vortech305

But its not for my setup. I have an 87' TPI on my 92' camaro. Im running V belts, The only pullies im using is the Alternator,Crank,Waterpump and powersteering. No AC,smog pump. Now i understand that the only way i can bolt on this kit is by doing a serpentine conversion. I looked at various sites concerning this and i still dont get it. I mean id have to change the waterpump right? What about every other pully? Could i reuse the alternator? Im confused

BTW the kit needs to be rebuild. What do prices range to?

Guido

They arent cheap to have rebuilt. I dont think Paxton themselves even rebuilds them any longer. It is outsourced to another company that I dont remember the name of.

On a serpentine conversion, the water pump IS different. It rotates the opposite direction of the v-belt years f-body water pump. The alternator is different as well. The pre 88 alternator will not work.

Power steering pump lines are different.

Dan W

The waterpump does have to be changed to go with the serpentine setup. The back side of the belt runs on the waterpump on a serpentine system... this would cause your pump to run backwards.

The rest of the accessories still run in the front side of the belt so they run in the same direction with either system.

You will have to find out if the alternater and PS pump will take the correct serpentine pully. Does the bracket you have offer the correct offset? How are you going to tension the belt? What side of the motor does the supercharger go on with the setup you bought?

If I were in your boat, I'd buy the components from the car the kit originally came off and not mess with trying to figure out what I could salvage from my current setup. (You said SN92... I've never heard that designation used for an F-Body before but I assume its for a '92 TPI car) In any case, I'd buy a new water pump and alternator from autozone (for a '92) and get the brackets/pullies/tensioner/ps pump from one of the parts recyclers that advertise on the top of the page.

Raiden

The altenator should mount on the bracket that houses the supercharger.

btcamaro

THE PLACE TO CALL FOR THE REBUILD INFO IS PARADISE WHEELS INC. THE # IS (760) 740-0954 YOU CAN HAVE THEM BUILD IT OR JUST BUY THE PARTS THAT YOU NEED AND DO IT YOURSELF. THE LAST I CHECKED I BELIEVE THAT THE CENTER SHAFT WAS AROUN $150.00 AND THE BALL BEARINGS WERE AROUND $10.00 EACH AND THE REAR SEAL IS LIKE $50.00 TO $75.00 USUALLY THAT IS ALL THAT YOU NEED TO FIX IT UNLESS THERE IS MAJOR PROBLEMS WITH THE CHARGER.

vortech305

phew, thanx guys, I couldnt ask for better help. I thought i was gonna get a "DO A SEARCH". Im still searching around and i guess it'll be best for me to install the paxton bracket and see what i need and go from there. Its still a little confusing i must admit. Thanx again for the # that really helped out.

bEtUr4dRustang

hey
What is the ratio of the FMU that comes with this kit? I am trying see if putting my own kit together with a used blower headunit is a possiblity.

vortech305

Id help you out if i could but i just won the kit on ebay 2 days ago, So when i get it i'll let you know.

vortech305

Anyone happen to have Paxtons website if they happen to have one? I've used aj,google,yahoo and cant find one namely for the SN-92 kits

Raiden

Paxton no longer caries the Sn series blowers. You need to speak to Craig @ Paradise wheels.

bEtUr4dRustang

...the paradise wheel company doesn't have a website either
Paxton does but it won't help you here...

I have been doing a lot of research on this machine myself so if you have some questions ask them cause if i don't know the answer, i probably want to know it. :P

As far as i can tell...this blower gets a bad rep cause people expect too much from it. I would not try to make it make more than the stock amount of boost which is around 5-6 lbs.
38000 rpm is the maximum speed the blower can spin at. with a 6 inch crank pulley and a 4in blower pulley, you hit the max rpm of the unit a little over 5500 rpm...which is perfect for my application.

FORMULA FOR BLOWER SPEED:
CRANK PULLEY DIAM/BLOWER PULLEY DIAM X 4.4(internal ratio of the paxton) X rpm of engine= blower speed.
so...
6/4 X 4.4 X 5500 = 36300. I may run a 6.25 inch crank pulley although that will get my boost up a bit too high at 5500 rpm... still you are theoretically allowed to subtract 10% of the final rpm of the blower due to belt slip.

I have not had any experience with the blower as of yet but from reading reviews it appears that those who don't expect more than it was designed to do seem happy. Yes they bought it for 3000 dollars new but you just got yours pretty cheap im sure.

Make sure you change the oil more often than they tell you to...like everytime you goto the track and every 2000 miles perhaps. Trick Shift tranny oil is the name i believe of something very highly recommended. You can run a cooler as well though it is a 200 dollar expense and, although i plan to get one, i am not going to get it right away.

It costs about 750 bucks to get them to rebuild it for you should you need to though you can get the parts and do it yourself much cheaper. Paradise wheel will also install a better impellor which flows 300 cfm more air for 100 dollars but you have to rebuild the unit to get the to do that. Impellor is about the only way i would upgrade this machine. No SMALLER PULLEYS as you hit the rpm redline much too quickly and you really don't want to have to make sure you are shifting at 4500 crank rpm so you don't blow the SC.

Apparently with this blower, you get a lemon or you don't...people seem to think they are mostly lemons but i would say that one that is still around and hasn't been pitched by now is probably going to be one of the nicer ones.

I don't know how much of that you know but I figured i could post it.

Let me know about that FMU...that is i think the only part i am a little unsure of as to what to purchase. Vortech sells a "super FMU" but i can't see needing something like that for the 5 lbs boost this thing puts out.

Good luck with it. Like i said, i don't have one but i plan to. I just figured i would put down some of the things i have learned.

B4Ctom1

It is probably equivalent or maybe slightly less efficient than the original old "A-trim" vortechs which can be had in a kit new for around $1999.99

btcamaro

I had problems with mine until I put a larger pulley to slow the blower down. I was reving it way to high. since I got the pulley size to where i am not over reving it i haven't had any problems with mine. just stick to that formula for the pulleys and keep the charger within its design limits and you will not have any problems

bEtUr4dRustang

do you happen to know what the FMU ratio is on your kit?

Thanks

vortech305

This is basically what i got here is a pic of it




I believe im missing a couple of stuff. If any of you experts see anything missing to completly bolt on please let me know. Sorry whats an FMU.

bEtUr4dRustang

you have a bit more research to do before you bolt that thing on eh? LOL, im sure you'll figure it out..

An FMU is a Fuel Management Unit. basically because out tpi systems are unable to tell whether they are being boosted or not, we have to have some way to introduce more fuel into the engine. The FMU is attached to vacuum in the manifold and can sense boost. It opens and ups the fuel pressure under boost from your stock 46 up to 50 or 60 depending on the ratio...i don't know what ratio i need yet. Some people combat a smaller ratio FMU with larger injectors though i was planning on running 30lbs anyway because i need bigger ones.

There doesn't appear to be a BTM either...though you may not need it if you are running low enough compression. The BTM, Boost timing management, will retard your timing under boost so you don't detonate. You can just set your initial timing back instead of running one of these but you will drastically hurt performance.

Both of these systems can be omitted if you use a 4479 ECM from a sy/ty or turbo sunbird. They can sense boost using a 2 or 3 bar MAP sensor...You need to put a V8 memcal into the ECM and then burn a custom PROM for it. I have no knowledge of tuning the computer so i figured it would be easier for me to leave the comptuer alone and run a BTM as well as an FMU and just tune them mechanically until it runs the best with no detonation.

bEtUr4dRustang

BTW, when you get this thing, do you have access to a scanner? I would really appreciate copies of the user's manual.

icecold

i'm running that same sc on my 90 firebird--install is pretty simple took my 2 days but i'm anel.and runed the power steering pump pully when i attempted to remove it. ran mine for 5 years without a cooler using trick flow every 3000 mi so far so good.added cooler 2years ago after reading of all the falures of this unit. the sc mounts on the drivers side and the alt moves down to a lower mounting position under the power steering pump.these units dident come with a fmu or boost retard unit instead with a cheap water injection unit to supress detonation.look to the turbo buick site for more info on water injection. the fmu is most likely not necessary but if you have a ho fuel pump i'd go for it.stock i'd leave it off as the added stress will end your stock fuel pumps life soon.sn-92 is the model not the year of the sc. hope this helps any questions just post i'd be glad to help if i can
pete

vortech305

shieeet after all the help you've given me id photocopy and mail it to you if you'd like.

Thanx for the info though. I really do appreciate it. Id like to update more on todays power adders and get a better understanding. I see that the elbows of the supercharger intake have a tube going through it. Is that were the FMU is located? If not what is it? I know how much the BTM retard is worth, but how much is the FMU worth? Im sort of scared to ask

vortech305

thanx dude, I appreciate all opinions. One thing im worried is about the injectors on my car or fuel pump. Im running Ford SVO 19# injectors and a 1 year old Replacement fuel pump. I plan on getting an adjustable fuel pressure regulator, but will fuel suffice? What would u do? BTM is on the list. My compression is at 9:5 to 1.

Any advice or question for me let me know, thanx guys.

bEtUr4dRustang

Hey
Great to hear someone who likes the supercharger. Where did you get your cooler and what did it cost? I can't find them anywhere

lane

Are you missing the crankshaft pulley? I don't see it in the pictures.

vortech305

Is it suppose to come with the kit?

lane

Yeah, it's an important part cause it drives the charger. It should be a certain size especially since the paxtons are fragile when it comes to high rpms.

You'll probably need an aftermarket fuel pump before you can utilize the effects of an FMU.

My car has a walboro 340. I'm running without an FMU and stock injectors, but my fuel pressure is jacked up to 60psi. It runs fine a WOT, but I have part throttle problems.(probably computer chip problem)

I have a sn92. It's kinda skimpy on boost, but it sounds great

icecold

got my s/c cooler off e-bay for 100.00.
yes it appears that you are missing the crank pully. the 19 lb injecters should be ok if you can turn up your fp to around 60 psi id suggest a high output fuel pump as going lean is very bad.
if you have a fmu and are running it your stock fp is fine as it will raise the fp as boost go's up.
make sure you run some sort of water injection(thats what connects to the sc ebow brass fitting.

pete

vortech305

Could u explain how water injection works? I believe i have an idea but i just rather be sure. Anyone know how much an FMU goes for?

BTW whats the pully for thats mounted on the Paxton bracket?

Raiden

Dont worry about the injectors. the ford svo's can handle up to 100psi. the GM injectors go static above 80psi. I would also suggest an aux. fuel pump to give the car needed fuel. I have a sn2000m And i had the following problems.....NOT ENOUGH FUEL! I noticed that i ran out of pep around 3500rpms. I got a vortech aux. fuel pump, ran it to a 30 amp relay and grounded it to teh hobbs and rigged up a bypass with a check valve so under boost condtions it would not push fuel back the opposite direction. This way, you willnot hve to hear it wine all of the time. IT then was running out of pep around 4500rpms. Next, AN fmu...Problem solved. Get teh super FMU! Well worth the adjustibility so you can tune it. I also upgraded to ford 24lb svo injectors, (5.7l) A pair of 19's will be fine for the 5.0l engine.

The water injection is to cool the intake charge. I use methanol instead.

vortech305

Thanx dude

bEtUr4dRustang

I can't really tell you what a FMU goes for since i don't yet know what ratio you need. Vortech sells some really niice ones.
check out this link link
There are others which are only 75 dollars but i think they are designed for lower pressures and carbs.

Water injection is very cool. Hopefully i will not have to run an FMU with it...I will not have to run a BTM for sure. for this, i would check out this place

You inject water into the air intake which doesn't really cool the intake charge all that much. The water simply inhibits detonation and you run alcohol with it up to 50/50 mix...the alcohol does burn but, it has an octane rating of 120 and so it is less likely to preignite than gasoline...this goes in and since it is injected uncompressed, from what i understand, it doesn't take up much room...it lets you run no timing retard and the alcohol mixed in can maybe allow you to not use a FMU...thats what i am hoping atleast.

vortech305

So, you'd have to refill the container with alcohol evertime it goes down? What do u use as a container the washer fluid container?

Raiden

Have to disagree with ya on the water comment. Water has the highest absorbtion rate for heat! 1lb of h2o absorbs over 130000Btu's. The etoh allows for higher octane..wife is bugging me sorry for the short post

Raiden

Oh yea, a super FMU from vortech cost about 280$. And it's probally a good idea becasue it can go from a 4/1 to a 12/1 fmu which makes for a good tuning tool.

lane

The small pulley is to take the place of the alternator(kinda). Your alternator is gonna go below the p/s, so the small pulley is there so that the belt routes high enough for the tensioner(passenger side next to the a/c) to tension the belt. The large pulley on the sliding bracket is to tension the belt going around the charger.

bEtUr4dRustang

I agree yes water has a very high specific heat however, like you said youself "1lb of h2o absorbs over 130000Btu's"...We are injecting tiny tiny amounts of water here maybe the unit to use would be grams or even miligrams. Thats not going to bring down the temperature of the intake charge very much. Considering a gallon of water/alcohol used in an injection system should last months, thats only 130000 btus removed over months and thats not really that much at a time.

Raiden

Well, with out my water injection, i have to take out a lot of timming in my chip due to detonation. I run 26deg total timming with out water injection. I can run full timming with the water injection unit. I did upgrade my water injection pump. I have no time slip comparison, however, it DOES make a difference! Even thought it's only a tiny amount. I usually run 40/60 water/methanol.

Raiden

Forgot to add, if I'm in the boost alot, it really drains the windshield resivor. Need a biger one! If you want to read a bit more on H2O injection, there's a ton of stuff @ the Grand National site.

Willie

iTrader: (1)

A picture is worth 1000 words:

Willie

iTrader: (1)

And speaking of water/alcohol injection, I've been using this for about four years. First with my SN-92 / SN-2000 and today with my D1SC. It was absolutely necessary with the Paxton because I did not use an intercooler with it. Without it, I could hear the detonation, even with only 6-psig boost. Without it, no audible detonation was heard.

Today with my D1SC and intercoolers, I'm able to run significantly more boost than with the SN-92. I'm up to 14-psig now. And I still use the water/alcohol. I have to disagree with the statements above that it does not significantly cool the intake charge. Please read an old post of mine where I publish real world results:

https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...threadid=36789

Since that info is somewhat old, let me add some new info. I have experimented scanning data at WOT with the water/alcohol off and on. Without it, my plenum air temps rise with every passing second of recorded data. If the temp is approximately 120 degrees, it rises to about 155 at the end of a 1/4-mile pass:

120
120
120
121
124
129
135
140
144
149
152
156

Yes, that's with intercoolers. It's much worse without IC's as was the case with my Paxton. I used to see plenum air temps in the low 200 range! On a succeeding 1/4-mile pass with water/alcohol with approximately the same air temp at the start of the run (120), my scanner has recorded the following plenum air temps:

122
122
120
117
111
106
100
97
95
95
95
95

My results have shown the cooling effectiveness of water/alcohol. In conclusion, based on my real world results, I would not recommend running a blower without an intercooler or water/alcohol. If you don't have an intercooler, I'd absolutely positively run water/alcohol.

Willie

icecold

listen to willie.search his old posts lots of good info there. and dont get the FMU it kinda looks like you have one in the pic but definatly dont spend more money buying one. you would be better suited to do to start chip burning with the money or do a 7749 computer swap and be able to ajust for boost.all the fmu will do is overtax your fuel pump and shorten it's life.and if you add an aux pump you will be spending another 200 at least.plus the 280 for the fmu. the 7749 swap costs approx 100-500 depending on new -used parts and if you are running speed density or mass air now.chip burning can be started for around 250 if you read traxions article linked at the top of the dyi prom page. dont step back to a fmu go foreward you wont regret it
pete

vortech305

Thanx willie Now i have 2 small questions about the water injection

1. What powers the water from the resavoir to the elbow? Is there a minature motor that comes with the kit or is it powered by the motor on the windshield washer resavoir?
2.How do u keep tabs making sure water and alchol is being run into the intake? Do i have to keep refilling the resavoir with 40%alcohol, 60 % water every time? Im a little confused

Raiden

The paxton unit comes with a small winshield pump that pumps the water, I went to the local fish store and showed them what i had. They gave me one that can be adjusted to gallons per hr. It was 25bucks and flowed a lot more water than the paxton unit. More is not always better, but mine is adjusted just a little more than the unit paxton supplied.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

So Willie, what are you running at 14psi? What are you using for engine management (ecm, injectors, fmu?...)?

Have you ever tried running back to back runs with say 100% water and then 50/50 and logging the temps? Unless you need the extra fuel that the alcohol gives you you should get more cooling that way (water has a much higher specific heat), and water will prevent detonation better (water is an antidetonant, where alcohol is just a high octane fuel).

Do you have any idea at what rate you're injecting water or how much you inject during a pass? At one point we worked out the #'s for getting an 80* drop with water injection in my brother's car and came up with needing to inject the water at 160#/hour at WOT, since that was way too much. We tried roughly 30#/hour and could not measure a temperature drop at all in the intake (as per the data logs).

mhaskell

Willie do you have pics of your sending units installed in the plenum? and your data logger? Thanks in advance,as an engineer I love the scientific approach

bEtUr4dRustang

I got my idea about actual cooling properties of water and alcohol from 83 Crossfire TA and a couple other posts i have read elsewhere...although cold hard numbers are quite hard to disagree with, the amount of water needed mentioned above is staggering.

Raiden

Dude,

Go to the Gran national board and do a search on the topic. There is TONS of stuff on h2o injection there!

Willie

iTrader: (1)

1. What powers the water from the resavoir to the elbow? Is there a minature motor that comes with the kit or is it powered by the motor on the windshield washer resavoir?

Mine is a simple kit that includes a reservoir, pump, nozzle, tubing and a Hobbs switch. It is powered by the 100-psig pump. The Hobbs switch is presently set to start injecting at 3-psig boost.

2.How do u keep tabs making sure water and alchol is being run into the intake?

I pre-mix the denatured alcohol and distilled water, then dump it into the reservoir.

Do i have to keep refilling the resavoir with 40%alcohol, 60 % water every time?

No, not EVERY time. My water reservoir is rather small because of space limitations. I'll have to measure capacity someday because I don't know how much it holds. The container is approximately 4" x 6" x 6". With it filled, it holds enough water/alcohol for more than six 1/4-mile passes at the track.

Willie

Willie

iTrader: (1)

So Willie, what are you running at 14psi? What are you using for engine management (ecm, injectors, fmu?...)?

I use the Superfueler. Please click on "SC Z!!!" in my sig, then on "Supercharger" for pics.

You see, my scanned data tells me I do not need additional fuel until about 8 psig boost. This means an FMU is out of the question because it raises fuel pressure from the onset of boost. This "feature" cannot be adjusted. Therefore, if I were to use an FMU, I would run extremely rich from 0 to 8 psig boost. I have my Superfueler adjusted to start injecting a small amount of fuel (12 percent duty cycle) through it's three additional injectors at 6 psig boost. At 14 psig, the three injectors are at 100 percent duty cycle.

Hint of things to come: I will be producing much more boost in the near future. I'm gearing up for this by replacing my 12-rib pulley system with a cog driven system -- no slippage. I am also reinforcing my blower bracket with additional support members to prevent ANY bracket flex under high boost. I will eventually be replacing my harmonic balancer with a big block unit for more front-end crank stability. Oh, and I will be replacing my 30 in/20 lb vacuum boost gauge with a 30 in/30 lb gauge. Does this tell you how much boost I will be creating soon???


Have you ever tried running back to back runs with say 100% water and then 50/50 and logging the temps?

I've never experimented with mixture ratios, although you have an excellent idea. hmmm.... maybe I'll try this someday. My data is with a 40 / 60 mix of alcohol / water.


Do you have any idea at what rate you're injecting water or how much you inject during a pass?

I do not know specifically. I believe the rate is controlled by the injector nozzle size. I use a #10 nozzle. I do not know if that correlates to 10 pounds per hour????


At one point we worked out the #'s for getting an 80* drop with water injection in my brother's car and came up with needing to inject the water at 160#/hour at WOT, since that was way too much. We tried roughly 30#/hour and could not measure a temperature drop at all in the intake (as per the data logs).

This is interesting. Let me ask though, what is the in-cylinder temperature? Or is this value assumed? Is it based on inlet air temp?

Willie

iTrader: (1)

Willie do you have pics of your sending units installed in the plenum?

I have three digital air temperature gauges. I have pics on my "Switches" link on my page above. It details where the sending units are. Now, as for the sending unit in the plenum, it is the stock piece.

The comparison I see in the air temps is between: The "third" digital gauge, which displays the temp in the intake tubing after the intercoolers and just before the MAF, and the stock air temp sending unit in the plenum. It's the stock piece that shows a drastic lowering of air temps when water is being injected.


....and your data logger?

It's an Auto X-ray.


Thanks in advance,as an engineer I love the scientific approach

Me too. It's really the only way to analyze.

Willie

Chris Ja

Guys I also just bought a supercharger off ebay. I purchased the Paxton SN2000. I am installing it on a 87 IROC and have to install the serpbelt system. I want to delete the A/C, Smog pump and tensioner on the right side of the engine. Now in looking at the engine pic from Paxton you don't need the tensioner on the passenger side. Is that correct. It looks like they use the one tensioner on the supercharger bracket? Am I right or wrong? If that is the case all you would need is a water pump with pulley, alt with pulley and powersteering pump with pulley? Am I correct in what I am saying. i hope so as that would make it alot easier. Looking at the pic again that looks like the power steering pump pulley? What do you guys think.

bEtUr4dRustang

Hey Vortech305!

Do you think i could get you to scan that manual for me ?

Thanks man