C h r i s

*Update 6/27/06* 90% street driven '80 El Camino with functional A/C (soon) and a 406 with these specifications: Wheeler 4130 3.75” stroke crank, Scat 4340 6” rods, JE 28cc dish blower pistons (~8.3 to 1), AFR 195 heads, Bullet solid roller cam (.555" lift, 238 at .050 duration, 114 LSA). Desktop Dyno estimates peak hp at 419 at 5000rpm and tq at 476 at 3500rpm.

The calculation I've done here (my inputs are inserted with this url) show that I'll be on the top efficiency island on a T7x at 5500rpm/12psi (although I'm not sure my VE number is right, Desktop Dyno estimates 80%+ VE).

Photos:


I've found a Garrett T72 with an .96 on center turbine (on center due to the available space) that might be the right choice. What are your thoughts?

Thanks!
Chris

Original post from '03 (!):

I'm building a single turbo 406, and have these parts:
• 400 block, fully machined with 4.155 bore
• Wiseco forged pistons, 1.120 compression height (6" rod) milled with valve pockets for a twisted wedge head (will be milled further to get ~30cc dish for 8.5 to 1 compression) (used the JE pistons instead)
• Comp Cams 268AR solid roller .525 lift, 224 @ .50 custom ground on a 112 lsa (couldn't use - needed small base circle cam)
• Holley single plane EFI, 36 & 42lb. injectors (will be using MegaSquirt; work log here)
• Computer controlled distributor
• 4 different cast turbo manifolds (thanks Doug, aka 92Z!) - I plan to use the one that best fits the engine crossmember

I still need to buy:
• Crank, 6" rods
• TFS G2 heads (great exhaust flow, pistons are already clearanced for these, relatively inexpensive)
• Carb style bonnet, intake & exhaust piping
• Intercooler?
• Turbo

The goal is a very streetable 500 hp (I know 500hp can be done easliy NA) at ~10psi. My calculations have a T04B 60-1 or a 62-1 compressor being efficient at this airflow/min (around 50). I was thinking a .96 turbine to start.

FSTFBDY

iTrader: (33)

Almost sounds like what I have planed.

Im in the middle of building a 415(30 over 3.8 stroke)
eagle fordged crank/rods

I have 2 t3's 60/63 that im using.

If I was to do a single Turbo Id look into something like a PT76 or a PT88. but thats just me. I desided on twins cuz it may just because I ound these turbos fairlly cheap and they should do fine for the application Im looking for.

unknown_host

iTrader: (1)

That is an extremely tame camshaft.

stevedave454

id recomend a t-70 to t-88 turbo

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

Huh… my thoughts…

500hp out of a 406??? At 10psi???

Lets assume 500hp at the wheels, or about 600hp at the crank. Non intercooled, 10psi works out to be about a 1.4:1 density ratio, about 1.6 intercooled…, lets assume 1.5:1, meaning that you're building a 406ci engine that is capable of making about 330hp NA, at the crank, and select your parts accordingly.

At 100% VE a 406 should be making about 350hp at 4000rpm (giving you some room for losses). To get this thing to have an HP peak there you're looking at a torque peak around 1500-1800rpm or so. In that case the cam is OK, if not a little big, and the heads are excessive (you need about 170-180cfm port flow on the intake by about .050" short of the peak lift of the cam you're using, that's stock head territory). If you're going to go this far you might as well size the turbo to give you full boost early… 10psi at 1500rpm would make anyone a believer in torque… (should be something like >700lb-ft), maybe something like a T04 of some diesel farm equipment. The turbos off of most diesel pickups may be a little on the large side but will work if you can find them with the right turbine side. Some of the smaller GN upgrade turbos would be fine also. I suppose you could use something like a 60-1 or hifi if you wanted to, but I'd be looking at a smaller turbine side...

Sounds kinda crazy unless you're building a truck (I've considered something like that for my truck but starting with a much cheaper 305 or 350 and shooting for about 400hp at the wheels…)

B4Ctom1

would that be rear wheel or flywheel?

parts parts parts!

Crank in 5140

Crank in 4340

6" H-beam rods

G2 Twisted wedge

The baddest bonnets I have ever seen!

Intake piping

exhaust piping

intercoolers from junkyards (there is a better page I couldnt remember where it is

Turbos

Guido

I think a 60 hifi would work out great in this situation. Its not overly large for what he wants and should peak in its efficiency range for the airflow he needs.

Plus it isnt LARGE and making plumbing a PITA.

Good luck

B4Ctom1

I was thinking about just that turbo, but I dont know enough to make that kind of suggestion.

P.S. if you look at the link I left for turbos on the home page at Precision they are having a kick azz sale on three intercoolers

C h r i s

Wow great information! I really appreciate it. The rest of the story is: yes, this is going into a truck... and a car... it's an '80 El Camino. The #1 goal is reliable horsepower. I do like the idea of the boost around 1500 rpm - zero lag. I suppose I'll need to look into waste gates and blow-off valves. Maybe I should look at a .8x turbine?

The transmission is a 4+1 manual.

I've found out Hifi means: "Available with either the standard (4” inlet, 2.5” discharge) compressor housing or the 60-1 Hi-Fi (2 3/4” inlet, 2” discharge) compressor housing, the 60-1 will outflow any standard T04B with ease! (The 60-1 Hi-Fi will deliver approximately 90-95% of the flow capacity of the standard 60-1.)"

Thanks B4Ctom1 for the excellent parts sources - those are great!

Chris

Guido

a .96 AR is best for what you are running. You might run it out of its efficiency range with a smaller turbine side and such a large amount of ci. That is my opinion though.

Someone else can chime in and give their opinion.

Good luck. El Caminos are cool! My dad has a 79 with an LT1 from a 93 Z28 swapped into it.

B4Ctom1

I want a convertable station wagon too.

damn carcraft! made all the A/G bodies prices get out of whack

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

Everything after the initial 600rwhp was flywheel

My $.02: EVERYONE is guessing on the turbine size. That depends a lot more on how you package everything else then the actual size. Assuming nice plumbing (worry more about retaining heat then velocity/flow) and I'd bet that a tang. .96 will work well… when things start going away from optimal, on center housings… then you'll need something in the .8x (what is it, a .86? I can't remember right now) range. If this is a street car and you're really not concerned about top end then I'd err on the side of too small before too big…

pretty much… my point was that you don't need the flow a 60-1 will give you and you can often pick up hifi's for cheap from people upgrading…

I figured that you were either crazy or building a truck…

SATURN5

Hehe....

Here Tom.. www.maliburacing.com

Best G-body site this side of the GN world.

BW

PETE

iTrader: (1)

A .63 housing will most likely send the stickiest of rubber up in a plume of smoke, especially on such a small compressor. Building such a large displacement motor gives an advantage providing just as 83 said that you can keep the velocity high enough and hot enough to spool up the turbo.

Me personally I'd go with something like a 63 or 66 with a tang. turbine housing around .82. Even if you go with a large housing such as a .96 with such a small compressor(60-1 hi-fi) you'll come in hard and have to bleed off excess boost(wasting available energy). Remember energy is a constant it only changes state.

Boost is addicting and I would say go to a larger comp. wheel so you can grow a little later.

Just my .02

Then again what the hell do I know I tried to spool a stage IV Turbonetics in an .82 housing with a stock D5 converter. Managed to get it to run 114mph by tweaking the fuel, but couldn't get the boost to hit any earlier until i hit the 60' mark,.

Started with a 14 sec. pig down to 12.7 before the cylinder let go from previous abuse. Live and learn

B4Ctom1

so you meant 350hp at 100% VE more than the 600 hp?

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

If you're talking about this quote:

Then that is 350hp at the crank at 4K rpm na befor you start adding boost...

askulte

Honestly, if you're just going for 500 crank HP, you can have the most rigged junkyard turbo setup, and still get the HP. It's nice to optimize everything, but if you're building it for max torque at 1500 rpms, your cylinder pressure will be through the roof, and you'll need to run very retarded timing. It's fun to build the best virtual engine, and discuss it here, but just about anything will get ya to your goals

C h r i s

Deals can still be found. The 'Camino (with a knocking 229) was $800, the 400 block: $60, forged pistons: $200, cam: $75... but I am in an ideal situation: I work in a performance parts warehouse.

I agree, and reading MacInnes book he suggests turbine size is a trial and error process - I don't mind buying a couple different turbines.

More good info. The Commander 950 allows you to program any timing you want at any rpm/load. Looks like this feature will come in handy. I'm also planning to wait until January when the 950 software is updated for WB capability.

Chris

Guido

One thing some people are missing here is that he is using a 400 block. Id wager to say its a factory casting since he hasnt indicated other wise. Anything exceeding 650hp/tq is going to put that block on borrowed time.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

Or just run appropriate compression and cam timing for what you plan on doing.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

I'm not sure I'd buy that, Guido… I don't believe that a 2 bolt main 400 (or a converted aftermarket 4 bolt main) would have any reason to be significantly more torque limited then a 350. If he intended to spin it to any real RPM then I'd agree, but this promises to be a low rpm setup without the normal strains of trying to spin a 400 up to 6K or more…

B4Ctom1

Ha I was just checking some out

we got a few here in town for sale they range from 3000 to 5000 bucks (are they high or what!!!)

we have some pretty nice ones in town too, I think that has alot to do with it. There just arent alot of them around here.

FSTFBDY

iTrader: (33)

Id agree that a factory 2bolt. converted to splaid mains will be fine. maybe do a 1/2 block fill or even a Tall fill.

stevedave454

i have a question about the 400 block...
i have always heard that basically in order of weakest to strongest it goes 2 bolt, 4 bolt, 4bolt splayed
but i have been hearing things about the 400 4bolt sucking, is this true and why? i understand that conv a 2 bolt to 4bolt splayed will still be the strongest, but between a 2 bolt, and a regular 4 bolt what is better?

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

because of the differences in the block castings to accomodate the longer stroke, larger bore and larger mains the 4 bolt 400 blocks have a tendancy to crack around the main webbing, even in normal street use.

B4Ctom1

I think I will have to find out the hard way about those 400's

Im getting whatever boost my P1sc will put out at 58K to 60K rpm and putting it through that short stroke destroked 400 of mine. Its got splayed caps and a 1/4 fill we will see and learn together I guess ...

FSTFBDY

iTrader: (33)

The New Hot rod just built a 408 Stock block with a TALL FILL and it pumped out 658HPish. I just picke dit up 2day..

C h r i s

I've bought the heads. I ended up getting new 23 degree TFS with 195 intake ports off eBay. At least I shouldn't have to worry about valvetrain geometry issues.

I don't have the heads in my hands yet but I'm pretty sure they have 1.25" springs for a hydraulic cam. To upgrade springs, get solid roller lifters, etc. I'm looking at ~$400.

My stepfather can use the solid roller (ground on a 112 lsa) and I could go with a turbo specific hydraulic flat tappet cam like one of Comps new turbo cams.

What does everyone think?

Thanks!
Chris

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

It's hard to compare anything to the comp cams cams since they apparently haven't finalized the numbers for them. They've had a few turbo grinds in their catalog for years, but I would only be guessing if the new ones would be similar.

WRT to the SR… if it was custom ground to 112 or more LSA (I'd go for 112, I think that most would push for 114-115) I think it would make a excellent cam for a mild setup, pretty close to what I would choose.

C h r i s

I let my stepfather buy the 23 degree TFS heads from me to use on his 383 going in a '34 F@rd kit car.

So I'm shopping for heads again. I have some Vortecs being machined... but I think I'm going to sell them because I really like the weight savings of aluminum (and my EFI intake is non-Vortec). I do think the Vortecs would work fine for what I'm trying to accomplish (only 500hp).

I really liked the idea of the Twisted Wedge TFS heads - but all I've seen for sale are the 64cc G1s (identified by the stepped guideplates). I havent located any 67cc G2s (flat guideplates), they must not have produced as many G2s.

I can probably get another set of 23 degree TFS for ~$800. Compression would be 8.8 to 1. Dyno2000 guesses 540hp at 5000rpm and 652tq at 4000rpm.

I'd really love to get 74cc AFR 195s ($1200+). This would lower compression to 8.14. Dyno2000 guesses 555hp at 5000 rpm (and 5500rpm) and 642tq at 4000rpm.

The question: Is the compression drop with AFRs worth the extra $? The horsepower and torque differences aren't significant in my opinion.

Thanks!
Chris

B4Ctom1

check out these turbos for sale

http://www.proturbokits.com/usedparts.htm

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

AFRs are almost always worth it from an airflow and chamber design perspective, that is assuming that you have the money for them, getting a more appropriate compression is just an added bonus.

How much boost/what gas are you hoping to run? 8:1, good chamber design and aluminum heads add up to a lot of detonation resistance (read BIG BOOST). If you're not planning on running a lot of boost then I don't really see the point.

C h r i s

I think I've decided to wait until my budget can handle the AFRs. Since they come with 1.470 springs (vs. 1.250) I won't have to spend as much to upgrade to solid roller springs.

I don't plan to run more than 10 pounds of boost, but I'd like to leave that option open. Maybe turn up the boost at the track and run race gas? On the street I'd like to use 91 octane premium unleaded.

B4Ctom1: thank for the link - wouldn't a 55 a/r compressor be small for my application?

Thanks,
Chris

B4Ctom1

no its not, you just need to find another one...

C h r i s

4130 crank purchased, CNC'd blocks of aluminum have arrived...



Looking for a 60-1 with a .96 T4 exhaust turbine (unless I find a bigger one for a good price, but no more than a 66).

If the custom Wiseco pistons don't have enough material to be milled I've found a forged Keith Black piston that will work. Yes Keith Black now has forged pistons - reasonably priced too.

Chris

FSTFBDY

iTrader: (33)

Nice... cant wait to see more of this build up.

I ended up selling my 2 small turbos and getting one Big one a Holset HX55

B4Ctom1

how big are those HX55? what kind of HP can they make? will you mount it on a BBS single header?

Zach_x

Anyone wanna test all this.. Blow a few pistons through oil pans and then make a kit and sell it to me... I'm kinda on the shy side when it comes to pushing 500rwhp through my mostly stock L98 (pushing PLENTY of power(350+305 heads ported to 350 airflow specs=High compression SBC) and my slightly beefy T-5

FSTFBDY

iTrader: (33)

Its BIG.


No not on a BBS header. Ive came to the comclustion for what He wants for a Single Header($575) I will build my own.

His Kits are nice but I just dont see spending the $$ when I have everything to make it myself.

as far as HP goes I dono. this is the Only Chart i can find on HX Info. Im guessing around 700ish. + or - a few. Then again someone was sayin around 800-1000. So i dono.


The guy I bought it from said It woul dbe a great match for the 418sb Im building. Should spool in the 3000range and If I wanted it to spool sooner if I dont like it he will change the ech. housing for me. They had one on a 454BB and pulled 750+ rwhp and 800+ft lbs and it started to spool up in the 2200range

B4Ctom1

it looks to be in the 60-70 mm range I wonder if hx55 = 55mm, wow

TurboedTPI

Hey chris, go with at least a 60-1 with a .82 turbine housing. have a 62-1 with a 1.00 turbine housing, and i have no trouble with lag or getting boost. I actually had to drill holes in my tubing to the throttle body cause boost was still too high after the wastegate opened all the way. Those are my thoughts on this.

FSTFBDY

iTrader: (33)

http://turbotech.com.au/holset4.htm
http://www.proturbo.fi/turbot/turbos_en.htm
belive this one is 72/77 they also have a 67/77 hence why he said if it doesnt spool like I want we can goto the smaller exh side housing

Dimensions HX55
Length mm 259
Width mm 275
Height mm 225
Smallest Mass kg 18
Largest Mass kg 21
Airflow kg/s 0.75

C h r i s

Rise from the dead! RISE! (Updated first post.)

B4Ctom1

If you lose the AC box for a smaller standard heater box would that give you more downpipe space?

fried

what exhaust manifolds are these?

C h r i s

The only smaller box I know of is the non-A/C box. I need to keep the A/C... it gets warm here in the deep south. There is about 4" from the flange, so a 3" bend should fit (but I'll definitely need to insulate the A/C box).

The top one is a Martin manifold, the second is a Spearco (according to posts on the Turbo Mustangs board) and the bottom is an Accel. None are available currently (try fleaBay or classifieds).

I bought the Garrett T72. Now to see if it will fit.

Chris

B4Ctom1

hey chris you misht have seen my "watch out for ssautochrome/turboZY products" post, but there is a cool affordable turbo company which actually can be found alot of on the turbo mustang websites. The master power turbo of Brazil.

Master Power this is thier company website you have to pick gasoline performance to see them, but its better to just go here:

Master Power Turbos which shows some of the larger units for sale

Master Power units has a much more detailed specification listing, and even this site is missing some of thier new badass huge turbos.

They have been making turbos for about 20 years in the small south america and latin market, but now they are available in the US and people are using them with great quality and success.

This mustang and tons of others are using them in single and twin applications:

turbo coupe - Google Video