LETHALRACER

I want to use a World 427, the top end in my sig, and a comp hyd roller, and a 15lb Procharger D1sc. The grind I want to use is a 242/248@.050 .578/.599 on a 114 lobe sep. I want to make a minimum of 800hp at the crank. I know I would have to change injectors and add another Walbro 255 in tank. Would I have to go with bigger fuel lines? Would 50lb injectors be large enough with out a FMU. I don't want to use a FMU. I was thinking of going with 9.0:1-9.5:1 compression. Assuming the blower actualy puts out 15lbs. My goal is to get 650rwhp and run at least a 9.99@135+ in the 1/4. On pump gas. Do you guys think this is possible? If not what would be another way to spend nine grand and get the results I am looking for?

89ProchargedROC

427" with a D-1 is pushing it but should be doable

who the hell flowed your heads? Explain to me how they got 261cfm on the exhaust...LOL

B4Ctom1

I am a definite fan of the FMU having daily access to a W/B O2 dynojet. but, for HP that large and injectors that large, you will need a chip or aftermarket ECM (I dont say this often).

LETHALRACER

The heads were ported and flowed by Total Engine Air Flow in Bowling Green, Kentucky. They were flowed using a 1 7/8 round flow tube. TEA is responsible for many extreamly fast cars. The numbers are real. The were flowed on a Flow Pro at 28" of water on three seperate ocassions. Months apart. I have the charts but have been over this topic with sceptics so many times that it is pretty old now. If you want the best heads for your money give them a call. I can e-mail you the charts if that is necessary.

LETHALRACER

The flow charts are posted in the site at the bottom of my sig.http://www.msnusers.com/AFR210FlowCh...nw?albumlist=2

LETHALRACER

Does any one know how to get the site on the bottom of my sig as a link?
89Pro. Why is a D1 on a 427 pushing it. Isn't the Mo Town internals all forged? I know the block is strong enough.
B4C. I custom burn my own Proms but this will be a huge step on the learning curve. Do you think the injectors will support that kind of hp?

B4Ctom1

50#'ers? I would have to use the injector calculator, there is one at the accel EFI site and other sites. to make a link you use: [ U R L ] body of url link [ / U R L] or [ U R L = body of url link ] what ever name of link you want it to be [ / U R L ] I have used spaces everywhere on these two examples to keep it from recognizing it, but you wont. Tell the company you are getting the engine from what you are doing and let them make the determination about HP capacity of the components. The D-1 might need to be a D-1R, X or F-1 to get where you want to be more easily. if its going in a 3rd gen then you may want to contact ASSC about brackets they make for procharger for the larger blowers just for thirdgens.

LETHALRACER

I used a pretty accurate calculator at .55 BSFC. At 95% it said 55lb inj could support 800hp. If I turned the fuel pressure up to 50psi, 50's should support that number. I then could set my injector constant for 55lbs also.

RMK

Tom,

Do ASSC have a web site?

B4Ctom1

not that I have seen in a while. the stuff I saw of theirs was on some other racing/chassis/dragcar company named website.

89ProchargedROC

ASSC doesn't have a website.....

using a D-1 on a 427" motor, i dont think a D-1 would supply it with enough air

you'd be better off with less inches and the same blower to get VE up and make the power that way

To the guy with the head flow numbers....sorry but i'm a sceptic I wont believe those numbers unless i saw the flow test myself. Canted valve heads dont even flow that good

B4Ctom1

Thats the way Im going, I had to make some hard decisions or this project will go from a 4 year project to a 8 year one. I have a P1sc now and the D1sc conversion upgrade is about $1k. If I cant make the blower that much bigger then make the motor smaller. Either blower could never supply enough air for my "as designed" 415 cid engine, but the crank and rods werent ordered yet. I do have the block and pistons. The same comp height works out to a 3.25" crank and 6" rods for a 353 cid destroked 400. This also allows me to use a more reasonably priced performance head (not needing massive ports anymore). I will be using the P1sc (still smallish), but will upgrade with better pulleys after its up and running. intead of going D-1sc. after looking at the two blowers similar outputs it makes more sense to buy a D1sc originally but not to convert later for me. It may not be as powerful as a F-1 with a 415 but I dont have an F-1, so this combo seems so much more obtainable.

LETHALRACER

89Pro. I can't do any thing else to prove the head flow number to you. There are the charts and the graphs in black and white. But besides that point. Do you think I would be better off keeping the 383 and going with the D1. That would save me about $4,500. The reason I wanted to go with the 427 was to unshroud the intake valve and take full advantage of the head flow. Plus the added torque of the extra cubes. I will be pushing a 3,600lb car around. Chevy Rumble just put out an article where the made 762hp on a Vorteched and carbed 383 with AFR 195 heads and 7.3lbs of boost. They used the same cam I put in the original post. The heads only had the CNC port job from AFR. Does any one know what Tory Hess is running by way of blower?

StocRoc

iTrader: (1)

I think Tory is running the F-1

89ProchargedROC

F-1R

actually, the more i think about it....you should be ok with a D-1 but you might have to spin it pretty hard. Thats all i'm saying

this guy is making a lot of HP out of a D-1SC on a big block www.camarocj.com

LETHALRACER

The link doesn't work. I will search it later. I know you guys have alot more knowledge than I. So I trust and value your opinions. It seems to me that the volume of air put into the motor is more important than the boost. Meaning if you spin a P600 to 10*. It will only push "1,000cfm" but if you push a D1 to the same poundage it will push ''1,500cfm. Just an example of volume. Is this way off?

RMK

That's impressive.

Roughly how much do the F1 blowers come in at?

89ProchargedROC

sorry

www.camcojb.com

that should work

LETHALRACER

That car is insane. It makes me miss my 69 Camaro. Mine was Midnight Blue, with Arctic Whit racing strips and a black vinyl top. I wish I still had that car. I lost it due to a car fire.

89gta383

iTrader: (5)

You are way off on the fuel, LT1runner's car is running 17 lbs of boost on a 355, and he needed 48 lb injectors without the fmu. I think to feed a motor that size, you'd be looking at like an 83 lb injector, and the computer to run it since it will be low impedence.

If you ask me, you can run a 9.99 with what you've got by either spraying a 250 shot on it, or changing pistons to a dish and putting a blower on it with what you have now. No need to use a 427. Check out this dude's car, he is running high 9's and he tells about all the crap that he broke along the way:

http://para.noid.org/~lj/

LETHALRACER

I might try the TNT wet kit that is adjustable from 100-250hp first. I will see where that gets me. The kit is $650 and is rated at the tires. That should net me low tens. I just want all the power all the time. All of my runs are highway imprompto. I would have to get a remote bottle opener. I figure with all the safety stuff to run the bottle and not blow up my car should run me about a grand all said and done. I think if I do go with the blower I will up to the 396" crank. I just want to run a single digit on the street.

89gta383

iTrader: (5)

It's gonna take a lot more than 9 large to run 9.99 every pass down the track. You'll need a rear, full cage, tranny, etc.

There is nothing wrong with what you have now. Change pistons and put a blower on it.

LETHALRACER

I was more concerned with mph than trap speed. I need at least 650rwhp to go 138 in the quarter. If some one passes me after that they deserve it.

Kingtal0n

see this post:
<b>https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hreadid=144692</b>

instead of worrying about streetability though, get a drivetrain that will hook up (9" 4.11 slicks/ Th400 w/ T-brake)

O-ring the block, Run a bigger blower (420 holley / 6-71 weiand), and run a 200 shot of Nitrous. that will put you over 800 horsepower easy. it will also put you sub-10 seconds. and use a carb for easy tuning and its cheaper too.



oh, and you can do this all with a small block 350 too. but of course, the more cubes, in this case at least, the faster you will go.

LETHALRACER

It's has to be streetable and stock looking from the out side. That is the complicated part.

Kingtal0n

well if THATS the case...

got $$$?

Let me ask, if you say "stock looking" you cannot conceal drag-radials or slicks on the street. er... you DO plan on using some sort of "slick" dont you?

heh, ok all good and stuff. streetable 800 horses. yes. simple.
Ford 9" With 4.11's. 4l80E tranny with a 9.5"lockup 3000 stall and a T-brake.
theres your drivetrain... oh and avoid aluminum driveshafts...
as for the engine, of course, a solid foundation makes it go. 427? no prob. just dont expect a world of fuel economy, but then again, it wont be THAT bad. lets say, 8.5:1 compression and a specific "blower" piston with a reverse dome would work the best. Heads? No more than 210CC for the street... do plenty of port work on the exhaust side, and any "streetable" valve job you can think of. and dont even THINK about NOT O-ringing the block. bad idea. but you knew all this already!

now the fun part. you get to go EFI... but not just ANY EFI you get to use... somthing interesting. I would recommend (since I have experience with) Holley's MPFI with their ECU... now there are a million other ways to do it, but for simplicity's sake, i would say holley. (as well as price)... they offer quite a few setups, you could even use the Holley Stealth Ram; yes you can hit your 800 horsepower goal with the HSR. lets assume you tackle it eh?

So now you have a HSR with the nifty commander 950 ECU, serious gears and tranny, and an engine with some nice blower pistons.
now it gets better. ATI is the only way to go for full out-streetability + trackability. an ATI Intercooled "TPI" setup is perfect, it will bolt right up and go. yes get the biggest 3 core intercooler they offer, yes get the upgraded supercharger for 12-15 PSI of boost. this should put you somwhere between 650-750 horsepower with a 427 and proper induction setup, with the HSR too.

oh, it gets better. Since we have an intercooler our nitrous setup will provide the final -128* shot to finish off any chance of detonation. lets say, a simple 100 shot to start. why? well for one, we want the car to last on the street and that means as little drivetrain shock as possible. I know, the T-brake is goina do it in, but still... a small 100 (okay MAYBE 150) shot will put you over the edge, and into the wild zone. yes somwhere between 850-1000 horses will be available. the HSR is capable of a wet shot and you can hide it right in the throttle body.

'nuff said? Need more info? me too. Consult Dr. whats-his-name for more info.

or you can email me... Kingtal0n@aol.com

did i mention this will net you about... 18 MPG on the highway? and it all fits under the stock hood? heh.

LETHALRACER

I was thinking the 200-4R from Yank would be a better choice. Lighter and race proven. Take a look at my sig for all the other details you suggested. I have most of them coverd. I figured the 427 and just the D1sc would be more than enough for the 800hp I was looking for. You can make 600N/A on a 427 easy. I was going to try to use the GM computer and custom proms for the computer work. Hell eighteen mpg is more than I get right now. Stock looking just meant stock rims and body for the street. I have seen fifteen second posers with slicks and skinnys. I don't think any one pays attention to that stuff. Hoods seems to peak peoples interests for some reason. I figure my lumpy exhaust would get the most attention.

Kingtal0n

<b>200-4R </b>

Is about as strong as a 700R4 according to Dana from Pro-built.
Which isnt very strong at all....
but its worth a shot.

Greasemonkey

A built 200-4R will survive into the nines.

89ProchargedROC

then he doesn't know how to build them....a properly built 2004R will survive 900ftlbs of torque

it costs a lot to get it to handle it, but it will

SATURN5

A buddy is pushing 600 HP into a properly built 200 R4 without any problems. Its a black car with a "few" enhancements....


As far as injectors go, the SyTy guys are running +75Lb pph injectors on a reworked 749. Just need to change the injectors drivers to different ones and up the ECM1 fuse to 15 amp. May not be the way you want to go, just a cheaper option.
cheers, Bob

B4Ctom1

as a tranny builder and GN fan let me be the first to tell you, not that many passes and even fewer in the 8's, and thats with the best stuff. many GN racers run th350's and th400's as well as the JW re-bellhousing'd ford AOD's from Lentech.

Greasemonkey

I realize that. The farthest I would try to run a 200 would be high nines. I've seen a couple guys who seem to be doing okay in that area with the Buicks. They probably need freshened once a year depending on the use, but they do survive.

B4Ctom1

if you are willing to use good parts and do annual "freshening", then I guess I would have to agree.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

I need to learn more about these Lentec AOD's. Haveing rebuilt more then one 700r4 and AOD (these are the biggest POSs out there, nothing strong about them, somewhat a stupid design also), I'm amazed that even an AOD with all custom parts would be stronger then a 700 with a billet steel shell.

B4Ctom1

they unitize the coaxial style shaft that comes in them, and for some reason the diode sprag ( unlike the ones that come in 700's) they come with actually functions (having been used sucessfully for a few years now in cabs and policecars). they come with a transbrake option as well

PETE

iTrader: (1)

If you want a tranny to hold up to the abuse you are talking about yet give you decent gas mileage there are two options.

1. Get the 4l80 out of a full size pickup(prolly not gonna find one) or buy it new. Gm claims when built right 700lb/ft is no problem.

2.TH400 with a Gear Vendors overdrive(www.gearvendors.com) will last a while with good gas mileage. And you can lock it up in whatever gear you want.


As for the engine the 427 sounds cool but with that much exhaust volume(and since you are gonna rework the exhaust ports for the sc) why not throw a t-88 turbo on there. Will be more efficient and wont have to make more power to overcome the parasitic loss of spinning that positive displacement blower.

Just my o2

LETHALRACER

PETE. I would love to do the turbo but I don't have the resources to fab up a kit from scratch. As far as I know no one makes a kit for the third gen F body. I have tried to see if any one on line would sell on of their designs but they don't want to be responsible if stuff doesn't fit. I fully understand that. Would you go with a single T88 or twin T64 or 72's if you had the choice? With turbos I could keep my short block save for the pistons. That would save me four grand right there. As for the exhaust flow. No one believes what my heads flow now. I have posted the charts. Here is the link. http://www.msnusers.com/AFR210FlowCh...nw?albumlist=2 I don't know what they would flow if I actualy did some work to them. The port is so large now that I had to have the 1 3/4 LT's ported to fit them. They still need some work. I would spend more time on the intake if I did any more word to them.

PETE

iTrader: (1)

If those ports are so big now have they checked them for thickness? All may be lost if you start pushing boost through them and find it broke through the water jacket. I've seen ic hoses blow off before but with positive displacements there isn't anywhere for the air to go if something goes awry. Except out through a head gasket. I'm sure for the money you are spending you can find at least a log manifold(remember you only need one and fab a crossover for the otherstock manifold or header) and have it extrude honed to flow a decent amount. Just a thought.

LETHALRACER

The ports are pretty much the way they came from AFR. They were only smoothed to take out the roughness of the CNC machine. That hurt flow by the way. I am sure AFR leaves plenty of material for porting and the like.

Kingtal0n

<b>but with positive displacements there isn't anywhere for the air to go if something goes awry.</b>

thats not true anymore. The blowers weiand/holley make now come with "pop off valves" in the rear. how they work and if they work I dont know, just letting you know they are availble now.

IrocZS383

just my $0.02 cents.

If you run the crate motown 427, i'd pay close attention to the ring package. the rotating assembly is forged but the compression height on the piston is only 1". That means that the piston pin intersects the oil ring land and the rings are very close to the top of the piston. Not a very good situation with increased cylinder pressure and heat from a supercharger. Good Luck

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

You know, IrocZS383, logically, I agree with you, but real world, I don't think I've ever seen any evidence that the oil ring land being intersected by the pin has any effect on the durablility of the piston.

IrocZS383

thats not really the part that would concern me. The rings being so close to the top of the piston and the short compression height is what caught my attention. most stroker engines feature the piston pin intersecting the oil ring land lately. I just wouldn't think that the short piston and the ring package so close to the top wouldn't be very reliable or durable. like i said just my 2 cents.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

I would guess that that would depend on piston and ring land design. I don't know how much shorter the crown to top ring distance is on that piston, but it's been a serious trend to make it shorter since a little extra power/efficientcy/and even some claim detonation resistance can be found there and it seems that many builders are willing to take that risk compaired to the more traditional, even lower then normal traditional location for the top ring.

As far as I'm conserned, I'm with you, unless it's an all out, $$$$ effort that is going to get torn down 10x more often then most of us change oil I don't see the point in a boosted application. The fact is that the small % lost to locating the top ring to lower/safer location could be easily made up for with a tiny bit of extra boost.