MattODoom

iTrader: (1)

The way I understand it, basically the VE works by doing (F29+F30)*F77.

So my question is, since F29 only goes to 4k rpms, why not just zero out all of the values under 4k in F30 and only use F30 for rpms beyond F29's range?

gta324

I put the same value all entries in F29, then Use F30 like a reg Ve-table.

I think I have 20 or 30 in F29 now.....

/N.

ty1295

1 reason is each table can only go to 100 VE, but added they can be more.

the 4k rpm limit is a limit in $58. With the work we have done on $59 that limit doesn't exist anymore though.

gta324

I know I have read somewhere that F29+F30 must be less than 100 ? I think it was on some sy/ty site.......

But maybe its not true then?

Maybe time to test the $59 again.......

/N.

MattODoom

iTrader: (1)

Well I wish I could go to $59 but they FUBAR'd me and made it only work with 3-bar MAPs.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

I was on that site looking for specifics, and it seemed like 3 BAR MAP was the only MAP sensor supported with the $59, I too would like 2 BAR support. WOuld it really be that difficult to have a $59 code with 2 BAR?

Maybe I should ask this over there.

ty1295

Yep, it does only support 3 bar map. But that doesn't mean you HAVE to use all 2 bars of boost. The main VE table now has more resolution than even a stock 2bar does.

So the only thing to gain woudl be saving a few guys from buying a $65 sensor and adding a whole other layer of support/code/confusion.

New XDF, new ADS, check box to select between the 2 maps, etc.

The team just decided instead of spending resources on 2 maps, to do things like spool up mode, closed loop wideband, and many more features not even attacked yet.

turbodig

It's not so much the code; it's the fact that all the tables/constants are scaled for 3 bar, as are all the XDF files. It would be trivial to reverse the 3 bar map calculation in the code, but lotsa work to fix the other stuff.

Early on, we discussed having an option to switch between 1, 2, and 3 bar.
This could be done, but you'd have to have entirely different bins for each MAP type. And, separate tunerpro XDFs.

Personally, I don't see why the resistance to using the 3bar sensor... is it cost?

I've run $59 on several <15 psi vehicles, and it works fine. Quite good, in fact. I'm actually planning on trying it on a TBI in an old Merc, which is an NA car... we'll see how that goes.


There's a very common misconception that there isn't enough resolution in the 3bar sensor to run properly at idle, etc. From our experience, that's not the case.

I'm certainly open to adding the functionality, but I can't speak for the other guys... that's a lot of work to chew on. If somebody else wants to volunteer to convert the xdf files, we'd welcome the effort.

Later,

Dig
code59.org

MattODoom

iTrader: (1)

Could be? I got my 2bar for $15 shipped. I dont want to run out and buy a 70+ 3bar when ill never run over 2bars, its just a waste.

I guess I just didnt understand why they took a sy/ty bin and reworked it so that it does not even work on the original vehicle it was intended for without a MAP swap? I figured it would be 2 bar with an optional 3 bar bin for those who ran more boost.

skwayb

Well the reason we did it was most Sytys were right at the 15 psi limit stock. If it overboosted for some reason, no more fuel was added by the ecm and KAAABOOOOM.. anything above 15psi the ecm still thinks it is 15psi so it won't add any more fuel. So Sytyer's moved to 3 bar chips and maps in late 2000 just for this reason. These vehicles were right at the limit from the factory and this was just a safety factor.

The resolution difference really isn't that much. 315kPa/256 = 1.23 kPa per A/D value for 3 Bar. 200kPa/256 = .78kPa per A/D value for 2 Bar. .5kPa at the same A/D value isn't gonna make that much difference since .5kpa is 0.072 psi. Not that much to worry about. Just sounds like a lot when you talk about it in kPa values. I use to think the same thing until I did the calculations to PSI.

I did all the XDF work on 59. I have a hard time enough keeping the changes between the Full XDF and the Simple XDF synced up much less a 2 Bar Version. So if we did a 2 Bar version I would definitely look for some help.

It isn't a small task to switch everything back to 2 Bar in it. But it can be done. Heck a quick search and replace for 1.23 * X + 2.2 in the xdf with .0781 * X + 8 would get it back to 2 bar for the formulas. But it is all the table headers, max/mins that would become a pain in the XDF along with the code changes Dig would have to do to support 2 bar again.

If lots of people wanted 2 Bar then we would probably look into doing it.....but so far not many have said much about it.

ty1295

If it is purely a cost thing, I can understand to a degree.

On the other hand we are giving away this information, chip, for free.

I guess to me if $60 is preventing you from moving to the new code that is a personal choice.

And as Paul said the syty left the factory at 15psi maxing out the 2 bar sensor. I suspect it was limited to 15psi due to the sensor. Any syty owner that understands the truck will run the 3 bar if for nothing else than safety factor, 99.9% of those that install a chip run more boost.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

Just curious, should we move this dicussion over to 59.org, or continue it here, I have some input on this, but don't want to clutter up a thread that is not exactly started to discuss code59.

skwayb

That is correct. F29+F30 can't be more than 100. We have a flag in $59 so you can Turn F30 and just use the new F29x for VE so you can see when you are getting close to 100 VE limit. Plus we increased the RPM and MAP size of the F29x Table. F30 was there really because the original F29 table topped out at 4000 RPM. The only way to add more VE above 4K was the F30 Adder table. This was fixed by making the F29x table go to 6400 RPM.

skwayb

Lets keep it here for now..... More discussion with more eyes is better :-)

MattODoom

iTrader: (1)

So, I can zero out all the sub 4k values of F30 and just use F29 and the upper realms of F30 as my VE table and that will help me a little to visualize where im at in regards to 100%?

skwayb

*** THREAD HIJACK MODE ENABLED ****

The new fuel table is from 0 - 315 kpa and 0 - 6400 RPM. You don't even need to use the F30 table at all.

This should table should say it all:




Compare these 2 tables.... tell me which one is better?

F29




F29x


Hopefully those pictures help show you the difference, plus $59 has closed loop wideband control, Output to a knock Gauge to see the actual number of degrees (I am testing this now and it works damn good) bunch of other features in the works like Alky Injection/Nitrous control, 8100 RPMs etc.....

Stroll on over to this thread to see the current features of V18.
http://www.code59.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=594

Currently we are testing the changes Turbodig has done in V25 of the code. V25 has Spool Up mode, Knock Gauge output, MAT correction for WG init DC, etc... Not sure when this will be out.

So we are continually working on making it better. Your input is needed if you would like us to add more features/changes. Please go over to www.code59.org and let us know what you think, like to see, etc...

We are trying to make this the Super $8D version of $58 for boost. I know junkctlr is working on a boosted $8D but that would require us MAP users to go to MAF... Not sure everyone with SyTYs would but can't wait to see his code and how it runs when he is done.

*** HIJACK OFF *** :-b

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

skwayb:

If I am understanding those graphs correctly it looks to be that there is about equal amounts of points in the same 100 kpa range (looks like 9 in each), with added points beyond that in 29x.

Keep in mind, I should still be considered green to this, even though I've been reading about it, on and off for a few years now, and have only really used an SCT product on an Escort, did a decent job. I haven't been able to afford the equipment until now, my Ostrch is on it's way to me as I type this.

For myself on the whole MAP sensor issue, I would like to use a 2 BAR MAP, on at least one vehicle of mine, since well, I have a couple, and it will probably never see over 15 PSIG boost, I may never even see over 10 PSIG, so the expense seems a little over kill. A 3 BAR MAP sensor is not always easy to find, at least locally, I have a real reservation ordering something online, since I've ben burned a few times now, yes they were private sellers, but haven't ordered from companis online, unti now due to a lack of being able to send funds electronically (I now have Paypal).

I can also see where this code would be useful for a few of my friends that would have a hard time understanding why they need a 3 BAR MAP sensor, when they are N/A.

I'd have no problem doing work on teh code, I just don't know enough about it to start hacking or defining the file, or would rescaling this be a good way to learn about adding new features and such? I'm willing to learn, actually I've wanted to for a while, but figured it would make more sense after I start tuning with pre-defined files.

MattODoom

iTrader: (1)

And that's great and all but it still doesn't do me any good. I'm not switching over to the three bar MAP.

Thats how I feel. I really wish this code was setup for a 2bar, its the awesome-sauce. Until they retrocode it for us 2bar'ers or something else comes along ill just have to work with regular $58

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

The amount of work they have done on th $58 code would be worth 10's of thousands of dollars if they didn't do it as a hobby. The cost of a 3-bar sensor is a small price to pay for getting upgraded code.

You will save the $65 for the sensor in the long run if you add up the extra gas for tuning. Not to mention the frustration that goes with the $58 code too.

EDIT: You also gain knowledge from people that understand the $58/$59 at the algorithm level which is a huge help when tuning.

MattODoom

iTrader: (1)

Again, thank you, im well aware of how awesome $59 is. Thats why I want a 2bar version.

But as I stated, I am NOT switching to a 3bar MAP.

ty1295

I guess the point is from my view, nobody has provided a good argument as to a reason 2 bar should be supported besides "I don't want to spend $65"

If it was a matter of switching one line of code in the program sure, might be worth it. When there is a ton of other information we are providing like XDF, ADS, Autotune, etc that then have to be changed, updated, and kept updated from our end it isn't so simple.

So you want to save $65, we want to best use our time (this is volunteer, no money is charged for any information) best to develop new features and not updated and keeping track of 2 different versions.

Now if you want to go 3 bar, it isn't THAT uncommon. I have bought them locally before, just got one at the GM dealer even. Not a big deal.

GM Style 3 Bar Pressure Sensors
Manufacturer Part Number
GM (old)* 16040749
AC Delco (old)* 213-101
GM (new)** 12223861
AC Delco (new)** 213-1562
MSD** 2313
MSD (compact)** 23131
Borg Warner** EC1678
NAPA CRB219481
Electromotive Engine Controls 71130
Holley 538-23

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

Betetr question would be, what vehicles did these come on? From some recent reading I have done, it would seem that these come on diesels (makes sense too, I don't know why I didn't think of that earlier), is this correct? And if so, specific models would be appreciated, vehicle and/or engine.

I definatly don't share MattODoom's resistance to swapping to a 3 BAR MAP sensor, but I too see reasons where a 1 or 2 BAR MAP sensor support would be desired, like I said for people that want to take advantage of other added features, but will be running N/A or <15 PSIG.

ty1295

The sensor came on the 89 Turbo Trans AM.

The sensor is used so widely anymore for so many aftermarket ecm's, it has become very common actually.

I bet if you look on some boards, someone is selling a used one for $30 or so.

I won't deny yes to have 1 or 2 bar support would be NICE. If there was a team of engineers/support staff.

Instead it really is 1 guy doing the main code work and a couple of us testing, bouncing ideas, etc. We would rather spend our spare time on the new alky control, or spool up mode, or security, or any of the many other features we have planned.

I guess aside from the cost aspect I don't see why the resistance. My own truck will only be running 10 psi boost myself. What I like is if/when I do crank up the boost, the base tune is already done.

Same for a NA guy, the options exists to add boost later without a huge retune. If you never add boost, no big loss.

ttypecamaro

iTrader: (2)

I have been waiting in the background for a 2-BAR version... When the time comes to switch to the $59 code for myself... I had full intentions to break down and get a 3 BAR. I've been using the holley commander 950 with a 2BAR and closed loop wideband, that's why I can't justify spending even more money (HC950 is expensive) to switch to something I'm unfamiliar with. I just built an adapter to adapt the HC950 to a stock TPI harness. I can't test it untill I get a tranny in my car, but switching back and forth between the hc950 and $59 would be so easy... I'd start playing with the $59 just for fun when I'm bored untill I could switch over indefinetely. And the saftey of having a (2 seconds to plug-in) backup in case my hc950 craps out on me, again!


(I mean this to be sarcastic, please don't take it seriously) but at this time I guess it isn't quite free enough for me when you have to spend the extra on a sensor and familiarize myself with a new tuning method. I can't justify buying a sensor when the $59 people might make it so I don't have to.

Tony89GTA

iTrader: (7)

Wow I didn't know you guys had this out yet

The cost of the sensor is pennies compared to what I spent on my car, you guys rock! Going to be calling up some places now and hopefully I'll be running this $59 code soon, plus I like the idea of using a 3 bar since it works for me.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

Lots of diesel sensors out there. Most have excellent boost resolution for the 3-bar sensors because diesel has almost zero vacuum. This allows the 0 PSI point to be different than for a SI engine. What that means is they work great if create a 2-D lookup table and feed the input to the ECM. Keep the 1-bar and use the value when N/A, and start reading the 3-bar under boost. You have better resolution than the factor boost systems.

I have yet to find a 3-bar diesel sensor that had a PSI vs. volts curve like a GM SI engine curve.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

I understand where you are coming from now. Since you only want the GM ECM as a backup then just unplug the MAP sensor when you need to plug in the GM ECM because the Holley unit broke. Since you use the GM ECM as a limp home ECM it will run alpha N and get you home. Or just use the $8D code with the MAP unplugged.

ttypecamaro

iTrader: (2)

right, but before I made this adapter I would have to plug in all the injectors and distributer just to switch back to the gm ecm. I never got stranded again, but it will be nice to get rid of the 2nd (HC950) wiring harness under the hood.

And it would be sweet to have a back-up like the $59 code, and eventually get rid of the HC950.

turbodig

Perfectly understandable... I'm not sure I'd mess with it, either, if I had a working aftermarket system. Or even a working GM system.

The niche that $59 fits, is for folks who have added a blower/turbo to something that didn't have it before, and don't currently have an ECM/code combo to run it.

If people are happy with $58 as it is, not sure why you'd switch. (Until we get the NOS/Alky code going... that makes it rather compelling)

In the end, we're not trying to ram this down people's throat... if you don't want to run it, don't. We were curious as to why the resistance to a 3 bar sensor, which seems to be a combination of economics and not wanting to re-learn a whole new system. Again, understandable.

It's quite possible that we will do a 2 bar version someday, although it's not likely going to get the same depth of support as the 3bar stuff, since there won't be as many people running it.

Right now, though, we've got other kettles cookin'.

Later,

Dig