bhaas

Running them on top was cake. The oil pan. Different story. The instructions for doing it on a supercharger make it sound so easy. Just run a punch through it till it's about 9/16" then tap. Ya whatever. That's If I wouldn't have had an air chisel I'd still be hammering that hole. It took me a good hour just to get it to where I could use the air chisel. Then I had to destroy a perfectly good slag hammer and hammer it the rest of the way to get it to size. That worked killer. Cut the chisel end off and hang onto the handle (Knuckle saver) and pound away. When I got it to size I was trying to run the tap in with a wrench. What a dumbass. After about a half hour of getting nowhere, I got the bright idea to run it in with a socket. Wow that was quick The pass side I think is gonna suck even worse. Damn starter. I used my useless line-loc install kit I got from Summit to run the top oil lines. Made me happy I bought it, and didn't return it. That was about a 45 minute job.

Brad...

http://12.229.137.41:3128/oil1.jpg
http://12.229.137.41:3128/oil2.jpg
http://12.229.137.41:3128/oil3.jpg
http://12.229.137.41:3128/oil4.jpg
http://12.229.137.41:3128/oil5.jpg
http://12.229.137.41:3128/oil6.jpg

craiger

Looks Sweet!:hail:

Twin_Turbo

iTrader: (25)

Dude, I seriously hope you aren't thinking about getting pressure from the front cam passage. That's the worst place to get oil pressure for turbos from. In another topic it was mentioned that any place where you can get oil from is fine but I disagree. Get pressure form the oil temp sender hole directly above the ol filter pad.

Here's how I have mine running:




Also, the return lines must be BIG and exit at least an inch above the oil level in the pan, a wise addition is a baffle in the pan like this:



Also there can be no low spots in the return line where oil can accumulate. I think with the place you selected the hole in mind this could be a problem.

If you don't do this, oil will not return to the pan, acumulate in the turbo and squirt out through the seals

Hope this helps you a bit

Marck

89ProchargedROC

No offense but it doesn't harm the turbos the least bit....my buddies twin turbo big block that makes over 1000hp has had no troubles with his oil pressure, or turbo oiling for YEARS. Dont tell someone to not do something if its just your "opinion".

Also, my other friends 87 GTA with a twin turbo motor is using the same thing and he has never had problems with oil getting to his turbos and his motor makes over 600hp

vrooom305

Do my eyes decieve me I see two BIG turbos and two carbs

Twin_Turbo

iTrader: (25)

Well, if you lose oil pressure anywhere before that your turbo's will be junk. Imagine a large oil leak at one lifter or so, you'll lose pressure there FAST!

I don't give a rats a$$ about who's friend has what, I'm trying to give my thoughts on this. If you play it safe get the oil from a point nearest to the pump, simple as that. Placing it further just adds opportunities for oil pressure loss.

vrooom, do you mean me? That's 2 turbo's & 4 double carbs.

Marck

Jester

Don;t get the oil from that tap at the front of the block. Get it from the back of the motor..just above the filter. I had problems with it bleeding off pressure from the passengers side lifters and causing them to collapse.

johnsjj2

I'm glad the filter area is better. I don't have a hole in the front like Jester, or Brad do. I thought I was going to be the odd one out by using the pressure sender hole.

bhaas

Well that really sucks. I just got it plumbed. I've tried to get that fitting off by the oil filter a long time ago and it wouldn't come out. I think I stripped it. Pissed me off. If I have to move it there I'm not gonna be very happy about that either. Damn. Well I gotta try it where it's at first and see. Thanks all.

Brad...

89ProchargedROC

very true, but he has been building turbo motors before turbos were even accepted as been worth while to build and has had never had a problem. You can do what you want, but i'm just saying that it works and works fine.

B4Ctom1

I see four carbs

Twin_Turbo

iTrader: (25)

The system is a copy of the moon crossram (it's a custom cast manifold), the carbs are Dellorto DHLA 45 tri-jet carbs (rare pieces, 3rd jet for high rpm enrichment or boost, somewhat similar to the DHLA40H used on Lotus Esprit turbo only bigger, these can withstand a proven 30psi of boost), something like a Weber 45DCOE only a little more refined (but both are excellent carbs)

The turbo's are 2 RotoMaster T04B-V2's w/ rotomaster race wastegates (spring adjustable, 2 ports for boost dial)

Marck

Twin_Turbo

iTrader: (25)

Does your block have a plug (or 2) in the rear end rail? (FI cars have the oil pressure sender/safety switch there)

B4Ctom1

DELLORTO's! Holy Crap! I've driven cars that cost less than those carbs!

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

Bhaas… Looks good, again, going way faster then anything that I’m doing (I haven’t touched mine for over a week).

Like I said before, I’ll probably pick up my oil from the same fitting on my engine, assuming that I can get around all the other plumbing in roughly that area (TPI engines are pretty busy through there). WRT to the doubt about that as a supply, almost every serious turbocharged SBC that I’ve ever seen has the oil supply plumbed from there and I’ve never heard of a problem with it. I’d leave it and consider moving it if you start seeing evidence of lifters collapsing, but I doubt that 2 T3’s would even flow enough oil to make a measurable change in pressure anywhere in the oil system.

FAQman, interesting thoughts, but to be honest, if like you said, you saw the other thread (I actually posted something similar a looong time ago) and thought you had some useful information contrary to what was being discussed it’s kinda rude not saying anything till after someone goes and does it….

Bhaas, back to you… what made you put the drain back where vortec puts it? Seems like completely the wrong place for a turbo setup with the turbos mounted forward and you know that there is going to be a bunch of hot exhaust plumbing to get around. Second, I’m guessing that you went with vortec’s size also? That may not be a big enough hole, since most superchargers don’t whip up the oil as much and are not as sensitive to a little pressure in the return (when turbos smoke because of it, it happens through the turbine, which a supercharger doesn’t have).

On the passenger side, I say you go through the fuel pump mount like we were talking about before. BTW, I don’t remember if I ever cleared this up in the other thread, but the bolt hole that goes through is one of the ones in the front of the boss that is used to mount the smog pump from the factory. If you leave it out you’ll be dribbling oil all over the place. My original point was that in a pinch you could open that up some and run the return through it.

Twin_Turbo

iTrader: (25)

I read that thread after I replied, I drop in now & then and don't read everything here.

Where did I say I read that other thread? I'm confused here

bhaas

Having to work sure is cutting into my turbo project. 83, you don't think that hole is gonna be big enough? It was tough enough just getting that hole to that size. After I put that hole there I was wondering if that was in the wrong place. If I have to I'll make another one closer. Does oil pressure build up in turbos? Or does it just kinda flow through? I'm also having second thoughts about how thin that pipe is I use for my exhaust. I might redo those if after I start it up and it turns red or somethin. I'm just thinking they're too thin. Well anyway. I'm gonna focus on the oil lines today and worry about other stuff later. I'm also gonna run water to them. That's looking like a nighmare right now to, but I'll figure it out later I guess. Also, do I really need wastegates? Wouldn't a blow off valve pretty much do the same thing? I've been looking at wastegates on E-Bay and most of them say they're good to about 350-400 HP Well I almost got that already on my motor and wastegates are spendy. I can afford them but would rather spend the money somewhere else, like on gas or something. I got today off and Fri-Sun off so I should get a lot more done this week.

I don't have anything in that bolt hole and nothing is leaking. You mean that bolt hole goes right into the oil? And all I'd have to do is drill it out? If I could just drill it out maybe I could run both lines to it. But I'd be worrying about shavings getting into the oil from drilling. If I'm getting this right that is. Also, if I use that block off plate for an oil drain can I use my stock intank fuel pump for my carb? What kind of (boost referenced regulator) would I need for that? Or would I need to buy an inline pump and forget about the stock one. Thanks. You've been a great help on this. I appreciate it.

Brad...

Greasemonkey

You need a wastegate. Why don't you just use the elbows that came with your turbo's?

bhaas

The elbows won't fit. Not enough room where I've got them. I wish I could use them. They're in great shape to.

Brad...

Greasemonkey

Would they work if you cut them in half or so and welded a pipe onto that?

bhaas

Nope. Cutting them in half won't work. I wish I could use them. Got the drivers side line ran. The only straight part is the brass fittings. About 2 1/2 inches maybe, shouldn't be enough to back it up. I did have to make another hole. Damn it. On the pass side I'm gonna use the block off plate if I can ever find it. Been looking all over for it. Might have to buy another one.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

Well, I can’t really tell what size it is from the hole, but I’m guessing that you did it straight out of the vortech directions, which will be too small. I’m hoping to run ¾” hose for my drains. I wouldn’t run anything with smaller then about a ½” inside diameter in the drains (I know, that sounds huge). As a point of reference, the ford setup uses the smallest return of all the factory T3 setups that I’ve seen, the Saabs using some of the larger ones (3/4” the whole way). I know someone who has experience with T3’s from a bunch of apps (mostly saabs, but also fords, Volvos and nissans) and swears that the turbo’s life span before it is leaking is related to how big that return is.

WRT to oil pressure in turbos, I’ve heard all sorts of ‘it needs ____” statements, but from the guys that hold the patents on the bearing and bearing housing shape designs it seems that they don’t actually even need 10psi at full boost. On T3’s (and most others), the oil enters through a fairly small orifice and is forced through to passages to the front and rear bearings. There it gets whipped up (so it’s many times its original volume) and it drains out by gravity. Any restriction in the drain line will act as a trap and cause the oil froth to back up, which will back up into the turbos and cause smoking (same with backpressure/blowby in the crankcase…). You should have no measurable pressure or restriction in the drain line.

Are you talking about the 2” that you made the ‘log’ out of? To start with, isn’t it much heavier then the rest, like the stubs coming from the flange? Even if some of it does get red hot, I doubt that it will be the whole thing and specifically the sections where the welds are (possibly opposite them on the outside wall since you don’t really have a transition there), so it’s not going to fall apart. The parts of that that would worry me is that first, you’ve got all the weight hanging off much smaller stubs, leaking at the welds (not picking on your welds, but I have noticed that even perfect looking welds have a tendency to find leaks under pressure, usually at points where 2 welds overlap), and finally I’m not sure if you left the stubs sticking out inside the log, but if you did I’m thinking that you’ll have some thin metal sticking out in a hot exhaust stream where if it breaks off it will go through the turbine.

I really doubt that you’ll have a problem with the log part before the rest (don’t take that as I expect that you’ll have problems with the rest either) unless it’s made of some really crappy steel. I think overall, if you add some external supports to the turbos those manifolds will have about the same life span as a lot of headers…

Relative to the rest of the plumbing this is trivial. Just splice them into the heater lines. Water runs through them all the time, they’re the right size and easy to move around. I haven’t firmly decided if I’m going to connect mine. The bearings used in the T3’s don’t need them, so it is optional. What running them does give you is that you won’t be as likely to get coking in the oil passages around the bearings, especially at shutdown. I don’t know of any other advantages, and from the information out there coking is a non issue with decent synthetics and extremely unlikely with some of the better, modern conventional oils.

Wastegate – relieves exhaust pressure before the turbine to control turbo speed (most are boost controlled so they have the side effect which most people use them for of controlling your boost level)
Blow off or Bypass Valve – relieves the pressure spike created in the intake tract between the compressor and throttle plate when the throttle slams shut while the compressor is still spinning. It’s arguable if they actually do anything necessary in reasonably lightly boosted turbo applications.

You can probably see that they do different things here. Can you build a setup that works without a wastgate? Sure. 2 main ways to do it:
- size the turbine so that the most boost that could ever be achieved does not exceed what you’re looking for (which your .63 turbines on a 350 are not, you’d probably be looking at .82 or 1.08 turbines to do that. Without a wastegate your turbos will spin up till you max out the compressors, which may work eventually but you’ll probably blow something up in tuning it. If you’re engine is making around 400hp now, I’d bet that with these turbos that will happen around 650-750hp at about 15-18# boost)
- put a restrictions in the intake or exhaust which will limit the total boost that you can see. This could be something as simple as a restrictive air filter (I know someone who just last week was trying to figure out why he could only get 11psi out of a big honking turbo, pulled his air filter off and was suddenly seeing 19psi with no other changes), small down pipes, restrictive mufflers, small intake or exhaust ports… The only advice here is that if it were me and I was going to go this route I would do it in the exhaust, since an exhaust restriction will limit turbo speed and boost, where an intake side restriction will limit only boost and will still allow the turbo to over speed.

OK, if you look under the alternator you should see 2 bolt bosses sticking out of the front of the fuel pump boss. One of them goes straight through to the passage inside (old timers trick for installing the fuel pump drive is to use a longer bolt through that hole to hold the drive in place while you assemble the rest). Is it a good idea? I don’t know, it would involve permanently modifying the block and if you ever needed that bolt boss you’d probably have to work out some kind of threaded sleeve in there…

You should be able to use the intank pump if you want, but I have no idea if it will be able to pump enough volume (the requirements are much lower then with FI since you don’t need nearly the pressure. You’ll need a carburetor style bypass regulator and you’ll need to set it up to be boost referenced. You’ll probably also have to put a check valve and a bleed in the line if there is any chance that vacuum will effect it because your vacuum should greatly exceed the fuel pressure that you’ll need for the carb. WRT to specific brands you’ll have to look around, I’ve never used any of them, but I think that there might be a reasonably priced Moroso one out there (I know that they have one that will go low enough to work well with a GM TBI which operates at almost those pressures (9-12psi)).

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

That's what I took:
to mean. Oh well, don't worry about it. Sorry...

On a different subject, any more details/pictures on your setup? I'm specifically curious about the exhaust manifolds, they look rather unique (I tried going to your web site bit it was a link to the crossfire vault... haven't been there for a while but used to hang out there before the new server).

Twin_Turbo

iTrader: (25)

The exhaust manifolds are custom made pieces, I didn't like the banks ones where the wastegate sticks out in front so a guy in Finland cast these puppies.

Here's a pic of them

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

Those are pretty cool (actually, you've kinda got to put those pics together with the earlier one to see how nice the packaging ends up)... how did you find someone to cast a set of manifolds and what did it run?

what chassis is that setup for?

Twin_Turbo

iTrader: (25)

You can see the stuff on the crossfire server, our port 80 problems are solved.
http://www.crossfire.homeip.net

The guy only made these exhaust manifolds (1 pair)



and 1 intake manifold, moon crossram style







The guy also made my pop-off valve




It's going into an 1982 Corvette, sorry no f-body (I hang around here because the conversation on power adders is more interesting here than on the corvette boards, there most people are only interested in originality)

Marck