FbodTrek

Ok, Air in Earths' atmosphere is 20% oxygen, right? Nitrogen makes up about 78%, the rest are "other" gases. I am curious as to whether or not anyone has ever run "enriched" air injection before? Compress some air to about 60lbs or so, add pure oxygen, and up the mixture to about 40% O2... heck, if you set the mixture about 3:14 you could still maintain an idle (a stinky one) Open up a valve in the cab, run on enriched atmosphere for more power.... I know what your thinkin though- Why not use n2o- My reason is I'm cheap and curious! LOL The way I see it, N2o kits run about 500 bux... I could rig up an air system for the cost of a valve solenoid, a regular pressure regulator, a little gauge for line/bottle pressure, and whatever type of tank I could scrounge up. Fill the take with compressed air-and bring it up to a defined pressure with an o2 tank (I'd have to read up on gas theory or whatever). Since you wouldn't be working with high pressures (N20), and you wouldn't have to install extra fuel delivery systems (although you could if you wanted to...), It would be easier and ALOT cheaper than a N20 setup. Anyhow, shoot me some feedback, let me know if I'm crazy or missing somthin important to debunk the theory.

GofasterFirebird

iTrader: (3)

hmmm, interesting, but I think you will run into a volume issue. As in you will need alot of volume for what you are suggesting because you suggest not compressing the mixture much. that drastically increases the size of the bottle you will need.

enriching the compressed air with oxygen seems like just using n20. I don't see how that would be any cheaper.

also, pretty much anytime you increase the oxygen ratio going in, I would increase the amount of fuel. your method does not somehow violate any a/f laws and thus for any reasonable increases in oxgen content must be followed by an appropriate increase in fuel.

also, i am sure you are familiar with the reasons why people run n20 and not pure oxygen in the first place. something about vigorously accelerated combustion rates.......i refuse to get technical now...

TonyC

iTrader: (1)

You're right on the more oxygen is more power thing, that's the main reason nitrous works (it's 33% O2, imagine 100% O2). Gofaster's right too, you're going to need an *** load of fuel going into there. One thing that helps nitrous to work so well is the fact that it cools the intake charge when the N20 separates into oxygen and nitrogen. I'm not sure if the oxygen would have this effect; I'm pretty sure that the decompression of the gas would cool it significantly, but it wouldn't cool it as much as N20.

Try it and let us know

jon_volk

pure oxygen is very flammable.

n2o gives the same effect but is much more stable and not flammable by itself.

i wouldnt do it just from a saftey standpoint.

im sure its been tried plenty of times and theres reasons why you dont see oxygen setups in summit racing.

FbodTrek

Well, for one thing oxygen is cheaper than n20 (you could pick up a rental bottle for oxy/acetylene)-Once you knew the mixtures ( you wouldn't be using PURE oxygen...that is VERY DAngerous) you could fill your own bottles from that tank. I'm not considering running "open" flow at 80-100psi. I figured if you let the enriched air into the intake air stream (at somewhat of a trickle?) it would be feasible? I'm not ACTULAAY considering it, I just wondered if it was possible...IF it was, it may be an alternative(MAY, but I doubt it)

PhilM

N2O is an oxidizer, and the extra power comes from the fuel added. straight o2 without significant fuel added with it means boom...way too lean. and straight o2 is nowhere near as cool as the n2o charge...again too lean. it is a good idea, but i personally think it isn't worth the time and money. a base NOS cheater kit is under $400 for carbed cars...and fuel injected stuff can be bought reasonable too.

if you go through with it, keep us updated...

GofasterFirebird

iTrader: (3)

how much cheaper is a pound of oxygen than n20? also, oxygen is not flammable. it is needed for combustion but like n20 will not burn.

the reason that people use nitrous oxide instead of pure oxygen is that the nitrogen slows or dampens the speed of burn. supposedly, oxygen injection accelerates the burn rate so much that it can easily damage engine compenents.

89transam

I think your wrong

SATURN5

An example of a oxygen fueled fire...


Apollo 204 launch pad fire that killed Grissom, Chaffe and White in 1967.

BW

GofasterFirebird

iTrader: (3)

no, I am soooo right

A chemist usually takes 'burning' to mean a self-sustaining reaction between two substances, an oxidant and a fuel, in which a lot of heat energy is given out. It is usually said that the fuel 'burns' and that the oxidant 'supports combustion'.

Oxygen takes part in a lot of these reactions, but always as the oxidant, never the fuel. So a chemist would normally say that oxygen supports combustion, but that it does not burn.

sure, increasing the presence or concentration of oxygen can make the fires burn more intense as pointed out earlier, but again, oxygen doesn't burn.

how about this check to see if oxygen burns: take a match and try to light the oxygen in the air on fire. ohhh crap, it doesn't work.

GofasterFirebird

iTrader: (3)

here ya go, nerds!!

http://www.weldingsupply.net/oxygen1.htm

PhilM

so you did the google search too, and then copied it from this page:

http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives...6773.Ch.r.html

well done, i was going to do the same thing. makes you sound very smart. but if everyone thought about it, like you said we can't light the air, and why do we need to put gas in the engine if o2 burned...

anyway i hope this thread dies.

FbodTrek

The thread was just hypothetical....let's not get aggressive... Was just an idle thought. Have a pleasant day.

SATURN5

Wow.. so you can copy and paste.

And to silly to realise that pic is a perfect example of what you said about uncontrolled combustion. The apollo fire was the result of using 100% oxygren under pressure. One simple spark was all that was needed to set off the reaction. NASA returned to a mixed oxygen supply like was used in Gemini.

Fire and Explosion Hazard Data
===========================================================================
Flash Point: NONE
Extinguishing Media: NONE SPECIFIED BY MANUFACTURER.
Special Fire Fighting Proc: OXYGEN IS NONFLAMMABLE, BUT SUPPORTS AND
VIGOROUSLY ACCELERATES COMBUSTION OF FLAMMABLES. TO FIGHT FIRES, SHUT OFF
SOURCES OF OXYGEN AND FIGHT FIRE.
Unusual Fire And Expl Hazrds: OXYGEN SUPPORTS AND VIGOROUSLY ACCELERATES
COMBUSTION OF FLAMMABLES. SOME MATERIALS WHICH ARE NONCOMBUSTIBLE IN AIR
WILL BURN IN THE PRESENCE OF OXYGEN.

Note supports and accelerates combustion. While tecnically it is an oxidzer, it still "fuels" combustion.



BW

B4Ctom1

about once or twice a year someone asks about using pure oxygen for making power. After a long discussion they usually come to the same conclusions.

1) that no amount of metering can prevent the out of control combustion that takes place when O2 is intoroduced. Noooo amount of metering or additional fuel period.

2) Nitrous Oxide contains Nitrogen to help dampen and control combustion to limit it from going into its destructive blow torch state.

GofasterFirebird

iTrader: (3)

i was just pointing out a misconception. i am sure it is one that many more people than what were posting also have. i didn't know copy and pasting was such a big deal.

did you guys know that for every gallon of gas that enters your engine, almost exactly 1 gallon of water leaves through the tailpipe? I actually calculated that. yeah, chemistry rocks, i know.

stevedave454

way back in the day before nitrous was even used in racing, many pro racers tried running oxygen injection... most blew up basically, and i believe it was outlawed, pure oxygen is very, very flamable, and therefor way too dangerous, nitrous (N20) is two parts nitrogen, and one part oxygen, so its about 33% oxygen like stated above, and even with fuel added is basically non flameable... untill it reaches about 500 deg F, at that point it breaks down and seperates, thats when the oxygen is burned... it has the same effect as running pure oxygen (and oxygen enriched air) with the exception that pure oxygen is just way too flameable, and therefor unstable, as for the oxygen enriched air like your talking about it will theoretically work if you used it in a system that works EXACTLY like a nitrous system... i understand the extrememly rich mixture like you said above, but IMO it would be much wiser to just add fuel with the oxy enriched air... like a nos system... also the calculations to get the mixture correctly would take years of trial and error, even with good calculations.

i once played with the idea of basically running and air compressor to put pressurized air into the plenum (but it wouldn't be on all the time like a blower, it would only be used at the track like nitrous) but many problems prevent this... A) the air filter creates basically a 3-4" wide pressure leak, so pressurizing the plenum is almost impossible, and also getting the fuel mixture right while trying to pressurize the plenum... you'd run into the same problem i mentioned above with finding the right tuning, for the correct A/F basically

SATURN5

Yes, I do.. from not only chem class, but also from my automotives classes in college (ASE cert).... and is why your exhaust rots out from the inside.
BW

FbodTrek

THAT'S what I needed to hear. I always wondered if it was TRIED before (and yes, I assumed someone had previously attempted using PURE O2-with explosive results) I was curious as to whether or not it was POSSIBLE- You answered the question respectfully NOT like an over educated child. Thanx dude. Have a nice day

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

It probably could be, but you'd have to find a way to trickle it in and thoroughly mix it with the incoming air. I suspect that you could accomplish it by using a venturi setup in the inlet track and/or runners or possibly individual injectors and a port designed to cause turbulence.

Is it worth exploring? No, N2O is orders of magnitude safer, you inject a much larger volume of it so it's easier to mix/distribute, you can make more power with it then you can build an engine to hold and cheaper (don't know about where you were thinking about getting it but probably the most common place would be a welding supply, and it's definitely more expensive there).

2) Nitrous Oxide contains Nitrogen to help dampen and control combustion to limit it from going into its destructive blow torch state. [/B][/QUOTE]

yes, the N buffers the burn, but it has other advantages over straight O2, like the phase change when it is injected cools the charge and being liquid prior to being injected makes it easier to deliver where you need it. It's "safe" till it hits the combustion chamber, where O2 (does not burn but allows anything that does burn to burn _MUCH_ faster) is pretty much dangerous anyplace, anytime (you can burn most metals and other objects that will not normally sustain a flame in an oxygen rich atmosphere.

The problem with mixing it with compressed air is just that, it's a mixture. There really isn't anything that is going to keep it mixed evenly and I have no idea how you would accurately meter your mixture with anything easily available. To get it to the point that you can use it for more then one shot you'd either have to run A LOT of pressure or a HUGE tank, neither is a good option. The only alternative would be to run a small bottle like a N2O bottle and a compressor and then a separate O2 bottle and build the metering setup into the compressor.

Lastly, You would have to add fuel with the O2. Just injecting O2 will cause the mixture to go fuel lean. An O2 rich mixture that is fuel lean will burn anything flammable that it comes in contact with. Metals are flammable if you get them hot enough or give them enough O2. Burning aluminum is a lot like burning magnesium but hotter. Burning aluminum is used to ignite iron (usually iron oxide).

Lastly, compressed air injection in the inlet tract is somewhat useful if properly applied (aimed). It could be injected into a turbocharger inlet to help it spool faster or through a carburetor to trick it into enriching the mixture

383backinblack

i think the reasons that this doesnt work have pretty much been covered.....

but will people please stop saying that oxygen is flammable.....o2 is not flammable, its an oxidizer, which is totally different

granted when an open flame or spark is introduced to an 02 rich environment it will flare/explode/burn rapidly.

this is because 02 supports combustion, it doesnt cause it.....
flame needs fuel, such as gasoline, wood etc... and a certain amount of latent heat present....and then it will probably smolder....but o2 needs to present for combustion to take place.....and oxidation rapidly accelerates the rate at which the fuel is consumed, but doesnt actually fuel the fire itself


but you cannot have combustion without fuel and 02,

you cant make a flame thrower with 02 the way you can with an aerosol can for example, because oxygen itself is not combustible.

otherwise you wouldnt need a flammable fuel to run an internal combustion engine, just a combustion controlling agent