2laneblacktop

Hey guys, i'm in the market for some new heads. I have been researching alot and I am impressed with the AFR's. I am set on AFR 195 cnc'ed or Dart Pro 1 215. I wanted to here some opinions on guys that have used either one and there success. Even if you haven't used them and heard of others, feel free to voice your opinion. This is a major buy and wanted to make sure I get the right ones.

My combo is a 406, 9.5 or 10 to 1 compression (depending on the heads), AFR has 68cc chambers while Dart has 64cc. I am running comp 230/236 @ .050 cam, victor jr. intake, holley 780 carb, and long tube headers. When thinking about heads, the cam lift and duration will probably be bigger sometime in the future, so I want a head that can be capable of more than what i is going on.

Anybody with an opinion, I would like to here it. I was ready to buy Dart until I researched AFR. Just wanted to get some feedback. Thanks guys.

kfoley

I'd have to say the AFR's, but the 210cc or 220cc ones.

superstreet

Have you checked out Brodix heads?I have fully cnc'd (chambers,intake and exhaust ports) and they flow 312 @ .700".They flow excellent out-of-the-box too.

sleepybu

afr 210 or tfs 215

2laneblacktop

Do you guys like angle or straight plugs? I have always used angle.

So I take it that noone thinks the AFR 195's are capable of handling much more. I know the runners are pretty small but they flow real well, plus they are a couple hundred dollars less than the 210's.

Free Bird

iTrader: (1)

To give you a simple answer, nope. The 195's will work on a 406, but so would a 180cc head. If you going to put in a bigger cam later, than definately buy at least a 220cc. I would also stick w/ a head that uses a 64cc chamber. Shoot for a little higher compression as well. 10.5-11.0:1 would be better and still very streetable.

I'd look into a set of Protopline as well. Right up there w/ them. AFR is a great head, but everything is an extra. Centerbolts, coolant holes for sensors, etc. I didn't like that, and the fact that I would have to swap out the brand new springs and get them machined before I even put them on the car. Brodix, Dart, AFR, and Protopline. Anything else I wouldn't recommend.

2laneblacktop

Yeah, I understand what you are saying. I want to keep compression right around 10 to 1. I like to drive it around town and on short trips on nice days. I went the 11 to 1 maybe a bit more the first time and detenation claimed two pistons on 93 octane gas. So i decided to tame it abit. I didn't have enough cam to bleed the cylinder pressure off. I was running Dart iron eagle 200's for the last year but the took a crap on me. But I have heard all kinds of storys with guys and AFR 195 heads running real great horse power. Plus the smaller runners keep the torque up there.

Also, what do you mean they charge for everything. If I were to buy the 210's for 1400 dollars...are they truely a bolt on part or am I going to have to do some work to make them what they should be? I'm just trying to keep the budget for the heads around 1300. I know I can get the Dart's for that much and I am pretty sure they are a bolt on part.

Free Bird

iTrader: (1)

I'm not sure where you got your price from but make sure you tell the people at AFR exactly what you want and get the total. Keep in mind AFR's are AT LEAST 7 weeks back logged. I'd still be waiting for my heads to show up if I went w/ AFR, instead I fired up my new engine last night.

Not saying that AFR's aren't a great head, just telling you some other things to consider.

onebad82z

iTrader: (7)

Street Motor...AFR 195

Strip Motor...AFR 210

fireturd350

iTrader: (8)

actually the 210 cc AFR are really more like 215cc (2.08 / 1.6 valves)

I bought my basic AFR 210cc RR heads for 1550 total (that's including the shipping)

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

Is this supercharged, turbocharged, na??? What’s your intended power band?

Unless that cam has a really tight LSA it’s going to be pretty tame in a 406… If the rest of your combination is going to match I’d be looking at something in the 200-210cc range. The 195’s will be on the small side, but will work OK, I don’t know that I would use the darts unless you’re planning on cleaning them up a little before installing them but it’s really up to what you intend to get from that engine… hell, if that cam has a 114lsa it would make a nice truck engine and then I’d say use whatever you get the best price on, maybe even some cleaned up iron stockers…

BOTLFED

I'm with Free Bird, I have a set of Pro Topline 220cc heads.. They flowed 289 cfm out of the box.. I haven't had any problems with them and they're working the very best.. One of the neat features is the raised valve cover ridge, very cool..

AFR's are good as well.. My friend has a set of 195's on a 406 in a Datsun 280Z that goes 10.8 on the motor.. (vic junior intake, comp cams nitrous cam, 9:1 compression...)

Whichever head you go with, you should consider aluminum.. They'll allow a higher compression with the same fuel octane..

Cheers,

wingnut

I'm in the market for cylinder heads and was leaning towards the Iron Eagles (200cc). Having owned them, what is your assessment? Going by flow numbers I've seen posted on the web, they appear to give the best bang for the buck. They run about $860 for a fully assembled pair, by me.

My engine specs are very similar to yours:
408 SBC, 9.6:1 CR, CC Magnum 286H (236/236 @ .050", .490/.490 lift), Weiand Stealth intake, Holley 750 DP, 1 3/4" long tube headers.

Current heads are GM '997 castings that were fitted with 2.02/1.6 valves.

I've never had it on a dyno so I have no idea what kind of HP/TQ numbers it's making. It gets my '91 Firebird through the traps @ 107-108 MPH.

I'd appreciate any info you could give me on the Iron Eagles. Did you ever take your car to the track? If so, what kind of numbers were you running? I'd hate to spend the money on a set of heads and not see a significant performance gain.

Thanks

2laneblacktop

Wignut: Like I said I ran them for about a year. I had them on the 406 when it had 11.5 to 1 compression and way to much cylinder pressure and a combination of iron heads and not enough octane caused it to detonate real bad claiming the engine. Since then I put them on the rebuilt tamer compresson 406 and they seemed to feed the engine pretty well. The ports were good on them and the do have good flow numbers when compared to other brands. They actaully flow very close to the Pro 1's. The engine pulled well even past 6000rpms with the 200cc runners. In fact I was going to have them fixed and put back on but decided to go with aluminum.

I took a couple trips to the strip, but things were always screwing up it seemed like. Either blowing the engine or raining. But when I did run it was sparatic. I spun ALOT off the line on radials. I was trying to see how hard I could come off and it always spinning netting alot of 2.4 and 2.6 60's. I know, thats pathetic but I would have to get off the gas abit to have the tires catch back up and the car ran mid 13's. They are really cheap tires. I had it in the 12.90's a few times though when I was able to come off slower. That of course was with very very little tuning before the heads went on me. They cracked a water jacket and the guides are starting to go so it is smoking.

But for your combo, I think they are a good deal for what you get. Although running a 408, have you thought about the 215's. They will flow a bit better and feed you large cubes better. 400's are torque monsters as it is, and if you race often you might see better top end performance from a bigger runner. Thats why I am going with the larger runner.

I don't know that is what you wanted to here. If you have any more specific questions, please ask and I will do my best to answer them. But for the most part I thought they were good heads for the price.

2laneblacktop

[Well first off its not a truck engine. Thats kind of a slap in the face since we are talking about a street/strip performace engine. Next I said it is a Holley 780, so N/A. Lastly I shift the car around 6 grand.


I know the ports aren't going to be CNC quality. But I am looking for a head that can supply enough for a 500 or so hp engine in the end. Are the ports on a Dart Pro 1 actually that bad that they would need to be cleaned up before use. I would hate to know I just spent 1200 dollars on them and they can't flow well enough, that I would need to spend extra money on cleaning them up. I am pretty handy but I don't think I want to port or polish on a brand new head myself.

If you could, please just explain why you dislike the Darts, or why you feel they aren't the hot setup. I want to hear everyones opinion.

Thanks

fireturd350

iTrader: (8)

If your going to shift out at 6k not much use for really big intake cc's. The 220cc AFR head is made to rev 8k or more. I think you would be better off going with a smaller head (210 or smaller) and pull more tq out of it too. If I remember right Car Craft made 520 hp on a 350 using AFR 195 cc heads and 540 on a 383 using the same heads.

Just something to think about.

2laneblacktop

Yeah, thats why I asked about the AFR 195's first off. I have read lots of articles with them on 350's and 383's making good power. But I have heard their valve train isn't that great.

I just wanted to see what everyones opinion was about 195's on a 400. I have noticed a lot of fuelie cars have big cubic inch and 195's but I don't see many with carbs here on the board. Maybe I am just not seeing it.

BOTLFED

The valve train is fine for a low reving, mild cam'd motor like yours.. The guys that complain about the valve train are the freaks with .600 lift roller cams and insane stuff like that where valve train weight matters..

My buddies AFR 195s went 10 seasons without having anything done to them.. He broke down and redid them this summer, but it didn't make too much of a difference..

Cheers,

Damon

I have used both those heads and have run them back-to-back against eachother (200cc Dart heads vs. AFR 190s). The Dart head is a good head. Better than most people give it credit for. They flow well and make good power. Night-and-day better than a mildly worked stock casting in my experience. It's my favorite inexpensive go-to performance head. Good bang/buck.

However, the AFR is a cut above. Worth every penny of the extra money they charge (plus the 4 week wait). You just can't buy a better head out-of-the-box. If you can swing the few hundred extra bucks- do it. You won't be sorry. I went with a rather mild 190cc intake heads since I'm not turning a lot of RPMs on my 383 small block. I suspect that their larger heads are just as good for big cube/high RPM applications.

Also worth noting is the fact that you should always buy AFR heads DIRECTLY from AFR. There are many companies that buy bare castings from AFR and then machine and assemble them with their own stuff. Not good. ALL OF THE MAGIC of the AFR head is in the CNC machining they do to them. If you're not paying at least $1250 for your new AFR heads you're probably getting an AFR casting with somebody else's questionable machine and port work. Buy straight from the source. (Plus, their sales and tech support people are top notch and very anxious to make you get the most out of your purchase).

2laneblacktop

Damon: What does your combo look like? Is your cam very radical? What kind of performance did you have before and then after? Just trying to get an idea. Thanks, your post is very thought provoking.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

Just sticking with being a PITA, why are you posting this in power adder? And on the truck engine thing… there are some sick truck engines out there, but my point was that with the details you gave you really could be building anything.

Straight up, I feel that the darts are not as modern or well designed as compared to AFR’s or even the Pro Topline heads (I really think that the PT heads and GM’s vortec heads are neck and neck for best bang for the $). I feel that AFR goes that extra step to give you a product that is hard to beat, and you pay for it.

My $.02- to rev and make power to 6K on that 406 you really will need a head that will flow around 260cfm at a little under your peak lift. I really wouldn’t worry about port size since a well built 406 will still have plenty of port velocity even with something like a 220cc intake port. If you have the funds I’d be looking at AFR’s, and if you’re looking to save a few duckets then the Pro toplines, in either case I’d be looking at heads over 200cc’s. I also suspect that you might end up looking for a little larger cam to make things happy at 6K rpm. I’d also try to keep that compression in the low 10:1 range as long as you plan on keeping it fed with the good stuff.

wingnut

Thanks for the input - that's what I was hoping to hear. Out of the box, the Darts out flow the Pro Toplines (as well as the Vortecs). Unless sources such as this one are incorrect.

Thanks for the reply 2laneblacktop. Good luck with your combo!

camarojoe

I'd have to agree w/ Damon for the most part. However after comparing my CNC ported 190's to my TEA ported 210s, I've decided that there's no CNC machine that can touch a set of professionally hand-ported heads. The CNC'ing that AFR uses is excellent, but it's just not comparable to what could be done with these heads and the right porter. I'd recommend spending the extra money on AFR as others have said, these heads are so much nicer than just about every other casting I've seen. My vote-195's over the 215's, this will equal maximum tq, which is what running a 400 is all about. This is coming from someone w/ a 383 and ported AFR 210's if that makes any sense. :lala:

406 S10 Man

iTrader: (1)

I would definately go with the AFR 210's. I can't wait to build a turbo motor with them. The magazines are making the best power with the AFR's and the mid lift flow numbers are untouchable.

I have Ironeagle 200's and they work ok, 115 mph trap speed is pretty good. I am running the XE 284, everything else is the same as the original poster.

If you look at the port sizes on the Protoplines, they are huge compared to what they flow. The AFR's would make a lot more low end torque because they have much better velocity. I almost bought a set of the toplines, but then i saw some flow numbers and thought better of it.

Damon

My combo is a roots-blown 383. The original combo with the Dart Iron Eagle heads had a bit too much compression (9.2:1) and a smallish 216/216 cam on a 112* LSA. It made just redicuous amounts of torque down low but got a bit "breathless" on the top end. When I put on the AFR heads I dropped compression to 8.7:1 and put in a slightly bigger cam (224/230 on a 114* LSA). Despite the double-whammy of lower compression and bigger cam the bottom end torque was almost the same but the top end....... totally different animal. I attribute the top end improvement about 50/50 between the slightly larger cam and the much better-flowing AFR heads. I was also making this power with LESS IGNITION ADVANCE. 28*AFR vs. 30* for the Darts, so I think the chambers are slightly more efficient as well, but I have no indesputible proof of that.

Don't get me wrong- the Darts are GOOD heads. I have a friend with a set of the aluminum Dart Pro1s BOLTED ON OUT OF THE BOX to his his n/a big-cammed 383 and they pull like a mule to 7000 RPMs well into the 12s in a 4000 lb car. It's just the AFRs flow a bit more than that even though they use smaller runners. The AFR 190/195s outflow a set of 200cc Dart heads by about 20-25 CFM on both intake and exhaust from most of the stuff I've read. More flow from smaller runners is a good thing. You get the flow PLUS better velocity to really pack the intake charge in the cylinder across a wide RPM range.

The only other quality issue I had between them is that the AFRs have excellent guides and valve seals on them. NO puffs of oil smoke under any condition. I have yet to work on a set of Darts that didn't let at least a little bit of oil past the guides and give the occasional tiny puff of oil smoke. Darts just come with looser guides and seals, near as I can tell.

camarojoe

Good info guys. 2laneblacktop, have you made up your mind yet or have we done it for you?? J/K I really like the 190's or 195's for your cam you have. This combo will be an awesome balance of hp and tq, plus you will have a killer stop light cruiser w/ gobs of low end. If you want more hp than tq, step up to the AFR 210's and a cam w/ 10-12* more duration. The AFR 210's are really awesome, there's no better feeling than taking a smallblock to 6500rpms and hearing it scream up there. And the 210's are perfect for that.

2laneblacktop

Thanks for all the input guys. Lets just say I'm closer to making my decision. If I can ever catch them when ther aren't busy, I would like to talk to there tech rep. I would really like to have the AFR's but money is in mind when thinking about the 210's. They are a bit out of my grasp once I get them milled down to 64cc. If I wouldn't get them milled, I am going to wish I did.

I think it is interesting how different everyones opinion is on the Dart heads. I always read that they were a good head and a good buy. I thought they performed well when I ran them.

camarojoe

The best Dart street/strip head are the pre-ported 227cc Pro 1's. But they're 2k for a bare set, hardly affordable. Any of the AFR heads will outflow any of Darts cheaper heads in the mid range. I paid $1450 for my 190's milled to 60cc and w/ all the TPI modifications and I got them from Total Engine Airflow, with about a five week waiting time. These heads had the CNC porting from AFR, but I got ARP studs added and upgraded valve springs also for this price. If I would have order from AFR, I would have waited close to two months and I'd have been about $300 poorer.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

First, I don't see the specific heads that we're discussing there, but even if you feel the 200cc toplines are representative of the larger ones... flow isn't everything. Chamber efficiency, the ports velocity profile and even the way the airflow enters the chamber has a major effect on an engine's efficiency.

1989RS

i say go with the afr's, i have yet to hear of anything negative, and thats what i will probaby end up using on my 406, (when i can afford them)lol

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

You want to hear something negative about AFRs? OK, I’ve never seen a set flow what they advertise them to flow, but OTOH, who cares if they work?

2laneblacktop

What runner size are you thinking about going with? Just wondering.

I am in full agreement that AFR is a good head. They are just so costly. I talked to a tech guy at AFR and he said that if I am going to be going to a larger cam at all in the future that I would probably be better off with the 210s. But to get the 210s the way I would need them milled to 64cc, thats going to be more in the neighborhood of 1600 dollars+. That is just too costly for me. I think I would be better off getting the Darts and having them mildly ported and still be money ahead. This is just a big decision, and since race season is drawing to a close around here there isn't any real hurry so I am just weighing all my options

Superman

I've dealt with two set that have not flowed up to the advertised numbers as well.

1989RS

i was thinkin about the 210's myself, ive got flattops, so id prolly still have about 9.8- 10.0 to 1 comp with/68cc's

but how about this, on ebay they got a set of used nascar sb2.2 heads with the intake for 1400 right now, that would be cool, the absolute best flowing heads for a small block easliy making 750+hp naturally aspirated....that dont sound too bad to me, just, you'd have to run a dished piston unless you want like...15 to 1 comp or somethin like that

fireturd350

iTrader: (8)

Yeah, just be carefull when looking at nascar heads they can be 18 or 15 degree heads instead of 23. Which means it could take a little bit of custom working on stuff. I never really like ebay for heads... just the hair line chance you buy a nice set and find out that they have a crack or are warped.