MCas7

Hey everyone,
I was wondering if anyone had any suggestions on what intake I should get for my sportsman fogger setup. I was thinking of going with the Edelbrock RPM Air Gap or a weiand single plane setup, but I'm not sure and I don't want to buy the wrong one. The motor wants to live in the 2500-6500 rpm range and it makes about 400 hp by itself. The bottom end could handle another 200 safely, so this kit should be fine. Any suggestions?

MrDude_1

vic Jr or any single plane like it...

the motor will like the single plane, and most of the good ones have nice thick bosses you can tap for the foggers.

xpndbl3

iTrader: (5)

i'd say vic jr as well

fb305svs

i'ma vic jr fan myself

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

I’m assuming we’re talking carbed, mild street motor with a 2500-6500rpm “range…” barring more details that would change my mind I’d go with the performer air gap… not as sexy as a single plane but will be faster and more fun to drive (in most cases you might see 2-5hp at the top end by going single plane but loose 15-20 in the midrange which is what it takes to make a car fun and streetable, and unless the rest of the drivetrain is completely optimized to take advantage of the top end and ignore the bottom end…).

unknown_host

iTrader: (1)

Define fun car. Torque is fun on the street but not necessarily beneficial.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

I don't know that I've ever seen a vehicle with too much torque. I've seen drivers that don't know how to use what they've got and I've seen drivetrains that are not strong enough, but not too much torque.

For that matter, we're not really talking about torque so much as more power across the power band, better responsiveness and giving a carb what it needs to have proper fuel delivery.

There is a reason why all the performance crate engines intended for carbureted use come with modern dual plane intakes… Hell, GM made a dual plane carb intake for the LT1 but no single...

unknown_host

iTrader: (1)

Are we talking fun to drive or efficient on the street, because i know cars that blow the tires off in first and 2nd, and hit 3rd and have nothing left. Its hard to use a lot of low end torque on the street.

Cuno

RPM Air Gap.

B4Ctom1

this is soo true. How many times have you seen those same people bothering to post right here about getting more "power" even though they have done nothing to put the power they have to the ground. Its amazing how 16 and 15 second tire spinners can become 14 and 13 second nightmares with a little traction.

this is the first question I ask when people want to go faster. I ask "do your tires spin now?"

fb305svs

tell me about it.... i run high 12's spinnin through 1st and some of 2nd...

my fault, i need to learn the car better to get it off the line... with dr's and the suspension stuff i have, i should be pullin gmuch better 60's, and *** knows whatthat would do for my e/t...

still tho, i have the vic jr single plane, and i've got more than enough down low, even with 3.42 gears.

dont get me wrong, im going 410's this winter, but the car ran well with the 342's too.... you could still stomp it at 2500 and light em up in 2nd gear no problem

bnoon

Drag car? Street car? Weekend warrior? Are you keeping the AT and 2500 stall that's listed in your member description? With that stall, and using up to a 200 shot of nitrous, the new stall will most likely be several hundred RPM higher unless you're using a window switch. Tell us more about the whole system. Sure, a dual plane will get more low end torque, but with that converter, it may be all wasted on the stall. In that case, I would for sure go with just about any single plane.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

This is about the most intelligent thing that has bee said about this here... I've run as fast as 1.71 60' on stock radials with a stockish rear suspension (I did take the rear spring isolators out and had an aftermarket panhard rod). I'm still fairly certain that with more normal tires there would be quite a bit more potential there (275 40 17 GSC's are nowhere near a good tire to do this on, I've run similar times on 245 50 16 Eagle ZR's and whatever runflats the Z06's run, all terrible tires for straight line traction, one of the cars was lowered ~2" and setup for roadracing… all of them had the front sway bar installed…, no tricks).

My point being that you should be able to run at least 1.7's, probably 1.6's on radials, and much better on DR's or real drag tires. Until you're there I would say that spinning off the line… is more a question of "driver error" then too much torque or anything else.

If you're running in the 1.2-1.4 range with sticky tires and still able to blow off the tires on a launch then I would start to listen to "too much torque" arguments, but then I would also suggest that you try to mitigate it with timing, which is much more controllable and can be used to adapt to track conditions also.

4.10's should make things better, I've found steeper gears easier to "drive" especially with a manual tranny. The other advantage is that with steeper gears it's easier to hold it before shifting to a slightly higher rpm which will actually help prevent spinning too much on a hard shift.

The typical car built to run to 6500rpm with what people call a 2500-6500rpm powerband will usually run fastest at the track with a 3600-4200stall converter. If that’s' what you're running the go ahead, go single plane. If you're running a 2500rpm converter and rolling on the street then you'll be happier with a good, performance dual like the air-gap.

fb305svs

Thanks for the post 83- good news to hear. i really think this car regardless of the weight should run at the very least a low 12 the way it sits.

I have a bit of drag strip experiance, but with a much lower powered car... totally different game when 400ftlbs is on tap off the line!

Not only that, but the addition of better dr's (i want to pick up a set of telstars and run a 15" radial rather than the 16" ones) i think that will also help traction. i think i would **** a brick if i ran a 1.6 60' lol... needless to say, my dr's that i have been using are bald as hell, with pretty much just barely any evidence of tread left...

I'm also hoping that i'll get some gaines at the other end of the track with the gears. with the 3.42's i was having to shift into 4th just before the traps, bringing the motor down in the rpms, and away from the peak hp. the gears should help get the rpms back up and keep the motor in peak power better (mecanical advantage have any effect here?)

So all in all, i would LOVE to run 11's n/a... would be lots of fun to be able to shut a few people up. unfortunately, i have this feeling my trans is gonna break this year and i'll be out of luck... we'll see tho... guess we'll see how much abuse this WC t-5 can take

Steve

MCas7

Well I plan on mostly street driving at the moment, but there will come the time when I get a little too much for the street and have to retire it to just a drag car. I only plan on using the nitrous at the track obviously, and I think I am going to run it off of a shifter button or something. I have done some research on what kind of manifold I should get, and I think i'm going to go with the RPM Air Gap. The drivetrain "should" hold up. I just had the tranny rebuilt, so that shouldn't crap out. The only thing that I would be worried about would be the rearend. It has an auburn posi in it, but it is basically still the stock 7.5. If I blow it, there are a million more in the junk yard that I can snag, but I will probably just end up saving some money and putting either a 9" or a 12 bolt in it. Thanks for all of your opinions and comments.

OMINOUS_87

What ya got packed in the motor? That is need to know info for picking a intake.

Since you got the fogger setup the sky is the limit for intake choices.

I side with 83 CTA, single plane small cube setups arent as much fun on the street.

They surge at low RPMs and you have to wait to get into the band, usually after 3000RPM.

RPM Air Gap is king of the hill for dual planes, there really isnt a second choice.

Post the motor specs.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

A few thoughts here… there are quite a few guys out there running 1.5's on 245 50 16 nittos and 255 50 16 BFG DR's, I'm not sure the extra expense is really worth it to go with 15's. I can tell you that with 275 50 15 BFG DR's will dead hook most cars if you get the setup and burnout dance right.

A bigger tire that dead hooks off the line is not necessarily going to be faster. Bigger tires hurt you up top since they usually have more rolling restistance. A great example of this is my stock L98 car, which has run a best of 1.87 on the bfg's, dead hooking and 1.86 with 245 60 16, 16y/o eagle ZRs with me having to "drive it" to keep from spinning off the line and on the 1-2 shift (these tires are soo hard that they're scary to drive on the street, it looks and feels like you're screwing around trying to kick the back end out all the time). It ran almost 3mph faster on the ZR's.

My '97 WS6 with a M6 and 3.42's just ran out of gear before the lights. I found that I ran faster bouncing off the rev limiter for the last 100' or so then I did if I shifted. When I swapped to 4.10's it ran almost exactly the same speed as it did going through the lights on the limiter with the 3.42's but was much easier to launch and control (basically it made it easier to drive. Also made 6th gear somewhat useful on the street, where before it was worthless unless you were cruising at over 100mph). Really, I don't know that I think that gears are that great a performance improvement. In general the only way that you're going to see a big gain is if your car is WAY undergeared or if it's geared so that you have to shift into a new gear just before you cross the line. They do make the car more fun to drive though

fb305svs

Yeah, that really is the biggest problem, is with the 342's, i have to shift right before the traps... there is no holding it, ive tried... (no rev limiter either lol)

The biggest reason i want to go with telstars in the first place is so i can run a smaller tire up front too. I have to buy a new set of radials anyways, i feel that i mgh tbe able to see some improvements with the bigger tires (the diamter is the same tho- still 26" tire)

the width is also not that much larger either, it would just give me more sidewall more than anything else.

The gears are a definate- i will finally be in forth gear sooner ont he track letting me ride to the line without shifting. i can get up to a 120mph trap before i need to run a taller tire

MCas7

Ok here are the motor specs:

350 block bored .030 (355)
Stock crank (my only issue with running a lot of nitrous)
Eagle SIR I beam rods (bushed)
Sealed power hyperutectic pistons with a .125 dome
Entire rotating assembly balanced to about 8000 rpm
World sportsman II heads with 72cc chambers and 2.02/1.60 valves with 200cc intake runners (stock porting)
TRW cam with 106 lsa and .510 lift on intake and exhaust
Weiand xcelerator single plane intake (currently)
Edelbrock 750 carb.

OMINOUS_87

Any more cam specs, duration?

MCas7

Sorry, I can't remember the exact numbers but I believe the duration is somewhere around 240 . I have the cam card at home, I will look at it and post it later.

MCas7

Ok, here is the cam card...

OMINOUS_87

Well, I think thats an awfull lot of cam for a car that will see mostly street time, bit of a mismatch.

Single plain will probably produce the most usable power in the cams range, 2500rpm stall seems to be a bit on the small side for a cam of that size, big duration.

fb305svs

yeah thats a big cam lol... im not sure i would even consider a single plane, even with a dual plane i doubt you will pick up ebough bottom end to make it worth the loss on the top end...

MCas7

I had a feeling you guys were going to say that. That cam is quite large and lumpy. It sounds awesome, but I'm starting to realize that it might not have been the best choice for my motor. What do you guys suggest I do, a different cam or different converter? If you think i should get a different cam, which one?
thanks for the input.

OMINOUS_87

Matching a well balanced combo will be easier with a cam swap.

It cant be to fun driving around a cam that big in a street car.

MCas7

Well I'm not going to say it isn't fun. You definatley get a lot of looks from people (not that I'm out for looks), and I have a vaccum canister so the brakes are ok. It just seems to lag a little bit when I stomp on it. What do you suggest for a cam?

OMINOUS_87

Sure its fun cause it aint stock

However the cam is to large for my taste, however everyone has their range of tolerance.

I personally love TQ. I like to keep it under 4500rpm on the street, however i have 385 cubes.

What are you running for gearing? What is your compression?

I am a big fan of the Comp XE cams. They produce TQ curves that are as flat as Kansas. They come on low and hard but give up the ghost after they peak in most cases, so proper selection is crucial.

I would say something around 230* on the intake side with an RPM Air Gap would be a real nice fit for what you got. That would fit your heads and carb real nice.

You would have to get a little creative plumbing in your fogger kit but it wont be a show stopper by any means, no bosses out of the box on the dual plane.

Its easy for everyone to toss their .02 on the table, its all gonna come down to where you want to be with your combo.

MCas7

I am running 3.42 for gears and the compression is right around 9.5-10. I'm not sure exactly what it is, but I know that it is right around there.

I like the feeling of torque too, but I just want the best cam for my car. I want it to run somewhere in the 12's on the motor and 11's or possibly high 10's on nitrous.

The RPM Air Gap has nitrous bosses in it, so that would work. I have a plate cheater right now (not hooked up yet), so I will keep my single plane until I plumb the fogger.

thanks for the .02

unknown_host

iTrader: (1)

Ditch the 2500 rpm stall if you plan to keep that camshaft. I really dont like that must advertised duration with that little @.050. Hell, the XE284 is right around the same @.050 and lift figures (granted its a dual pattern camshaft) and it has 284/296 total advertised, thats 25* less advertised with the same @.050 specs.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

For the most part, I agree with OMINOUS_87's recommendations, except for that I would go a little smaller with the cam. Something with a 230 @.050" on the intake will want a converter with a 3600rpm or so stall and more gear. If you're at least willing to also get a higher stall converter then that's the way to go (again, with the air gap manifold…)

Otherwise, look for something in the 210-220* range on the intake, you'll be happier with that. Something like the comp nitrous extreme 218/230/114 cam will get you into the 12's na and 10's on the spray, assuming the rest of the setup matches (there are a couple of people locally running those kinds of times with that cam). Even with something that small the car will still be happier with a stall around 3000-3200 (of course, I'm talking about actual stall, for example, my data logs are showing that the stock converter in my '87 Formula 350 is stalling at around 2300rpm).

OMINOUS_87

Doh Stupid me!

How could I have forgotten!

I have a buddy with a Nitrous HP Cam for sale.

224/236 .477/.490 113LSA Flat tappet, thats what your runnning right?

Dont be startled by the 12* duration spread, your heads have a fairly weak exhaust port out of the box and with that N2O shot your gonna need it

http://www.compcams.com/Technical/Se...umber=12-560-4

This cam pulled hard NA all the way up to 6000rpm

I think it might be just about perfect for where you want to be.

With this cam I dont think that a gear change is needed. The 3.42s will keep the motor from spinning outside the usable power band as you blow a big N20 shot down the motor. By 5500RPM you should be digging into 120+ MPH and hitting the traps right around peak power.

Again just my .02.
The other fellas have raised questions about your shallow stall speed, this might also be an area that you look at in the future on your quest for total optimization.

MCas7

Well I called Comp cams today and asked them what they reccomended and they asked me a couple questions about the motor and tranny and stuff. They didn't ask me if it was carburetored or F.I., or if I was running nitrous or not, which I thought was a little strange. But anyways, the guy reccomended the 12-246-3 cam which is smaller than what I have, but big enough to still keep me (and my motor) happy. I have thought about looking into one of those nitrous cams, I just haven't gotten that deep into it yet.
As far as my converter, I plan on keeping it the way it is for the time being, I'm not really sure what the "actual" stall is. I"m sure it is more than 2500. If something happens to this setup such as failure in one of the components, and I have to take it apart, then I will go up on the converter. (after i hit the lottery )

unknown_host

iTrader: (1)

The XE274 is an awesome cam, but put no faith in comp's phone camshaft recomendations in the future. They recommended me the magnum 292 when I was looking at camshafts for my vortec headed 350

MCas7

wow, that sounds like a pretty big mismatch. I hope didn't take their reccomendation. You might as well stick a solid hunk of metal in there.

OMINOUS_87

Comps phone help blows most of the time.

Alot of people tell stories of calling several differnet times and getting a different recomendation each time!!!

However the XE274 is a killer cam that many folks have had great NA performance with.

N2O however puts a new variable into the equation, for your setup I think a Nitrous HP cam would better match your needs.

Oh by the way, what you running for exhaust?

MCas7

The current exhaust setup is Hooker SC Long tubes with 1-3/4" primaries, into a 3" to 3" y-pipe (custom made) into a 3" over axle pipe into a Dynomax ultra flow 3" center in, 3" center out muffler and then just a single tail pipe on the driver's side. I have some pictures of it on my website if you want to check it out.

OMINOUS_87

Perfect for some N2O!!!

MCas7

Yup!!, I can't wait to hook it all up and take it for a blast. I will have it video taped and post it here as soon as I can.

You should hear it idle now, it will be a shame when I tear that cam out of there. I wish I could get sound bite up here.

stevedave454

how were you pulling those times on stock suspension and radials?? my 93 z with m6 and 3.23 gears and mine was completely stock (to the best of my knowledge) on the street i could just kinda be cruising at 2500-2800 RPMs in 1st gear, punch the gas and break em loose for about 5-10 ft, that was on 245/40/16 bfg comp TA's, and at the track i was pulling 2.2-2.3's, as were all my friends with stock suspension/radials in Z28's mustangs, whatever... im sure if i knew how to drive better i could have had a better 60' time, but it was my first time at the track ever, and i was 16... also burnout or no burnout on the radials i had about the same 60'

my friend with his old nova, with a 427 BBC and 250 shot nitrous, is running D.O.T. slicks (i believe 28/11.5/15's), and he has em screwed to the rims (or beadlocks, whatever) he pulls a 1.55 60' pulling the front tires about a foot off the ground, and even though he still spins a little on the nitrous he has torn the beads cause the tires grab so hard.. but still pulls 1.55-1.57

my friends basically stock typhoon (AWD) runs a 1.8 60' on radials, and those things have nothing but bottem end so coming off the line is its strong point

B4Ctom1

My car has got a cam like that, retrofit hyd roller in a 412 cid (406), with big head intake and all and Im not terribly happy with it.

Find something in the 220's intake and the low 230's exhaust...