B4Ctom1

No they made more with the short rod and I dont know why if I recall they didnt really either. The rod angularity and ring seal are only part of the equation. that the the dwell duration for the piston spent at TDC and BDC during the cycle is supposed to offer higher cylinder pressures from a better burn and a better exhaust discharge (for TDC) and better intake charge (for BDC). This is just the way I have read it. I guess we could look at the ford guys and see that the 302 has a rod around 5" long but the 351 has one about 6" go figure?

383backinblack

ya i knew about the dwell theory........its all sound science but the problem is its difficult to observe and do research on parts inside a running engine lol. maybe someday we'll know the truth

strokedTA

OK, I use to be high on the rod ratio thingy also, BUT the only real thing to worry about with rods, is if they stay together. Rod ratio has never been proven to help or hurt in reliability or power gains.
This being reinforced by David Reher (Reher & Morrison Racing), when he said "the only purpose of the rod is to move the piston, rod length doesn't matter at all".

1) Now that being said, since you have the crank already for 6" rods, there's no reason for anybody else trying to tell you to go with anything else. It says 6" and bigger for balance reasons mainly, so if you don't want to use 6" go with 5.7's power will be the same.

2) running a 377 would defeat the purpose altogether! The only reason to run one would be Class limitations on CI's. There's no power to be gained over a 406 and magazines have done tests to prove it.

3) a 302 chevy is a 327 with a 283 crank.

Good luck and build a 6" 406.
P.S. I'm selling my BME nitrous pistons (cost me $850) for $450. LOL
They're for a 30over 400, with 6" rods,will yield 11:1 with 72 cc heads, full floating tool steel pins. Ran about a year, just at the strip maybe 15 times. Nothing wrong with them, just stepping up to 14:1 compression.

Dave Brown
93 TA 406 Dart block (653 horse on motor) 6.69 in the 1/8mile on motor

87_TA

Thanks

Sorry I have 64 cc heads.

SATURN5

Ford 302 blocks and 351 blocks have a different deck height (8.2 vs. 9.5). The bore centers are the same, cam, but everything else is changed between the two. BW

B4Ctom1

Now that you have stated the obvious... what does that have to do with the fact that 400's ran for years with their short stock rods and 302's run just fine with theirs?

SATURN5

Well first, most 400s, were low comp, low rpm 2 barrel engines. This alone for any engine, with regular oil changes would last for years. 400's as everyone knows in stock form were not designed as a performance engine. It just had to lug the wife, kids and groceries around in a wagon.

The long stroke and short rods are the main contributors to the poor ring seal and wear to the thrust side of the cylinder wall that 400's are known for. The exteme rod angle of 19.33 degrees is the factor in this.
This also ties into the 400's very poor rod/stroke ratio of 1.48, below the "accepted" minimum 1.5, again, low rpm limited. Don't believe me, check into a Winston Cup engine, most have rod/stroke ratios approaching 2 to 1, and live at high rpm. For example a chevy 302's ratio is 1.9.

A Ford 302 being fairly oversquare with a 4" bore and 3" stroke but with shorter rods than a Chevy 302 has a ratio of 1.7, well above 1.5 min ratio. Boss 302's were well known to run to +7000 rpm, with the stock factory pistons being the weak link (skirt cracking). cheers, BW

ctandc

Okay......good tech stuff.

Now REAL World.....

Yup on the W.Cup engines...but they run up to 8000RPM sometimes ALL DAY LONG.....

And they are torn down after each race.

400 small blocks, with the short rods will rev all day to 6500 RPM , but if the engine is not built to make it's best power there why bother?

I can show you 4 different 400's I built over the last 8 years or so, and all are still running. 3 are daily driven vehicles, and one of those has been in 3 different vehicles already.

The 4th resides in a 10% street ( cruise nights, to and from the track ) and 90 % strip engine.

ARP rod bolts on resized stock rods.
Stock block .030 or .040 bore, can't remember for sure, I've slept and had a beer since then
Forged TRW pistons
Everything else is basic

The shortblock has over 70k miles on it, as the car was a daily driver for 5 or so years.
Heads were swapped by the guy I sold the motor to...he used some Bowtie or Canfield, can't remember, they had a basic port and polish done.
Cam is a pretty nasty solid lifter ( non roller )
Intake is the old style Victor Jr.

Car was running 11.80's last year in a 3300lb car with a dialed in suspension. He was shifting at 6400 RPM.

He made a minimum of 125 1/4 mile passes that year....he actually thinks alot more, but he's goin' by the runs he has documented.

He had the motor apart last I talked to him, and he said he was going to go ahead and freshen it up, even though nothing showed any abnormal wear....as he plans to jump it to some insane compression ratio as it's strip only now.

I don't see where the short rods are a problem.....in anything under a 600 HP all out 1/4 assault vehicle.....and at that point, the block is the weak spot, NOT the rods.....

And even Lingenfelter and Vizard have stated over and over, that when trying to maximize the TORQUE output of an engine, the rod length takes a backseat to other factors....

The biggest mistake, in my lowly opinion, that causes rod failure is not prepping the stock rods correctly. Which IMHO means checking 'em for faults beforehand, measuring the big ends, and getting 'em resized, especially after adding new bolts.

Now it goes without saying, for me , magnufluxing the block, heads ( if used parts ) rods and crank are done BEFORE anything else. And I normally get the rods shotpeened for an extra $35 or so.

Now I'm not arguing the "physics" of your statement....you ARE correct in your statements...but we're comparing apples and oranges...and I Still say, anything under 500 HP, stock rods work just fine.....

Now if the core rods you start with are junk, then alot of times, it makes more sense to upgrade to aftermarket rods, simply for the $ involved....


Just my highly inflated 2 cents

Chris

B4Ctom1

you definitely have a firm grasp on the obvious, this changes nothing that I have stated.

B4Ctom1

Oh, "ctandc" (from above) well put man

SATURN5

I don't see where I have disagreed with your statements..



Whether short rod or long rod, as ctandc states, proper prep, machining and assembly are the real secrets to making horsepower and reliability. The rest is really personal preference.

B4Ctom1

I just figured when you queted what I was saying you either disagreed or were trying to tell me something. but as far as the quality work and assembly it is definitely agreed.

SATURN5

No, I didn't disagree, just that the your statement I qouted was vague regarding the rod lengths of two different windsor blocks.

I knew you knew the difference, just that others may not know.

BTW, have you decided to run a small stroke crank in your 400?

ctandc

Hey.......here's something kinda FUNNY......


After this thread, I was thumbing through some old SBC books.....one is the Lingenfelter book......

He's got the rod length to stroke ratio WRONG in his BOOK

He lists the 400 as having a 1.59 ratio.........uhh.....nope......that would be 5.565 / 3.75 = 1.484




Chris
Easily amused......

B4Ctom1

Have you read about what Lingenfelter has been doing lately? A while back he wrecked his import drag car at around 200 on what possibly would have been a new import racing record and broke his neck and other things, they though he might not survive. Well he did and he was doing really good month later. Well they moved him to indianapolis o be closer to home and where the best accident trauma guys are. They decided to go in and fix his neck or spinal injuries and had a reaction to the anesthetic and is now in a coma: the NHRA site says, "Lingenfelter's physicians rate the prognosis to recover from his neck and spinal injuries as 'excellent,' according to the family. But they say the chances of recovery from his semi-comatose state are 'extremely poor' in 'the foreseeable future'." http://www.nhrasportcompact.com/2002...genfelter.html

f-crazy

iTrader: (-1)

who needs a 406 my 305 is faster then everything....
sorry guys i had to...

keep it goin im learning a lot...

im looking at a jrmotorsports 406 shortblock, 5.7 rod

about john...he was running his cavalier like tom said to a world record...

i think they should pull up one of his twin turboed 427 vettes to his window and fire it up...i bet thatll wake him up

ctandc

Well I thought this would apply to this thread.......

Friend of mine from my old hometown had be put together a 408 short block for him last year......it's been gathering dust in his shed since. He called to let me know he finally got it running......

Quick specs.....

- 2-bolt GM 400 block, tanked, magged etc .040 over
- Stock GM 400 crank, it only needed polishing
- Stock 5.565" rods, shot peened, resized ARP bolts
- Vortec Cylinder heads, drilled for steam holes
- Comp Cams XE268 cam and lifters
- Scoggin Dickey TPI intake
- Arizona Speed & Marine large tube runners
- 30lb injectors
- Ported stock plenum
- Stock Throttle Body
- 1 5/8" primary headers
- True Duals w/ Dynomax Turbos' 2.5" system


He's using a 165 MAF system, it was swapped into a mid 70's full size Chevy 2WD truck.....the engine was intended for a Camaro he had, but he thought it would be too mild......

He got the thing dyno'd last week.
They are using an ARAP bin PROM, adjusted for injector constant.

Are you guys ready for this???

251HP @ 4600 RPM and GET THIS....... 348 ft/lbs @3200 RPM

Can you say MONSTER MOTOR?????

He said it could probably use MORE cam, as this is a mild grind in a 350 , much less a 400.

Compression is right at 10:1, and the Vortecs didn't give any hint of giving any detonation , even with the aggressive spark curve of the ARAP bin.......

That's just NASTY.........

The motor is suited perfectly to the TPI, but he's already considering a bigger, roller cam after break-in, and he's now decided to find another car to dump the motor into.......

He said even with the stock stall, Turbo 400 and big truck tires, it will flat MELT the tires......

his only bitch was the cost of the intake ( $400 ). The runners he got used ( $200 ), headers were there, heads were $400 complete and ready to bolt on from a guy he knows, the machine work was @ $400, Rebuild kit was $300, Balancer $70, flywheel he had, Cam and lifters @$130, and he scrounged the rest of the TPI setup.

He figures, with what he paid me, the parts, and everything, he's got less than $2800 to get it running.......

He's not a computer saavy person at all, but I'm trying to get him to shoot some video of it.......

87_TA

Ok guys ,
Build up is under way-Block is being prepped right now.
I have just one question for you guys that have made a 6" rod 406.
Do I need to run a small base circle cam if using 3d rods (eagle)?
Also do I need to relieve the block anywhere?
THANKS.

strokedTA

You'll have to relieve the bock in a few spots, along the pan rail and the bottom of the cylinders to be safe and it would be a good idea to run a small base circle cam. They don't cost anymore.
It all really depends on the set-up. That's why you Pre-Assemble the motor. Also if you are dealing with a production block, which I imagine you are. At least plug the deck. If you can I'd even put in a "shortfill" and if you do fill it, make sure you run an oil cooler.

Those 2 steps will do wonders for the structural integrity of the block. I plug the deck on all my prodction blocks that will see anything over 400 horse or so.

With the 3d rods, you'll have to clearance a few of them also.
I have 4340 H beams and a small basecircle billet cam and didn't have to clearance for the cam.

Good luck,
Dave

87_TA

Thanks for the great info..
Well I already have the cam I plan to use (regular) hope it works...
How about steam holes? Do I need them? do they help?
And lastly where do I drill them?
Thanks again.

strokedTA

The block will have the holes and the machine shop should know where to put the holes on the heads. If not I'd run for the hills and find a new shop.
Yes, you need them for street use.

Good luck,
Dave

Chris Ja

Ok guys there has got to be someone out there selling 406 short blocks? I am disabled and want to do one but would rather buy a short block and just swap my cam LPE219/525, LPE L98 Dport heads and superram on it. 10.1 compression would be fine as a street strip motor. Any one know who is selling these short blocks? There are 383 everywhere. I want a 406 after all this reading on this thread. You guy have me ready to go. Once I get the engine done I would add a P1SC in a few months when the engine is broken in.

strokedTA

Chris,
There are a few places that sell 406 short blocks, but you won't find one that can use your cam. Your cam is for a stock hyd roller motor, won't work in an old non-roller motor.
You'd also be better off getting better heads. Those iron stokers won't flow enough to make a 406 very happy. A bigger cam would work better too. If you're going to build one you might as well make it worthwhile.

FWIW: I have a 400 block right now and could build you a motor if you like. I was going to build it for my daily driver, but spending too much money on my racecar.

So, if you are interested email me.

Dave Brown
Wheels Up Racing

ctandc

Good point on the factory roller cam working in the 400 block...HOWEVER, it CAN be used, but it's not plug and play. LPE sells a cam button / thrust plate setup you can use, but you do have to drill and tap the screws for the cam retaining setup that a factory roller cam uses.

As for the cylinder heads, I wouldn't be so hasty......there are SEVERAL Vette guys running the LPE ported L98 alum Vette heads and turning 10's and 11's in NA 383 / 406 combo's......NORMALLY on a set of D port L98's I'd agree, but the flow numbers from the LPE ported version are pretty tasty.



HTH

strokedTA

I don't think the stock block has enough meat in it in that area to be drilling a tapping for the retainer plate.
Plus after you do all that crap, the cam still isn't big enough for a 400+ cube motor.

If those heads don't flow 280+cfm then I wouldn't use them.

I'll build it however a customer wants it, but I also like to mention what would make it a better motor, now and later.

Dave

87_TA

You do not use a retaining plate,thats what the cam button is for .. The retaining plate keeps cam from walking forward - as is what a cam button does. And the thrust plate he is speaking of
is for the timing cover,not the block. its for support for the button
on front of cam as to not dent cover and make more play.
However you will not be able to use factory lifters unless somebody welds in bolt bosses for the spyder tray,if not you can just buy aftermarkets with the link bars as I will be using.

245 cfm is enough to support 450+ hp,but since he is boosting as mentioned the will give even more.
I use mild pocket ported darts on mt S/C 355 running 10.6's
@128 thats about 560 HP (not to mention pump gassed.)

Chris Ja

You should just take that P1SC kit off and sell it to me.:rockon:
I am torn between a P1SC and a 406. I think at times of just installing the P1SC. I would rather go with a 406 tho. After becoming sick I just can't do alot of work anymore. If some one has a 406 that is in good condition and wants to sell it let me know. I would be ready to purchase it by next week end. I would want to run my superram on it. I don't care if it has heads or not as I can use my vette heads and superram. I am looking for a street/strip engine. I will get the supercharger in the fall when I have more money.
i found a couple of places that sell 406 stroker motors. Jr motorsports and Diaboloical performance. Any one know of some more places? Thanks for any help guys. I knew I should not have started reading this thread.
:sillylol:

strokedTA

87_TA
All you use is a button. The thrust plate is for holding in the cam when not using a button. Unless you are thinking of the thrust plate behind the cam gear, then it's still not touhing your cover.

On the heads: Just think what you'd run with some real ones!

I don't know anything though. I just have a 650 horse motor off the bottle, and 11:1 compression, with a nitrous cam. Imagine if I had some real compression and a NA cam in there. hehehe

Chirs,
I'll sell you my 406 for $10,000.00.

Dave
www.shafiroff.com

87_TA

Well you just got done saying it his factory roller would not even work in a 400.....

I know what a cam button does,do you? You need support on a stock cover for frontward forces of the cam when using a button ,grab your nearest summit and look at water pumps with adjustable cam thrust stops.


Well you told him his heads are a waste,I was merely saving him money.
As for me,If i could afford ported AFR 210'S I would have them..
But i cant


You said it..

Do it on pump gas and get back to me with some slips.

Wow you have 10 g's in that ? ....

I must really be cheap cause my little 355 only cost $5,500
with the blower.

strokedTA

Ok, smartass. My motor ran that number on 93 octane. It will run all day like that.
I know what cam button is I have one on my motor, DOH.

I didn't say his heads were a waste, you're just trying to put words in my mouth to make yourself feel better about not having a point to argue about.

This post wasn't made for a arguement. That I know of.

My motor is a Dart block (there's $2000.00 right there), I have $3500 in my heads, and so on.
Motor is build for 1100+ horse on the spray, not bad for a baby cam and low compression if you ask me!

Bring your mouth to the track and let's see how far it gets you!

I haven't taken any shots at anyone on here, but seems that's what you need to do to feel good about yourself.

So.. I'm done here.

Dave

87_TA

HMMM?

AHHH...

OHHKAY

So was the point of your reply to brag about what you have ?
Or just to tell people what they have sux?

My mouth has been to the track many of time,along with my car - how about yours. The car I mean,Im sure your mouth has been there telling everybody how fast you car at home is.



If you know what it is why would you tell him his cam would not work?

Maybe I am out of line here, it seems your prior post had more than a little fire behind it. Is it because you were wrong?
If I took it wrong I apologize and truly am sorry.




Not bad at all Dave.. Nor did I think My (not real) headed 355
was to bad either...

Has your car been to the track? what did it run?
With 650 HP, MPH should be somewhere around 134 or so in a 3500 lb car.

Again if I was out of line I apologize

Chris Ja

Guys cool down. I am sorry everyone got upset. I am going to order a P1SC this weekend. Then I will build a 406. By fall I will have the 406 ready to go. Then I can install it over the winter. Thanks for the information.

strokedTA

Evidentally you don't know who I am.
A lot of 4th gen guys know and know of me.
I'm one of the main guys that has gotten hell for putting a carb in my car. I help a lot of people out with questions on that matter, fairly often.

I've been to the track a LOT, racing, watching and helping friends and customers with their set-ups and tuning.

My car has been 6.69 (roughly 10.50 in the 1/4) in the 1/8 at over 101 mph, that was without much tuning and on the motor. If I sprayed I would have been kicked out of the tracks. I haven't ran for my license yet, but will next month. Also had to wait to get my chassis certified first.

My quote of $10,000.00 was "turnkey" dominator to oil pan and crank trigger ignition, NX rail system direct port set-up (with jets to 600 horse, 200 being the lowest). I don't think that's too bad.

I don't know why you are the one getting so defensive. If they thought I was flaming them they would have said something.

Glad you apologized.
I also apologize if I hurt anyone's feelings!

Dave Brown
http://strokedta.vettextc.net/track/Dave-1.jpg
http://strokedta.vettextc.net/track/Dave-2.jpg

B4Ctom1

is this you?

B4Ctom1

or this?

strokedTA

I think that first one is acustomer of mine (Joe V.)?

The second one I haven't seen before, but I hope he did something about his chassis flex.

That first one is the way you should launch (level). Good solid chassis.

Dave

87_TA

Nice launch Dave!

87_TA

here ya go

Chris Ja

Looking good guys.

89ProchargedROC

Couple things i noticed in this whole thread:

1) Tom...you have a .060 factory block and you want to put a lot of hp and boost through it? CRAZY. I wouldn't run a .060 350 block

2) Tom...a D-1SC supports 1100hp on a big block camaro and the P-1SC is only rated at like 200cfm less right? You could make plenty of power with it

3) With all your arguements and numbers with the short vs long rod NONE of you (unless i'm mistaken i could've missed something ) mentioned the biggest gain with going with a longer rod ---> PISTON WEIGHT. Go compare the weight of the piston for the 2 rods and it is significant. That means a lot when you are turning BIG rpms at the track

4) Dave Brown aka strokedTA knows what he is talking about and wasn't really trying to start $hit. Some people just took his posts the wrong way

5) Hi Dave Email me sometime....my car is almost done

B4Ctom1

It is 1/4 filled and If it scatters I wont sweat it but I really dont think it will (zen and the art of destroying stuff) "keep the vibes positive man"...j/k I dont care I am building another, splayed cap .030 over block with a 327 crank and 6.0" rods to replace it hopefully before it will.

Yeah, the size dimensionally and power output capability wise hardly seems worth the near $800-$1K they want to convert it to D-1sc. I was just wondering because I see a S-trim and a P-1sc as being very similarly capable and we put an s-trim on a 383 with AFR's and it didnt make as much boost as I wanted it to even with no belt slip and a smaller pulley. it only made around 600+ to the rears. I could be way off beacause possibly a P-1sc is twice the blower that an s-trim is and I just dont know better. any thoughts?

89ProchargedROC

Dude....honestly i'd love to be positive for you but not with a .060 boost motor, especially a 400. You are REALLY rolling the dice. Which is cool, your stuff your porogative. Just letting you know that i dont know of many .060 over 350 blocks that dont crack with boosted motors.

You part of the blown emailing list? There was just a thread about .060 motors and many of them who had them, all cracked.

but

GOOD LUCK MAN

383backinblack

thats like driving a tactical nuclear weapon down the street....

now thats livin :rockon:

strokedTA

Why run that block?
There are a bunch of "virgin" blocks out there to be had (I have one , 4 bolt mains too, that I'd sell for $100.00).
IF you HAD to use that one and bore it that much, I'd at least FILL it.
I also have never heard of a 1/4 fill, you wouldn't have anything in it.
Most people either go with a "short" (half) fill or go all the way and fill it.

Just trying to help.
Dave

B4Ctom1

to put you all at ease I just bought a set of aluminum 200cc pro-cylinder heads with straight plugs (for my slp 1 3/4" headers) at auction new for $950 tonight. they are going on the 412 and into the cruiser 92 with the super ram, not the blown 91 with the stealthram. I figured the 412 will make a nice N/A street motor. Before any of you think about typing the word overheat or overheating you should take your **** and put it in the vise and hammer on it a dozen or so times :-) I have run .060 over 400's in every kind of 3rd gen camaro without incident. without even modifying the cooling system (except the flowcooler w/p) :-) If you havent been able to do this your self I suggest learning about cooling basics. BTW Im looking for a HSR intake, rails, and possibly TB for the 91 with the P-1sc. p.s. thanks to every one that chimed in to help me decide about running the blower on the .060 over 400 motor because I am definitely short on chevy boosted info in some cases.

87_TA

Anybody here using a high capacity pan with SLP headers and Y pipe?
Any clearance probs?

87_TA

Also just an update on this project,here is what ive got together right now.
SRP pistons 10.3 @ 0 deck 425 GRAMS,Cat 3D 6" RODS 4340 650 GRAMS,Scat crank internally balanced 53lbs.
CComp cams 230/230 560/560 @ 110lsa.
Canfield heads 195/65cc 1.6 / 2.08.
Should be complete in less than 2 weeks.

B4Ctom1

I am very curious about this too. it seems the SLP's have alot of fitment problems, TPI_ROC had to modify his x-over pipe because of his sportsman II's even

87_TA

Well wanted to let you all know I have fire!!
Thanks to all that helped in my decision to build a 6" rod 406.

Here are the contents of my new package.

400 block + .030 squared and decked to 0 height.
6" cat 3d H beam rods
SRP pistons (forged) 16cc holes 10.3 c/r
scat internally balanced crank.
canfield 65cc heads 2.08/1.60
hyd roller(late model style) 230/230 560/560 110lsa

Just as a note, I did nothave to do any clearancing of the block or did I have to use a small base circle cam.

I also used a late model cam with late model timing set using lingenfelters thrust plate and button (no machining required)
And I will let all of you out there know that comp cams also told me it cannot be done,but lingenfelter said they have been doing it for years as well as TPIS.


Thanks again all,well Im gonna get this prom dailed in and hit the
track within a week or two.

87_TA

Well it has not ET'ed that well yet but it still looks good.
So far 12.27 @ 110.7