Blazer406

Ok.... If I am really trying to save some change on this low buck TT kit....... Can you use just normal exhaust manifolds (possibly the sanderson QP1000)

http://www.sandersonheaders.com/page...um/qp1000a.htm

and turn them upside down and modify them to accept a turbo? Thes cast iron manifolds should be plenty durable and decently inexpensive (compared to custom stainless tubular turbo headers) I just wondered what was the HP potential for such a setup....... or at what pump gas HP level these things become boat anchors.


I am still considering 2 stock buick GN turbos and the exhaust headers/manifolds are going to be a PITA. I have considered a log style tubular manifold as another possibility. They wouldn't be near as hard to make as equal length tubular header manifolds. I want to stay as cheap as possible without sacrificing too much HP. My initial goal is 500 RWHP with 2 stock GN turbos on a 383 ci motor on pump gas.


Whatcha think?

P.S. I am a mechanical engineer as well as a gearhead..... that is a dangerous combo. I have the mentality that anything is possible with some proper planning and time! My biggest problem is money!!!! :-(

TheCamel

I was looking at the low buck approach to making my own as well, and there are options, take a look at the following links and see what you can work with.

http://www.grapeaperacing.com/GrapeA...ID=14&confID=1


http://www.grapeaperacing.com/GrapeA...aro/turbos.cfm


These two links should answer some of your questions on the building of the headers. I am doing the same thing myself due to lack of a multi-million dollar budget and parts availability in my location (Japan)

The more you research this all the more you will find there are folks out there that have tried just about everything.

Sean

89ProchargedROC

---make it out of steam pipe....works well

Flowed enough air to make two T04bs with H-trim trap 144mph in a second gen camaro big block 454

rest of pics here:

http://members.telocity.com/~89proch...oc/camaro.html

LIL QIK

iTrader: (1)

Just so you know, the Grapeape headers are a nice piece. Unfortunately they won't work in a thirdgen. I bought a set and there are conflicts on both sides of the motor. He built those for the second gen. On the thirdgen the drivers side requires you to lose the power brakes and the passenger side hits the shock tower. This is not to say that you couldn't modify them to work though.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

Man, nice headers/manifolds 89ProchargedROC.

I've looked into a few sets of manifolds, doesn't look like GM ones will work. When you turn them upside down they get in the way of the spark plugs. For that matter, the 2 sides let out in different areas, and if anything, if you were going to put the outlets in different places you'd want them the opposite of what you end up with.

I have seen one done in a 3rd gen where the guy cut up something like 3 manifolds for one side and 2 for the other and rewelded them, but man was that ugly.

TheCamel

You really know how to make a man cry, LOL after looking at the pics of your engine in place I see what you are talking about. I guess i am back to the drawing boads myself again


TC

LIL QIK

iTrader: (1)

Sorry Camel,

Just wanted to let ya'll know due to the fact I know a lot of people are interested in those headers. Now keep in mind that I'm sure with a little modification, they could work but I'm pretty sure you would have to lose the power brakes. I thought you already had some accel manifolds or something like that.

TheCamel

no the deal fell through now I gotta build my own again, oh well. I will have the rest of your money here shortly though, waiting on a turbo kit i have to sell, thought it would be here by now.

TC

Bobalos

Now THATS what I am talking about. Simple & to the point. big motor lots of air & lots of Fuel. Do you know any more about this guys setup? What were the times, the MPH is pretty darn good.

BW

a73camaro

I did this for a boat with shorty headers. Tall valve covers may not work with certain brands of shorty headers. No turbo (note the supercharger) but you get the idea.



If you could get two manifold from a SBC truck (both exit from the back of the engine, then filp 'em, I don't see any reason why it wouldn't work. You could have them exit up or down.

89ProchargedROC

with old T04bs with .50 a/r compressor housings, 54mm wheels (H3-trim), little tiny 2 3/4" inlet and 2" discharge.....at 15psi the car went 10.14 @ 140 (not 144) with a bad TC. Couldn't build any boost on the transbrake

Those turbos you see there are T04s again with a PTE compressor housing that is .55a/r with a 3" inlet and 2.5" discharge with 70mm wheels in them coupled with 1.15 exhaust housings......

Car is just about sold right now. Wrapping up the sale with minor odds and ends stuff

Anything else you'd like to know?

Bobalos

did he have the pass side turbo coming back over to the left side to enter the IC?

What was done to the motor?

10.14 is a bit slow for 140 mph, smells like it came out of the hole like a dog & then came on like a monster

BW

Bobalos

Does he have another one for sale? a guy could get used to low 9's

BW

89ProchargedROC

notice where i said "with a bad TC". TC meaning torque converter......it wasn't building boost on the transbrake and also not working correctly period....

if the sale doesn't go through, come up with about $12,000 and its all yours

Bobalos

I got it. that is what I was talkin' about

$12K sounds like a pretty good deal to me for a 9 Second car. Your in the Chicago area right?

BW

89ProchargedROC

Yup, actually its an 8 second car

i live about 10minutes from the O'hare airport and the owner is about 10-15 minutes from me

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

Some '92 350 truck manifolds are one of the manifolds that I checked and that won't work. First they don't both exit at the back of the engine, the passenger side exits forward some like f-body manifolds (for that matter most modern SBC engines). The real problem is that if you're looking at the manifold from the side it is shaped like a flat lowercase 'm' and if you flip them over, the tops of the 'm' completely cover the area that the plugs are in, more then other manifolds.

Bobalos

Any idea what he made the headers out of? I would say mild steel considering the rust on the flanges.

BW

89ProchargedROC

schedule 40 steam pipe

HEEEAVY

Bobalos

Really?????? I would not have guessed. did he coat them afterwords? Do you know if it wieghs any more than cast iron?

I love the low buck aproach. I find it awesome that he is in the 8's with parts from Home Depot. makes me think twice about SS headers & Inconel & all that stuff. He obviously spent his money on the right parts.

BW

89ProchargedROC

Yes it has been coated

just to clarify some things....

the car hasn't run an 8 second pass YET

but it has all the parts to do it and it just needs someone to drop some weight out of the car and turn the boost up high

When it ran the 140mph trap speed it weighed 3900lbs and had small 58mm wheels in little .50a/r housings with a tiny 2 3/4" inlet with a 2" discharge

The new turbos have 70mm wheels in a .55a/r housing with a 3" or 4" inlet with a 2.5" discharge.

They are actually PTE turbos.....if you look them up i'm sure they are good for almost 650-675 per turbo MAYBE

So take some weight out and turn up the boost and it has 8 second potential.....

Another tid bit of info.....it has a whole bunch of stock stuff on it:

iron heads
iron waterpump
hydraulic FLAT TAPPET cam

its a cool car and if i wasn't so into my project i'd buy it and make it run the number its capable of

Bobalos

Cool, thanks for the information. I would be interested to know more about the engine. Displacement & cam specs in particular.

BW

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

Weld els/steam pipe is available in different scheduals (thicknesses) and materials (steel, stainless, aluminum)...

89ProchargedROC

notice above i said 454, cam isn't large but i dont know figures off hand

a73camaro

On a '88 GMC 2x4, both manifolds exit toward the back. I never tried to flip 'em, so I was only speculating that they would work.

Bobalos

FWIW, I think that the CC2's are a better choice, they are not as long & would not put the Turbo's up into the hood. Check out the length.
http://www.sandersonheaders.com/pagesbypartnum/cc2.htm

BW

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

maybe, but if you look at the dimentions they won't clear the stock heater box...

Bobalos

Heater Box? whats that? I never heard of no heater box thingy. I heard of a guy down here that had one in his car, but that only lasted for a few weeks, until he ripped it out.

BW

Balael6

Wow, the headers these guys make solve my problem of not continuing with my project of nowhere to turn for the headers! THanks for posting this! Now i'm almost ready to start bolting everything on.

Procastinator of jyturbo project... but no more...

pj

B4Ctom1

I talked to the guys at turbo technology about interest in 3d gen kits/manifolds but I dont know if I convinced him of the overwhelming interest. please help by telling them you are interested (beg) email at turbo@wa.net

Black Knight

Wasn't somebody supposed to bring their car over to Musclecar technologies to see if their twin turbo headers would fit?
If this never happened or is never going to happen than count me in on the list for turbo tech.

Bobalos

Been there, Done that, He is NOT interested. I guess that he is making SOO much money that he does not want to break into a new market, even when someone else (myself) offers to foot the bill for R&D.

Good luck.

BW

B4Ctom1

Through my business I meet performance industry connections every day. I just want to let you guys know that when I talk to turbo company guys I am forever putting the bug in their ear about a GM 3rd generation F-body kit. I add that even if all they make are the manifold/manifold(s) that they would sell-sell-sell. I truly believe that the 5.0 market will eventually sink. It is a basic tenant of economics. The diversity of having a few GM products will save some of these companies. Just look at the 5.0 market; it is inundated with look alike products; some companies are farming out production to overseas producers. The result will be lower and lower prices and quality. I believe that this could be the way that the 5.0 ford market ends, not with a bang but with a whimper. The import market is even more sensitive because although it has its die-hards (most were there before and will be after) it is at the whim of the popular culture. Like music, or movies; “here today gone tomorrow” is the basic tenant here. I need total V8 production numbers of the whole 3rd generation line to give them some idea of how many are probably available for figuring a probable customer base. With this info I can begin to show them what kind of money they could make.

bhaas

TT is making big money. I live up the street from them. They are quite busy. My friend takes his truck there. They do some nice work.

Brad...

P.S. Thinking of the Twin Turbo project myself. Looks like fun.
I'll probably buy a header kit and make my own. How hard can it be???

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

You know, the 3rd gen f-body market looks like a great, largely untouched market, but there is a problem.

I've looked at the situation, measured it out, know what will fit and work well and have the ability to do the work (although I couldn't offer pretty TIG welding, but if it came down to it I also could just tack them and I know of someone that would tig it for not that much more then the supplies would cost me). I would even be tempted to try it (have looked into it and had a longer discussion on another list about it).

Here is the problem, profit. In the discussion most mentioned what price they'd be willing to pay, and even inflating those amounts by a little bit, I found that it's just not there. Turbo headers for Hondas would not only be much simpler but you'd only have to build one, and the amazing thing is that I actually had 2 guys offer to let me use their cars as guinea pigs and they would still pay me 2x the highest amount that any 3rd gen guy said that they'd be interested at (for roughly 1/3-1/4 the work).

And that is the case with most parts. Notice that what is available for 3rd gens almost entirely fits the categories of either it costs pennies on the dollar to produce or they fit other cars. On the whole, 3rd gen f-body owners are not willing to spend the $$$. I mean, look at this thread, not only are we looking for something that doesn’t really exist, but at the same time we still want it cheap…

I mean realistically, what would you think was a fair price?

Bobalos

fair price for what? I think that for $800 for a 304, Log style Single setup with cross over is a fair price & I think that $1000 for a log style TT setup made out of 304 would be fair.

If someone was really wanting to make them in mass for the lowest possible price they need to be sand cast out of iron (manfolds like the Accell ones of yester year). but that takes the resources of the Accell's or Banks' to pull off.

Personally, I think that a log style TT setup (like the one on this 75 Camaro) is a cost effective way to run fast. heck this guy did it with sched 40 pipe & is running 8's. thats pretty fast if you ask me.

BW

B4Ctom1

they seem to be the most helpful and involved turbo places I have had the pleasure of dealing with. the guy stayed late one night to have me all him and tell him if a fitment conflict was resolved. you cant even get ahold of incon, TDC seems very nice too, but they like many others are heavily invested in the ford market and hopfully wont pay badly if the market peters out. as a post script I would like to mention that on all the turbo kits installed, some "not usually a problem" modifications were required to the principal parts of all the turbo kits I have installed. but I have never needed to cut, grind, or weld on a single supercharger kit I have installed.

2rods

Why hasn't someone used square tubing for the manifolds? This would be so easy to do. Just plug the end, weld a flange to the other end for the turbo, some careful layout and drilling for the exhaust ports and maybe install spacer tubes inside so the tube wouldn't get crushed when bolting to the head and your done. You probably woudn't have to mill it flat as the only welding is on the ends. The only problem I can see is the tube would have to be 2 1/2", which may be a little large but those log manifolds out of pipe look to be 2.5-3" and they worked for him. What do you guys think?

B4Ctom1

the idea has some merits, other than the bolting it right to the head part and the milling part. what you propose is reffered to as a "log" style manifold albeit a square log. some people are so desprate to turbo they may actually consider ductape also.

2rods

What's wrong with the bolting it right to the head part and the milling part? probably wouldn't need milling but if it did 1 quick skim and your done. Do you think the tube would be too close to the head?

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

I know of someone running a similar setup on a single turbo dodge dakota. In his case he took a flange and welded a box over the ports (easier on the dodge since the bolt pattern doesn't get in the way) and then welded on an inlet (which connects to the stock manifold via a crossover pipe under the engine) and an outlet that mounts the turbo.

It runs fine, last I heard he was running low 12's (not bad for a truck and the small TO4 that he's using).

You'd want to weld your box stock to a real flange and then get the flange milled flat (the welding will warp it slightly). A flange that will be reliable for a turbo setup will be 3/8" or thicker, where your box tubing will only have a wall of .120" and it will not be perfectly flat.

B4Ctom1

yes, the header flange welded to the tube would be a good idea because simply bolting the tube to the head, it is not rigid enough and would warp from the bolting alone.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

Here's a pic of the thing: