MrDude_1

how much power can a stock 1st Gen DSM intercooler support? what about a 2ndgen DSM one?


where should i be looking for cheap intercoolers?

what i want is a small air to water intercooler.... i know i can modify a air to air one so that its air to water... but im having a problem looking for a cheap core...

my thoughts were, if i find a OEM one, it would be cheaper then getting a aftermarket one...

what trucks should i be looking at?

MrDude_1

also, i have this wierd idea..

rather then have the air go thru a intercooler, what about it going over it?

like if you took a radiator, and placed it under the intake.

very similar to what the stock Ford M112 intercoolers look like...


but rather then spending $$ on a "intercooler" what if i fabbed part of a alum radiator in there?


is there anything wrong with using part of a alum radiator as a air to water intercooler?
how would i calculate pressure drop?
how can i tell how efficent it will be?


hehe, i have lots to learn..

CrazyHawaiian

You can try searching for flow numbers (cfm) of the older OEM turbo cars with intercoolers. Then use that info and match it up to your application. For example, if you found an older OEM intercooler that flowed 300 cfm (take a Volvo 740i IC for example), and your engine was pushing 600 cfm, then use two of them for your car. The best OEM IC's I've seen came off the 86/87 Buick Grand Nationals and T-Types. Mainly because those motors had more displacement than many other OEM turbo cars (mostly they are 4 bangers). I just happened to pick one up for another project (85 Mustang SVO) for $75 the other week. That IC can support the SVO motor with a T3/T4 hybrid @ 22psi (stock IC was only big enough for a T3 @ 22psi). Typhoon/Syclone intercoolers were good too. Check junkyards or the 'For Sale' sections of popular messageboards dedicated to those model cars.

Your idea about having the air flow over the IC instead of into it is a good idea. This is what I plan to do when I intercool my 91Z. The term for this type of setup is a V-Mount intercooler. The radiator and intercooler mount in a V configuration. The IC can either be located below the radiator, or above it in the engine bay (not a top mount though, different design). When flow to the radiator is very very important (its a BIG deal for our cars) this type of setup can be a life saver. But there are also negatives. Because the air does not directly hit the fins of the intercooler, you can experience heak soak faster than an upright configuration. But since these are street cars and not track cars I dont think it really matters.

MrDude_1

is there a list somewhere of the CFM? because im looking on MSG boards dedicated to all the boosted cars i can find, and i havent come across any....
and thats a good idea to look in their local board for sale section.. but i dont know what car im looking for yet.... ahh.... once i get some more info, im sure it will all fall together though


umm, im talking about having it in/over the manifold, like directly below the blower discharge. and the water goes thru it....
pic is below

the radiator for the system will be in front of the car ofcourse...


are we on the same page or are you refering to somthing diffrent?

85TransAm406

iTrader: (1)

MrDude: the intercooler setup you are talking about is the same setup used my magnacharger on their radix setups, they use and external coolant pump and tank to cool it, so a similar setup should work just as well (and they use eaton blowers).

MrDude_1

cool... i was pretty sure the idea was sound, but i wanted someone to confirm it..

now heres the big question... how big should it be? how thick?

i want it to be efficent.... esp since if i do this method, i'll probly need a 2" cowl hood....

my basic idea is this..... nice alum radiator up front, a big tank where the current windshield washer bottle is... probly have it take a lil bit of that space infront of the wheel well too...have a pump run coolent to the intercooler... and the intercooler is directly under the charger....

another good thing... at the track, i can fill my tank partway with ICE.... hehehehehe



im trying my best to find the best solution to suit the car, and everything, but this is the first time ive seriously looked into boost... ive always assumed it was too pricey for me to get into...
if you have any other ideas, PLEASE share.

CrazyHawaiian

Sorry I misunderstood what you were saying about the air flow idea. I'm talking about something different that does not apply, but if you wanna take a look here is a pic. Sorry about that. Lates

BADASS91B4C

A nice stock intercooler would be one off a Starion they came stock with fairly large front mounts that i hear can handle some seriuos boost.......... hope this helps

stevedave454

as far as i know what your talking about is the same setup that they have stock, and it seems to work pretty good, they make upgrades intercoolers that mount like that too, but i think they are pretty pricey ($1500-2000) so if you think you can fab one i say go for it, but another good place too look for oem air to water IC's would be sy/ty's like mentioned above, but i think stock ones might be too small, my friend has a ty and on hot summer days it can be as much as .5 seconds slower than on a cool fall evening, and his car is basically bone stock, but getting a bigger heat exchanger, and a tank you can throw ice in should help a lot! so if your interested in one of those i would check sy/ty mess boards and check the classifieds, im sure it'd be cheaper than ebay

MrDude_1

cool.. heres my lil PC drawing... i have it worked out a lil better on paper, but im not the best artist...

MrDude_1

btw, the blue is just the adapter..... the bottom brown/red part is the intercooler..

its probly going to be a 2.5-3" alum core...

D M N

it would probably be easier if you have a carbed car, if this is an all out dragster?. If so why dont you just use Nitrious Oxide or methonol to cool the engine?

MrDude_1

daily driver.

cant run fuel in the M112.



this is like Nitrous but better.... its a mild DD motor until you floor it.. then the bypass closes and you go.... bottle never runs out either.







im just wondering why im getting all the oppisition on why this sucks, meanwhile rooster sticks one on a LT1 and everyone thinks its great... SATURN5 sticks 2 SMALLER blowers on his car and everyone thinks its better then sex, and im just doing what rooster did, only intercooled and im getting all this "bah, do a turbo, bah nitrous is easier.. ect..."

D M N

You misunderstood me i didnt say not to add a blower, i said you could use Nitrous oxide or methonal (alchohol injection) to cool the air and not use a intercooler at all.

MrDude_1

i got ya...

that wasnt really directed at you, im just frustrated with it today.... sorry if you thought i was b!tchin at ya..


im talking about this on 5 msg boards, and so far, 90% of the replies have been less then useful..... most are just "oh use a turbo" or whatever.
and ofcourse on any mixed SBC gen board ( SBC,LT1,LS1) they all bitch about ohh, just put a 6-71 on it... or the SBC is inferior, swap a Lx1 in there....


first subject where ive searched for days on info and gotten no help at all.

MrDude_1

oh, and i was considering water injection (more effective then methonal ) but i would rather have a air to water intercooler if it fits and is still effective..... if my intercooler doesnt work, im going to just plop water injection on it and be done with it.....


who am i kiddin? im already thinkin about porting the blower out and other 2nd stage mods... lol.

D M N

i have seen what your talking about, but i dont think the benefits justifies the expense.

MrDude_1

with the exception of the pump, i think the intercooler setup will total around $50... i have most of the pieces already.

the only PITA thing is im MIG welding alum... i'll probly grind down the welds and have it powdercoated..


stuff is cheap when you're doin it yourself..


im just hoping to see a benifit.... im spending alot of time making this stupid intercooler, it would be nice to confirm that its going to work before i finish it..... :lala:



im thinking about getting this $15 dual digital temp gauge from radio shack..... neat lil thingy.. i have a eye on using it to see the diff in air temp above and below the intercooler.... *shrug*
but at that point id be stuck with what i have...

ah well... if you find any info on the subject, please post up the link...

D M N

then more power to you, keep everyone posted on your progress

J's86ROC

Here's a pic of what you're thinking of. It's for the L67 3800 supercharged motor. Different sites have them, but they are all about the same setup.


3800 intercooler

85TransAm406 Your avatar rocks!!!

MrDude_1

exact same thing... but how thick is that core? i need to find that out.

J's86ROC

Email Zooomer@aol.com. Tell him you looked at the intercooler on ZZperformance.com and you want to make an intercooler like that for a different engine/blower setup and you were just wondering if he could tell you how thick the core is and if there's any other info he could give you. Maybe he could even get you in touch with the folks who made that one. He really knows his superchargers and 3800's. Don't know if he's done anything with V8's.

Grumpy

Intercooling is a science.
It's nothing you'll get a complete answer to in one thread.

Air to Air Intercoolers need to be really huge to actually get past just thermally flywheeling the heat. Looking at the GN neighbor hood will show what it takes to be much good.

I've taken to using fuel, and soon water for my charge cooling, and I've spend a fair amount of time running MAT temps to see what really works.

With using fuel for cooling, and some somewhat clever manifold work, I've come close to the same MATs as I ran with an Intercooler.

For me an I/C isn't a option, the good ones are just too expensive, for my budget. Fuel is something you have to carry anyway, and there is only a very small weight penalty. That and I do upon ocassion run long enough fast enough to deat saturate any under hood I/C.

When you limit the surface area of the I/C such as in your manifold I/C design you have to have chilled water for it to be really effective, IMO. And chilled means using Ice so as to be able to really drop the MAT.

Corky Bell means some valid points, yet bungles a few, IMO, but will get you thinking about what to do in his book Max Boost, and Hugh McInnes's Turbo charging book is worth a read, as well as goggling for NACA, and in cylinder cooling.
HTH

stevedave454

i just thought i should mention that the thickness of the 3800 IC's are very limited due to hood space, i researched them awhile ago, and one company that sold them said that after installation the plastic engine cover would not fit and they had like 1/8 inch of hood clearance, and i think the IC's were just over 1" thick

Friday128

there is a bulk buy going on on one of the DSM boards and if someone wants the link i can post it up here
but its like a 22x9x3 intercooler and one other size for about 200 bucks (these usually cots over 400)
so if you want th the link thee hings arecheap righ now
jsut sign up on the message board say you want to take partin the blk buy and pay and you got yourself an intercooler

MrDude_1

thanks... its air to air im assuming? or is there a air to water on on the board? link?

Wezzeles

A stock 2nd gen dsm interecooler can really only support to about 250 hp, the heat soak pretty quickly, 1g isn't much better. I nice option is a supra on. Or if your are handy with a tig, u can cut off the end tanks and weld a couple of them together. Personnaly with something like a big v8 turbocharged power plant, I smaller water cooled/ ice cooled would be better but this is only for a track car. I'd say try water injection for a street car, maybe a small intercooler, keep the comp high, and boost low. you'd be making more then enough for street car. But if u go ***** to the wall high boost race motor, only real option is huge fabrication of a $$ big *** air cooled intercooler, or a smaller ice cooled one.

MrDude_1

its going to be a decient compression low boost motor...

athough id like to swap pulleys and run ice water at the track..

most of the time, its driven on the street, and for that, a basic water cooled setup should work for me....

as of right now, my idea is to get a griffen or be cool alum radiator, cut it to get the max amount of area i can fit on top of the motor, and run the water thru it... the boost is blown over it..

i keep bidding on broken/repaired ones, but everyone is going over my max bid so far (tryin to keep it cheap...)