cogs>.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I can buy curved 3" tubing too, but if you measure it (which I have) you'll hit the plenum/runners.. The curved vortech housing must be used, which vortech will not sell you. I tried.

-- Joe

maniacc

I'm sorry, but i don't see why you just cant rotate the compressor housing so it points just like ATI unit.

I believe Justin91GTA did this with only a small modification to the housing.

later
larry

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Because it will hit the hood.

And you can't rotate it down because the steering box + pump are in the way.

Can't rotate it so it aims at the fender, cuz the strut tower is in the way.


I'd LOVE to see some pics of someone with a straight discharge who pulled it off. I gave up.

And i'm serious about the pictures. I'd like to know. I tried everything..

-- Joe

maniacc

If i'm reading this post right, here's someone that has accomplished this...

https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...threadid=36797

later
larry

Kenwood

iTrader: (1)

I asked vortech and they said they would sell me one...that was roughly a year ago...??? hmmm

MrDude_1

now im all for just putting water injection, but if you really wanted a intercooler with that blower, couldnt you put some kind of hose from teh blower, UNDER the throttlebody (or over if its oval shaped) then put your air to water intercooler near where the stock battery is on a camaro, then run the air back and into the throttlebody? perhaps even make it come from the front of the radiator like stock and straight back in?



and whats stopping you from adding a extention/adapter and moving the location of the throttlebody?

*shrug*

then again, im looking at random pics on the internet, so i could just be judging everythign wrong and theres no room to go under/over.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Look at the pics in the post. CURVED discharge. Still havn't seen someone do it with a straight setup. All ive seen (or read) is heresey. I'd LOVE to see it done. I'd love to know how.

-- Joe

B4Ctom1

I figured you could re-clock the outlet and do it exactly as a ATI does in the first place, but it stops you from having the inlet piping that you already have to get the ait into the blower.

edit: anesthes just informed me that that "clocking" of the blower results in a hood interference sorry

maniacc

Yes, i realize the pics in the post are of the curved discharge, and '91 formula also said that those are NOT pics of his car,

but he does go on to say .

I'm sorry if I'm wrong, but from all the pics of the vortech's with the straight discharge that i have seen, it does look like it would work.

later
larry

JoBy

Sure there is, There is allways a way!

Look at my friends Twin supercharged intercooled IROC ...





By looking at your picture I see one possible solution like this:

meffie

Well I'm in love! What kind of HP and Boost is he running?


anesthes what's your opinion on that? Didn't you say the elbow wouldn't fit for us?

JoBy

Unknown hp and he saw 13-14 psi for a few moments before loosing 3rd and 4th in the th700.

meffie

Well I just went and took some measurements and I think it might actually work like that. But it appears at the very least we would have to remove the dual fans and go to a single fan setup.

meffie

Well that doesn't surprise me. I wouldn't have even attempted that with a 700. I'm wondering why my 700r4 is still together with 500ftlbs of torque at the rear wheels......

*finds really big piece of wood and knocks the heck out of it with a bat*

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

1) The radiator hose barely fits there w/out rubbing the vortech pully.
2) Where do you plan on running the radiator hose? I mean, that just won't work. you'd never get it onto the thermostat housing.

I spent all night putting my motor back together. And I did take notice again of the supercharger placement. straight up won't work too high, same with at an angle, can't point it twords the fender, can't go down. Only option is a curved discharge and straight back as far as I can see..



-- Joe

meffie

Well I measured exactly 3 inches from radiator to the bolt on the pulley, so that would basicly give what, 1/4" clearance, maybe less. I dunno. I hadn't pondered the radiator hose issue yet, figured I'd look into the discharge side first.

What about angling with a cowl style hood? Think there would be enough room then?

meffie

You know honestly, as I look through all these posts, and various others, I'm really dissapointed in vortech. Before I bought my charger I heard nothing but good things about vortech quality, etc. Now, I wish I had bought another brand, shrug. Oh well, live and learn I guess.

What did you think of that dual charger setup? Pretty cool huh.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Vortech wasn't really into the intercooling thing at first. THey concentrated on compressor efficiency, which results in a cooler outlet temp. ATI will obviously run coolest because of the intercooler, but you have to really look at the data:

1) For each blower to output the same boost pressure (in the plenum) how much power is taken to turn the blower?

The ati will work a lot harder than the vortech to put out the same boost level because of loss in the intercooler plumbing. Thats why I went with the water/alky injection route. I can lower my discharge temps, and reduce detonation without losing boost. The fact is, if I did manage to get the intercooler setup working with the vortech, i'd have to upgrade to a much bigger blower to get the same power output. I don't think the benefit of slightly cooler inlet temps and maybe a degree or two more timing woulda made up in the cost. Do you?

-- Joe

meffie

True I agree with you. Again effeciency goes back to why I got the vortech. I guess I'm just stuck on the whole intercooler thing. My mind for some reason won't sway me. I'm still planning on looking into the injection systems again.

I had looked into when I first heard about them, and tried to find some good info on them and applications, but couldn't really find anything. My guess is there's a lot more out there now, and thus I will begin the hunt again.

maniacc

I'm curious as to why you say that the compressor housing wont turn enough to point toward the driver side fender. is it hitting on the bracket?

Next, i don't think that Vortechs run that much cooler than a ATI, that's why they supply a boost retard with their kit.

The advantage of the intercooler is not having to reduce the timing which will dramatically reduce the output of the engine.

Board member/moderator Willie has done some pretty extensive testing of air temps on his set-up, and proves how well the intercooler works with minimal drop in boost, to overcome that you just change the pulleys, if your not already redlining the impellor speed.

later
larry

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Look at the compressor maps.


We know the advantage of an intercooler. There is still loss. I know about Willie's setup. Lots of people run intercoolers.

My impeller is at max RPM. ANd I cannot afford to lose any boost.

-- Joe

maniacc

Well i guess i'll be quiet now, you seem to have your bases covered.

I'm still curious as to why you can turn the compressor housing, got a pic?

Sorry for trying to help.
later
larry

JoBy

Yes, I would also loke to know why. When rotating the outlet towards the fender you should get more hood clearence.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Then go in your garage, loosen your housing and rotate it. If yours clears the strut tower, and you can run 3" ic piping through the fender, down and into an IC (after you relocate your horns, no biggy) then great! But I allready tried it.

I appreciate everyones input - the first time around. Stop beating a dead horse though. I shared my experience, if you can do better by all means do so. I'd appreciate it - cuz i'd like to know how to do it too.

So please, grab a camara, some piping, and spend some time, and show us the results.

-- Joe

JoBy

Sorry, but I have my Vortech on a C4 Corvette so I can not test it myself.

When looking at the pictures I think you could do it. You don't need a 3" pipe from the supercharger. You can start with a pipe the same size as the supercharger outlet and go bigger when it clears the strut tower.

And my previous idea about the radiator hose. You can change the thermostat housing ... it does not need to point forward as the stock one.

I also think that there is room for a 2.5" pipe above the radiator hose in front of the supercharger.

JoBy

The stock air filter duct over the radiator is about 3" at the rear, quite a bit above the rear of the radiator.

Like this:

maniacc

well i don't have a Vortech on my car, but if you compare that pic above that Joby posted and this pic of my set-up, it sure looks like it wouldn't be a problem.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Hrmm.. I was talking to someone earlier,and from what I understand the camaro hood is much higher up than the firebird?

-- Joe

JoBy

No, Firebird is higher than the Camaro.
The Camaro hood is almost a straight slope.
The Firebird is almost flat near the winshield and steeper slope in front of the wheels.
The biggest differance in height is just above the front wheels.

Compare on this picture:

JeffT

anasthes, take a look around this site. Looks like he did it to me. :lala:


ys trim straight discharge and intercooled

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Thats neat, Jeff, but I don't think you could pull it off and retain the factory hood configuration. especially on a firebird. If you look he pins his hood on, somehow.

I don't see how he pulls off running that tubing over the radiator like that. Maybe you camaro guys have more clearance.

-- Joe

JoBy

He has a hi-rise hood

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Hah. Well I guess thats how he did it.

-- Joe