Timing and vortec heads
08-06-2005, 03:01 AM
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Car: 91 GTA, 91 Formula, 89 TTA
Engine: all 225+ RWHP
Transmission: all OD
Axle/Gears: Always the good ones
Timing and vortec heads
Anyone care to share a timing table(preferably someon who has it really nice and worked out, or just comment on what I have stated below) for a 9-1ish compression vortec headed TPI setup.(i cant swap info between computers)
Trying to get rid of some knock and I'm almos 100% sure its not false knock(been underneath and only other possibilities would be the roller rockers or exhaust resonance perhaps)
Trying to be able to run like 2400-2800+ rpm ion the 60-70 kpa range, like a medium throttle and holding third gear out. My BLM's are 128 give or take and I have verified it with the wideband.
I keep getting knock and trying to isolate the cause. I have pulled consdierable amount of timing out and decreased it, but yet it seems slighlty strange to me. I'm talking like I am down to 21-22 degrees and still have some knock.... I might be crazy, but the car does seem to be getting smoother......
Just looking for opinions before I spend some more time chasing it. Does it sound like a timing issue to you or possibly something more. My WOT fueling is good, Bruce and I have both played with AE and I dont believe it to be the issue because I can creep up on it while accellerating slowly and make it occur.....
Again looking for everyones two cents worth :-)
thanks
Jeremy
Trying to get rid of some knock and I'm almos 100% sure its not false knock(been underneath and only other possibilities would be the roller rockers or exhaust resonance perhaps)
Trying to be able to run like 2400-2800+ rpm ion the 60-70 kpa range, like a medium throttle and holding third gear out. My BLM's are 128 give or take and I have verified it with the wideband.
I keep getting knock and trying to isolate the cause. I have pulled consdierable amount of timing out and decreased it, but yet it seems slighlty strange to me. I'm talking like I am down to 21-22 degrees and still have some knock.... I might be crazy, but the car does seem to be getting smoother......
Just looking for opinions before I spend some more time chasing it. Does it sound like a timing issue to you or possibly something more. My WOT fueling is good, Bruce and I have both played with AE and I dont believe it to be the issue because I can creep up on it while accellerating slowly and make it occur.....
Again looking for everyones two cents worth :-)
thanks
Jeremy
Last edited by 3.8TransAM; 08-06-2005 at 03:12 AM.
08-06-2005, 07:31 AM
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Car: check
Engine: check
Transmission: check
If the engine gets smoother as timing is pulled, then it was too much timing (to begin with). The stoich AFR of 14.7 is also subject to detonation. Higher and low AFR's are less detonation prone.
If some Xylene in the tank cures it then more timing will need to be pulled. Can also check the plugs to see if it is one or two cylinders in particular.
Another item is that the weather has been rather hot. This in itself adds to detonation issues.
RBob.
If some Xylene in the tank cures it then more timing will need to be pulled. Can also check the plugs to see if it is one or two cylinders in particular.
Another item is that the weather has been rather hot. This in itself adds to detonation issues.
RBob.
08-06-2005, 12:29 PM
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Car: 91 Red Sled
Axle/Gears: 10bolt Richmond 3.73 Torsen
Didn't we already have this topic not to long ago between you and me? 
Vortec heads do require a lot less timing in cruising but at WOT I've found they want at least 30 degrees, at least in my application (350). In general, the vortec timing table will look like an older timing map but flatter. Not as much up and downs. Look at a b-body lt1 timing table. They are a great starting point for vortec heads since they're nearly identical (lt1 heads have d-port exhaust and flow better on the exhaust). With a lighter vehicle and more gearing you can run about 2 degrees more timing on the WOT area and bring it in at a lower RPM. With the 383, you're VE is going to be lower so don't bring in the timing too quick. The stock table might be best if your 383 has a "hotter" cam.
The key to the vortec heads is their flat timing table. They're just very efficient everywhere! Having a thin casting deck gives them an advantage of not developing hot spots (thermal dynamics techno geek stuff) as easily as the older designs so you can run 30-34 degrees at high load. At least that's what I've been able to do.
As for cruising, 38 degrees max is all I need. I was running 42 but was having issues with cheap winter gas and when I took the 4 degrees out it smoothed out. I gained mpg from the switch and still am running about 16:1 afr. The biggest gain in mpg was from running the lean afr. Oil temps were on average 5 degrees warmer than with stoich so I wasn't concerned. I think with a lower RPM engine it might mean more but I was using practically no throttle and with the small tire 3.73 auto combination it was turning between 2800-3000 on the highway so a lot of the heat could have just been coming from the friction. The cowl hood also vented the the underhood temps really well so that too could have been why my oil temps were rather low.
Vortec heads do require a lot less timing in cruising but at WOT I've found they want at least 30 degrees, at least in my application (350). In general, the vortec timing table will look like an older timing map but flatter. Not as much up and downs. Look at a b-body lt1 timing table. They are a great starting point for vortec heads since they're nearly identical (lt1 heads have d-port exhaust and flow better on the exhaust). With a lighter vehicle and more gearing you can run about 2 degrees more timing on the WOT area and bring it in at a lower RPM. With the 383, you're VE is going to be lower so don't bring in the timing too quick. The stock table might be best if your 383 has a "hotter" cam.
The key to the vortec heads is their flat timing table. They're just very efficient everywhere! Having a thin casting deck gives them an advantage of not developing hot spots (thermal dynamics techno geek stuff) as easily as the older designs so you can run 30-34 degrees at high load. At least that's what I've been able to do.
As for cruising, 38 degrees max is all I need. I was running 42 but was having issues with cheap winter gas and when I took the 4 degrees out it smoothed out. I gained mpg from the switch and still am running about 16:1 afr. The biggest gain in mpg was from running the lean afr. Oil temps were on average 5 degrees warmer than with stoich so I wasn't concerned. I think with a lower RPM engine it might mean more but I was using practically no throttle and with the small tire 3.73 auto combination it was turning between 2800-3000 on the highway so a lot of the heat could have just been coming from the friction. The cowl hood also vented the the underhood temps really well so that too could have been why my oil temps were rather low.
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08-06-2005, 02:42 PM
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Car: 91 GTA, 91 Formula, 89 TTA
Engine: all 225+ RWHP
Transmission: all OD
Axle/Gears: Always the good ones
Rbob, noted and testing has been done at 1am when weather is 70ish and not humid(weather has been a horror here as well)
Prevost, we have talked about this before :-) but I'm still chasing something.
I have a nice log where I induced it at several times to look over today and also am going to attempt to retest t-nite.
Its nice at 1am :-) No traffic lol, log, playback, change and test again.
later
Jeremy
Prevost, we have talked about this before :-) but I'm still chasing something.
I have a nice log where I induced it at several times to look over today and also am going to attempt to retest t-nite.
Its nice at 1am :-) No traffic lol, log, playback, change and test again.
later
Jeremy
08-06-2005, 04:28 PM
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Car: 1988 Monte Carlo SS
Engine: 5.7L TPI
Transmission: T5
Axle/Gears: 3.73
3.8TransAM,
I'm having the same issue you are. Between 2800-3600 rpm at ~60-70kpa I also get some knock retard (T5, 2.73 gears). Right now I'm running 20-22 degrees going into and out of that region and it still knocks (I can't hear it, but the sensor is getting tickled).
My engine: 350, stock TPI intake, 2102 Edelbrock cam, ZZ3 aluminum heads, 10.5:1CR (could be higher, my heads aren't stock cc).
In my case too, the more I fool with it the better it feels. I'm getting no knock in the 2800 rpm region now, but still chasing the higher rpm range.
I cruise at 1300rpm/80kph in the +/-40kpa range with 32 degrees of timing and it's happy.
I'm having the same issue you are. Between 2800-3600 rpm at ~60-70kpa I also get some knock retard (T5, 2.73 gears). Right now I'm running 20-22 degrees going into and out of that region and it still knocks (I can't hear it, but the sensor is getting tickled).
My engine: 350, stock TPI intake, 2102 Edelbrock cam, ZZ3 aluminum heads, 10.5:1CR (could be higher, my heads aren't stock cc).
In my case too, the more I fool with it the better it feels. I'm getting no knock in the 2800 rpm region now, but still chasing the higher rpm range.
I cruise at 1300rpm/80kph in the +/-40kpa range with 32 degrees of timing and it's happy.
08-06-2005, 04:52 PM
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Car: 91 Red Sled
Axle/Gears: 10bolt Richmond 3.73 Torsen
MonteCarSlow, when it's recording knock counts and taking out timing how much is it removing? Also, is the knock coming in when you roll into the 2800-3600rpm range or when you're cruising at that speed? Often it's a case of too much timing at lower RPM that heats up the combustion chamber that results in mid/light throttle detonation at a higher RPM. Try removing timing at the lower RPM and give it a try, like from 2000-2600 take out 4 degrees right off the bat.
08-06-2005, 05:24 PM
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Car: 1988 Monte Carlo SS
Engine: 5.7L TPI
Transmission: T5
Axle/Gears: 3.73
Originally posted by JPrevost
MonteCarSlow, when it's recording knock counts and taking out timing how much is it removing? Also, is the knock coming in when you roll into the 2800-3600rpm range or when you're cruising at that speed? Often it's a case of too much timing at lower RPM that heats up the combustion chamber that results in mid/light throttle detonation at a higher RPM. Try removing timing at the lower RPM and give it a try, like from 2000-2600 take out 4 degrees right off the bat.
MonteCarSlow, when it's recording knock counts and taking out timing how much is it removing? Also, is the knock coming in when you roll into the 2800-3600rpm range or when you're cruising at that speed? Often it's a case of too much timing at lower RPM that heats up the combustion chamber that results in mid/light throttle detonation at a higher RPM. Try removing timing at the lower RPM and give it a try, like from 2000-2600 take out 4 degrees right off the bat.
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08-07-2005, 07:58 AM
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Car: An Ol Buick
Engine: Vsick
Transmission: Janis Tranny Yank Converter
Re: Timing and vortec heads
Originally posted by 3.8TransAM
I keep getting knock and trying to isolate the cause. I have pulled consdierable amount of timing out and decreased it, but yet it seems slighlty strange to me. I'm talking like I am down to 21-22 degrees and still have some knock.... I might be crazy, but the car does seem to be getting smoother......
I keep getting knock and trying to isolate the cause. I have pulled consdierable amount of timing out and decreased it, but yet it seems slighlty strange to me. I'm talking like I am down to 21-22 degrees and still have some knock.... I might be crazy, but the car does seem to be getting smoother......
If it doesn't like much advance, and it runs well, then it doesn't need it.
This *more timing the better* strategy is great for working on flatheads.
Oh, BTW, are you in the Chicago EPA's hit list area?. Who knows what the latest gasoline answer to emissions is up there.
08-07-2005, 03:15 PM
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Car: 91 GTA, 91 Formula, 89 TTA
Engine: all 225+ RWHP
Transmission: all OD
Axle/Gears: Always the good ones
Never ran a more timing is better strategy on this setup :-)
Most was still 3-4 degree less than stock and some a lot more.
We are on the Chicago wonder parade for environmental BS. Us and neighboring county are th eonly ones in IN who do IM 240 style emission testing too. Luck me :-)
Well, I managed to run the timing down to where the car starting getting boggy last nite, so I went right past my sweet spot it appears.
Although some of the knock may be due to an exhaust resonance, I did get it to occur several times together. But sometimes it was there and others not at all.
Will update when I retest.
later
Jeremy
Most was still 3-4 degree less than stock and some a lot more.
We are on the Chicago wonder parade for environmental BS. Us and neighboring county are th eonly ones in IN who do IM 240 style emission testing too. Luck me :-)
Well, I managed to run the timing down to where the car starting getting boggy last nite, so I went right past my sweet spot it appears.
Although some of the knock may be due to an exhaust resonance, I did get it to occur several times together. But sometimes it was there and others not at all.
Will update when I retest.
later
Jeremy
08-08-2005, 12:20 PM
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Car: 88 Camaro SC
Engine: SFI'd 350
Transmission: TKO 500
Axle/Gears: 9-bolt w/ 3.23's
Im in the same boat as JP. I ran 38 deg at cruise and around 32 degrees at WOT.
Monte,
How do the AFRs look when you roll into it? Is it going lean or anyting?
Monte,
How do the AFRs look when you roll into it? Is it going lean or anyting?
08-09-2005, 02:02 PM
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Car: 1991 Camaro Z28
Engine: 350
Transmission: 700R4
Not sure if this'll be of any use but thought I'd post it anyways. This is the stock spark table from a buddies 96 Z28 (AL LT1 heads) with manual trans.
08-09-2005, 02:42 PM
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Car: 1988 Monte Carlo SS
Engine: 5.7L TPI
Transmission: T5
Axle/Gears: 3.73
JPrevost: I flattened out the SA for the heavy load areas. It definitely helped get rid of the 2800-3600 retard, but now I have retard happening at >3600.
dimented24x7: I'll need to hook up the WB to be 100% sure, but from my log I think I'm ok on the fuel when this happens.
Here is my spark table (ZZ3 heads):
<code>Spark Advance vs. RPM vs. MAP
RPM MAP
20 30 40 50 60 70 75 80 85 90 95 100
4800 29.88 31.99 31.99 31.99 23.91 22.15 21.09 20.04 18.98 17.93 17.93 17.93
4400 29.88 31.99 31.99 31.99 23.91 22.15 21.09 20.04 18.98 17.93 17.93 17.93
4000 29.88 31.99 31.99 29.88 23.91 22.15 21.09 20.04 18.98 17.93 17.93 17.93
3600 29.88 30.94 30.94 25.31 23.91 22.15 21.09 20.04 18.98 17.93 17.93 17.93
3200 28.12 28.12 28.12 24.96 23.91 22.15 21.09 20.04 18.98 17.93 17.93 17.93
2800 28.12 28.83 28.83 25.31 23.91 22.15 21.09 20.04 18.98 17.93 17.93 17.93
2400 29.18 30.94 30.94 27.07 23.91 22.15 21.09 20.04 18.98 17.93 17.93 17.93
2200 29.88 31.99 31.99 29.88 23.91 22.15 21.09 20.04 18.98 17.93 17.93 17.93
2000 29.88 31.99 31.99 29.88 23.91 22.15 21.09 20.04 18.98 17.93 17.93 17.93
1800 29.88 31.99 31.99 29.88 23.91 22.15 21.09 20.04 18.98 17.93 17.93 17.93
1600 29.88 31.99 31.99 29.88 23.91 22.15 21.09 20.04 18.98 16.17 16.17 16.17
1400 29.88 31.99 31.99 29.88 23.91 22.15 21.09 20.04 18.98 17.93 17.93 17.93
1200 24.96 24.96 24.96 24.96 22.15 20.74 16.17 11.95 9.84 9.84 9.84 9.84
1000 20.04 20.04 20.04 20.04 17.93 16.17 14.06 9.84 8.09 5.98 5.98 5.98
800 20.04 20.04 20.04 20.04 17.93 16.17 14.06 9.84 5.98 5.98 5.98 5.98
600 20.04 20.04 20.04 20.04 17.93 16.17 14.06 9.84 5.98 5.98 5.98 5.98
400 20.04 20.04 20.04 20.04 17.93 16.17 14.06 9.84 5.98 5.98 5.98 5.98</code>
Here is the log of the above timing table, ~50% TPS in 2nd gear, retard starts at 3550 rpm.
<code>Elapsed(s),RPM,TPS(%),TPS,MAP,MAT,CTS,SPARK,O2,BLM,cell,INT,KM/H,VOLT,O2 count,IAC,BPW,AFR,Knock Counts,Knock Retard,Run Time
444.13,1650,3,0.63,28,90,196,32,0.177,126,2,128,38,14.2,92,113,0.000,14.7,5,0,490
444.24,1650,4,0.65,30,90,196,32,0.177,126,2,128,38,14.3,92,120,0.000,14.7,5,0,490
444.35,1625,4,0.67,33,90,196,32,0.172,126,2,128,38,14.2,92,120,0.000,14.7,5,0,490
444.46,1600,8,0.75,36,90,196,32,0.172,126,6,128,38,13.8,92,122,2.106,14.7,5,0,490
444.57,1600,9,0.80,40,90,196,32,0.172,126,6,128,36,14.1,92,127,2.457,14.7,5,0,490
444.67,1675,9,0.80,41,90,196,32,0.181,126,6,130,36,14.4,92,127,2.579,14.7,5,0,490
444.79,1525,9,0.80,43,90,196,31,0.181,126,6,131,36,14.4,92,129,2.747,14.7,5,0,490
444.9,1650,13,0.94,48,90,196,31,0.782,126,6,132,36,14.4,93,132,2.930,14.7,5,0,491
445.01,1575,13,0.94,51,90,196,30,0.813,126,10,131,36,14,93,132,3.235,14.7,5,0,491
445.12,1625,13,0.94,52,90,196,30,0.575,126,10,130,36,14,93,132,3.311,14.7,5,0,491
445.23,1600,13,0.94,53,90,196,29,0.407,126,10,130,36,14.4,94,132,3.342,14.7,5,0,491
445.33,1625,13,0.94,53,90,196,29,0.703,126,10,130,38,14.4,95,132,3.372,14.7,5,0,491
445.44,1650,13,0.94,52,90,196,29,0.782,126,10,129,36,14.4,95,132,3.311,14.7,5,0,491
445.55,1650,13,0.94,52,90,196,29,0.703,126,10,128,36,14.4,95,132,3.250,14.7,5,0,491
445.66,1675,13,0.94,51,90,196,30,0.782,126,10,127,38,14,95,132,3.159,14.7,5,0,491
445.76,1650,13,0.94,52,90,196,30,0.756,126,10,125,38,14,95,131,3.159,14.7,5,0,491
445.88,1700,13,0.94,51,90,196,30,0.570,126,10,124,38,14.4,95,131,3.143,14.7,5,0,491
445.99,1725,14,0.96,51,90,196,30,0.327,126,10,124,38,14.4,96,131,3.143,14.7,5,0,492
446.1,1725,14,0.96,52,90,196,30,0.278,126,10,124,38,14.4,96,131,3.220,14.7,5,0,492
446.21,1725,16,0.98,52,90,196,30,0.265,126,10,125,38,14,96,131,3.235,14.7,5,0,492
446.32,1775,18,1.08,57,90,196,26,0.252,126,10,126,38,14.1,96,131,3.647,14.7,5,0,492
446.42,1800,18,1.08,58,90,196,26,0.212,126,10,128,40,14.4,96,131,3.860,14.7,5,0,492
446.54,1800,18,1.08,58,90,196,26,0.230,126,10,129,40,14.4,96,131,3.906,14.7,5,0,492
446.65,1825,18,1.08,57,90,196,26,0.420,126,10,131,40,14.4,98,131,3.799,14.7,5,0,492
446.76,1825,18,1.08,57,90,196,26,0.747,126,10,131,40,14.3,99,131,3.769,14.7,5,0,492
446.87,1875,18,1.08,56,90,196,27,0.756,126,10,130,42,14,99,131,3.677,14.7,5,0,492
446.98,1850,18,1.08,56,90,196,27,0.769,126,10,128,42,14,99,131,3.586,14.7,5,0,493
447.08,1900,18,1.08,56,90,196,27,0.765,126,10,126,42,14.4,99,131,3.540,14.7,5,0,493
447.2,1925,18,1.08,55,90,196,27,0.636,126,10,124,42,14.4,99,131,3.494,14.7,5,0,493
447.31,1925,19,1.10,56,90,196,27,0.592,126,10,124,44,14.4,99,131,3.494,14.7,5,0,493
447.42,1950,19,1.10,55,90,196,27,0.473,126,10,124,44,14.4,102,131,3.586,14.7,5,0,493
447.53,1975,19,1.10,55,90,196,27,0.473,126,10,124,44,14.4,103,131,3.540,14.7,5,0,493
447.64,1950,19,1.10,55,90,196,27,0.729,126,10,124,44,14.4,103,131,3.540,14.7,5,0,493
447.75,2025,21,1.18,57,90,196,26,0.606,126,10,123,44,14.4,103,131,3.754,14.7,5,0,493
447.85,2050,22,1.18,59,90,196,25,0.287,126,10,123,46,14.4,104,131,3.922,14.7,5,0,493
447.97,2025,22,1.20,60,90,196,25,0.252,126,10,123,46,14.3,104,131,4.013,14.7,5,0,494
448.08,2050,23,1.24,61,90,196,24,0.283,126,10,125,46,14.4,104,131,3.983,14.7,5,0,494
448.19,2075,24,1.25,63,90,196,23,0.261,120,15,125,46,14.4,104,131,4.181,14.7,5,0,494
448.3,2125,26,1.29,64,90,196,22,0.221,120,15,127,46,14.4,104,131,4.272,14.7,5,0,494
448.41,2150,26,1.31,65,90,196,22,0.217,120,15,129,48,14.4,104,131,4.410,14.7,5,0,494
448.51,2175,26,1.33,66,90,196,21,0.221,120,15,131,48,14.3,104,131,4.578,14.7,5,0,494
448.63,2175,27,1.35,66,90,196,21,0.265,120,15,134,48,14.4,104,131,4.608,14.7,5,0,494
448.74,2175,28,1.37,67,90,196,21,0.420,120,15,134,50,14.4,105,131,4.593,14.7,5,0,494
448.8,2250,29,1.39,67,90,196,21,0.557,120,15,134,50,14.4,109,131,4.639,14.7,5,0,494
448.91,2250,29,1.41,69,90,196,21,0.477,120,15,134,50,14.4,112,131,4.730,14.7,5,0,495
449.01,2300,29,1.41,68,90,196,21,0.442,120,15,134,50,14.4,115,131,4.700,14.7,5,0,495
449.12,2275,29,1.43,68,90,196,21,0.685,120,15,134,52,14.4,117,131,4.730,14.7,5,0,495
449.23,2350,29,1.43,68,90,196,21,0.619,120,15,134,52,14.4,117,131,4.700,14.7,5,0,495
449.33,2350,29,1.43,67,90,196,21,0.645,120,15,133,54,14.4,117,131,4.684,14.7,5,0,495
449.45,2400,30,1.45,67,90,196,21,0.614,120,15,132,54,14.4,117,131,4.654,14.7,5,0,495
449.56,2400,30,1.45,67,90,196,21,0.672,120,15,131,54,14.4,117,131,4.608,14.7,5,0,495
449.67,2425,31,1.47,67,90,196,21,0.623,120,15,131,56,14.4,117,131,4.700,14.7,5,0,495
449.78,2450,31,1.49,67,90,196,21,0.632,120,15,130,56,14.4,117,131,4.730,14.7,5,0,495
449.89,2500,32,1.49,67,90,196,21,0.548,120,15,129,56,14.4,117,131,4.776,14.7,5,0,496
450,2525,32,1.51,68,90,196,22,0.561,120,15,129,56,14.4,119,131,4.791,14.7,5,0,496
450.1,2550,33,1.53,69,90,196,21,0.553,120,15,129,58,14.4,123,131,4.913,14.7,5,0,496
450.22,2575,34,1.57,69,90,196,21,0.469,120,15,129,58,14.4,128,131,5.005,14.7,5,0,496
450.33,2575,35,1.59,69,90,196,21,0.716,120,15,129,58,14.4,129,131,5.005,14.7,5,0,496
450.44,2650,35,1.61,70,90,196,21,0.628,120,15,128,58,14.4,129,131,5.203,14.7,5,0,496
450.55,2650,36,1.63,70,90,196,21,0.561,120,15,128,60,14.4,131,131,5.173,14.7,5,0,496
450.66,2700,36,1.63,70,90,196,21,0.650,120,15,128,60,14.4,133,131,5.157,14.7,5,0,496
450.76,2700,36,1.63,70,90,196,21,0.654,120,15,127,60,14.4,133,131,5.249,14.7,5,0,496
450.88,2725,37,1.65,70,90,196,21,0.747,120,15,126,62,14.4,133,131,5.203,14.7,5,0,497
450.99,2725,37,1.65,70,90,196,21,0.663,120,15,124,62,14.4,133,131,5.234,14.7,5,0,497
451.1,2800,37,1.65,70,90,196,22,0.641,120,15,124,62,14.4,133,131,5.157,14.7,5,0,497
451.21,2775,37,1.67,70,90,196,22,0.694,120,15,122,62,14.4,133,131,5.188,14.7,5,0,497
451.32,2800,38,1.69,70,90,196,21,0.623,120,15,122,64,14.4,133,131,5.219,14.7,5,0,497
451.49,2825,38,1.71,70,90,196,21,0.495,120,15,121,64,14.4,138,131,5.249,14.7,5,0,497
451.54,2875,38,1.71,70,90,196,21,0.495,120,15,121,64,14.4,143,131,5.325,14.7,5,0,497
451.65,2875,38,1.71,70,90,196,22,0.623,120,15,121,67,14.4,145,131,5.264,14.7,5,0,497
451.76,2900,40,1.73,70,90,196,21,0.539,120,15,121,67,14.4,145,131,5.341,14.7,5,0,497
451.87,2950,40,1.75,71,90,196,21,0.398,120,15,121,67,14.4,146,131,5.371,14.7,5,0,498
451.98,2925,40,1.75,71,90,196,21,0.495,120,15,121,67,14.4,152,131,5.341,14.7,5,0,498
452.08,2975,40,1.75,71,90,196,21,0.610,120,15,121,67,14.4,155,131,5.325,14.7,5,0,498
452.2,3050,41,1.76,71,90,196,21,0.486,118,15,121,69,14.4,157,131,5.310,14.7,5,0,498
452.31,3025,41,1.78,71,90,196,21,0.239,118,15,121,69,14.4,158,131,5.356,14.7,5,0,498
452.42,3050,42,1.80,72,90,196,21,0.217,118,15,123,69,14.4,158,131,5.432,14.7,5,0,498
452.53,3100,42,1.82,71,90,196,21,0.208,118,15,125,69,14.4,158,131,5.478,14.7,5,0,498
452.64,3100,43,1.84,73,90,196,21,0.221,118,15,127,71,14.4,158,131,5.585,14.7,5,0,498
452.75,3150,44,1.86,73,90,196,21,0.248,118,15,129,71,14.4,158,131,5.600,14.7,5,0,498
452.85,3150,44,1.86,73,90,196,21,0.482,118,15,130,73,14.4,162,131,5.676,14.7,5,0,498
452.97,3175,45,1.90,74,90,196,21,0.385,118,15,130,73,14.4,168,131,5.722,14.7,5,0,499
453.08,3200,46,1.92,75,90,196,21,0.438,118,15,130,75,14.3,174,131,5.783,14.7,5,0,499
453.19,3225,47,1.96,75,90,196,21,0.460,118,15,130,75,14.3,180,131,5.844,14.7,5,0,499
453.3,3275,47,1.98,76,90,196,21,0.504,118,15,130,75,14.3,184,131,5.890,14.7,5,0,499
453.41,3300,48,2.00,77,90,196,21,0.380,118,15,130,75,14.4,184,131,5.859,14.7,5,0,499
453.51,3350,48,2.00,77,90,196,21,0.349,118,15,130,77,14.3,188,131,5.920,14.7,5,0,499
453.63,3375,48,2.00,76,90,196,21,0.482,118,15,130,77,14.4,190,131,5.844,14.7,5,0,499
453.74,3400,48,2.00,76,90,196,21,0.632,118,15,130,79,14.4,191,131,5.875,14.7,5,0,499
453.85,3425,49,2.02,76,90,196,21,0.561,118,15,130,77,14.3,191,131,5.844,14.7,5,0,499
453.96,3425,49,2.02,76,90,196,21,0.628,118,15,129,79,14.4,191,131,5.798,14.7,5,0,500
454.07,3475,49,2.02,75,90,196,21,0.694,118,15,128,79,14.3,191,131,5.814,14.7,5,0,500
454.17,3500,49,2.02,75,90,196,21,0.667,118,15,127,79,14.3,191,131,5.798,14.7,5,0,500
454.29,3525,49,2.02,74,90,196,21,0.690,118,15,126,81,14.3,191,131,5.707,14.7,5,0,500
454.4,3550,49,2.02,75,90,196,21,0.636,118,15,125,81,14.3,191,131,5.737,14.7,5,2.461322,500
454.51,3600,49,2.02,74,90,196,21,0.654,118,15,124,81,14.3,191,131,5.676,14.7,6,5.274261,500
454.62,3625,49,2.02,74,90,196,21,0.659,118,15,123,83,14.3,191,131,5.661,14.7,6,4.922644,500
454.73,3675,49,2.02,74,90,196,21,0.526,118,15,123,83,14.3,193,131,5.676,14.7,6,4.922644,500
454.83,3675,49,2.02,74,90,196,21,0.548,118,15,123,83,14.3,196,131,5.646,14.7,6,7.032349,500
454.95,3700,49,2.02,74,90,196,21,0.535,118,15,123,85,14.3,199,131,5.585,14.7,6,7.032349,501
455.06,3725,49,2.02,74,90,196,21,0.628,118,15,123,85,14.3,199,131,5.539,14.7,6,6.329113,501
455.17,3725,49,2.02,73,90,196,21,0.636,118,15,123,85,14.3,203,131,5.585,14.7,6,5.977496,501
455.28,3775,49,2.02,73,90,196,22,0.650,118,15,122,87,14.3,203,131,5.493,14.7,6,5.977496,501
455.39,3750,48,2.00,73,90,196,22,0.486,118,15,122,85,14.3,204,131,5.493,14.7,6,5.625879,501
455.5,3850,48,2.00,73,90,196,22,0.716,116,15,122,87,14.3,207,131,5.371,14.7,6,5.625879,501
455.6,3775,48,2.00,73,90,196,22,0.473,116,15,121,87,14.3,209,131,5.417,14.7,6,5.274261,501
455.72,3875,49,2.00,73,90,196,22,0.287,116,15,121,87,14.3,210,131,5.356,14.7,6,5.274261,501
455.83,3850,48,2.00,73,90,196,22,0.314,116,15,121,89,14.3,210,131,5.371,14.7,6,4.922644,501
455.94,3875,48,2.00,72,90,196,22,0.367,116,15,122,89,14.3,210,131,5.280,14.7,6,4.922644,502
456.05,3925,48,2.00,72,90,196,22,0.278,116,15,122,89,14.3,214,131,5.310,14.7,6,4.571026,502
456.16,3950,48,2.00,72,90,196,22,0.433,116,15,123,89,14.3,215,131,5.264,14.7,6,4.571026,502
456.26,3975,48,2.00,72,90,196,22,0.544,116,15,123,91,14.3,218,131,5.295,14.7,6,4.219409,502
456.38,3975,47,1.98,71,88,196,22,0.601,116,15,123,91,14.3,225,131,5.203,14.7,6,4.219409,502
456.48,3975,47,1.98,71,88,196,22,0.645,116,15,123,91,14.3,225,131,5.188,14.7,6,3.867792,502
456.58,4000,46,1.94,70,88,196,23,0.707,116,15,122,91,14.3,225,131,5.096,14.7,6,3.516174,502
456.7,4025,45,1.92,69,88,196,23,0.747,116,15,120,93,14.3,225,131,4.974,14.7,6,3.516174,502
456.81,4050,45,1.90,68,88,196,23,0.712,116,15,118,93,14.3,225,131,4.837,14.7,6,3.164557,502
456.92,4025,44,1.88,67,88,196,23,0.486,114,15,116,93,14.3,226,131,4.654,14.7,6,3.164557,503
457.03,4075,42,1.84,65,88,196,23,0.177,114,15,116,95,14.3,226,131,4.120,14.7,6,2.812939,503
457.14,4075,41,1.78,62,88,196,24,0.115,114,15,118,93,14.3,226,131,4.013,14.7,6,2.812939,503
457.25,4100,40,1.76,62,88,196,24,9.724,114,15,120,93,14.3,226,131,4.013,14.7,6,2.461322,503
457.35,4100,40,1.73,60,88,196,25,0.111,114,15,122,95,14.3,226,131,3.937,14.7,6,2.109704,503
457.47,4100,35,1.67,57,88,196,26,0.159,126,11,125,95,14.3,226,131,4.059,14.7,6,2.109704,503
457.58,4100,22,1.31,44,88,196,32,0.844,126,11,125,93,14.3,227,131,2.625,14.7,6,0,503
457.69,3975,0,0.51,21,88,196,27,0.897,128,3,124,93,14.3,227,131,1.114,14.7,6,0,503
457.8,3725,0,0.51,17,88,196,27,0.787,128,3,128,93,14.2,227,130,0.839,14.7,6,0,503
457.91,3525,0,0.51,15,88,196,27,0.791,128,3,127,91,14.2,227,129,0.763,14.7,6,0,504
458.01,3300,0,0.51,15,88,196,27,0.751,128,3,126,93,14.2,227,128,0.778,14.7,6,0,504
458.13,3075,0,0.51,15,88,196,27,0.774,128,3,125,93,14.2,227,126,0.778,14.7,6,0,504</code>
dimented24x7: I'll need to hook up the WB to be 100% sure, but from my log I think I'm ok on the fuel when this happens.
Here is my spark table (ZZ3 heads):
<code>Spark Advance vs. RPM vs. MAP
RPM MAP
20 30 40 50 60 70 75 80 85 90 95 100
4800 29.88 31.99 31.99 31.99 23.91 22.15 21.09 20.04 18.98 17.93 17.93 17.93
4400 29.88 31.99 31.99 31.99 23.91 22.15 21.09 20.04 18.98 17.93 17.93 17.93
4000 29.88 31.99 31.99 29.88 23.91 22.15 21.09 20.04 18.98 17.93 17.93 17.93
3600 29.88 30.94 30.94 25.31 23.91 22.15 21.09 20.04 18.98 17.93 17.93 17.93
3200 28.12 28.12 28.12 24.96 23.91 22.15 21.09 20.04 18.98 17.93 17.93 17.93
2800 28.12 28.83 28.83 25.31 23.91 22.15 21.09 20.04 18.98 17.93 17.93 17.93
2400 29.18 30.94 30.94 27.07 23.91 22.15 21.09 20.04 18.98 17.93 17.93 17.93
2200 29.88 31.99 31.99 29.88 23.91 22.15 21.09 20.04 18.98 17.93 17.93 17.93
2000 29.88 31.99 31.99 29.88 23.91 22.15 21.09 20.04 18.98 17.93 17.93 17.93
1800 29.88 31.99 31.99 29.88 23.91 22.15 21.09 20.04 18.98 17.93 17.93 17.93
1600 29.88 31.99 31.99 29.88 23.91 22.15 21.09 20.04 18.98 16.17 16.17 16.17
1400 29.88 31.99 31.99 29.88 23.91 22.15 21.09 20.04 18.98 17.93 17.93 17.93
1200 24.96 24.96 24.96 24.96 22.15 20.74 16.17 11.95 9.84 9.84 9.84 9.84
1000 20.04 20.04 20.04 20.04 17.93 16.17 14.06 9.84 8.09 5.98 5.98 5.98
800 20.04 20.04 20.04 20.04 17.93 16.17 14.06 9.84 5.98 5.98 5.98 5.98
600 20.04 20.04 20.04 20.04 17.93 16.17 14.06 9.84 5.98 5.98 5.98 5.98
400 20.04 20.04 20.04 20.04 17.93 16.17 14.06 9.84 5.98 5.98 5.98 5.98</code>
Here is the log of the above timing table, ~50% TPS in 2nd gear, retard starts at 3550 rpm.
<code>Elapsed(s),RPM,TPS(%),TPS,MAP,MAT,CTS,SPARK,O2,BLM,cell,INT,KM/H,VOLT,O2 count,IAC,BPW,AFR,Knock Counts,Knock Retard,Run Time
444.13,1650,3,0.63,28,90,196,32,0.177,126,2,128,38,14.2,92,113,0.000,14.7,5,0,490
444.24,1650,4,0.65,30,90,196,32,0.177,126,2,128,38,14.3,92,120,0.000,14.7,5,0,490
444.35,1625,4,0.67,33,90,196,32,0.172,126,2,128,38,14.2,92,120,0.000,14.7,5,0,490
444.46,1600,8,0.75,36,90,196,32,0.172,126,6,128,38,13.8,92,122,2.106,14.7,5,0,490
444.57,1600,9,0.80,40,90,196,32,0.172,126,6,128,36,14.1,92,127,2.457,14.7,5,0,490
444.67,1675,9,0.80,41,90,196,32,0.181,126,6,130,36,14.4,92,127,2.579,14.7,5,0,490
444.79,1525,9,0.80,43,90,196,31,0.181,126,6,131,36,14.4,92,129,2.747,14.7,5,0,490
444.9,1650,13,0.94,48,90,196,31,0.782,126,6,132,36,14.4,93,132,2.930,14.7,5,0,491
445.01,1575,13,0.94,51,90,196,30,0.813,126,10,131,36,14,93,132,3.235,14.7,5,0,491
445.12,1625,13,0.94,52,90,196,30,0.575,126,10,130,36,14,93,132,3.311,14.7,5,0,491
445.23,1600,13,0.94,53,90,196,29,0.407,126,10,130,36,14.4,94,132,3.342,14.7,5,0,491
445.33,1625,13,0.94,53,90,196,29,0.703,126,10,130,38,14.4,95,132,3.372,14.7,5,0,491
445.44,1650,13,0.94,52,90,196,29,0.782,126,10,129,36,14.4,95,132,3.311,14.7,5,0,491
445.55,1650,13,0.94,52,90,196,29,0.703,126,10,128,36,14.4,95,132,3.250,14.7,5,0,491
445.66,1675,13,0.94,51,90,196,30,0.782,126,10,127,38,14,95,132,3.159,14.7,5,0,491
445.76,1650,13,0.94,52,90,196,30,0.756,126,10,125,38,14,95,131,3.159,14.7,5,0,491
445.88,1700,13,0.94,51,90,196,30,0.570,126,10,124,38,14.4,95,131,3.143,14.7,5,0,491
445.99,1725,14,0.96,51,90,196,30,0.327,126,10,124,38,14.4,96,131,3.143,14.7,5,0,492
446.1,1725,14,0.96,52,90,196,30,0.278,126,10,124,38,14.4,96,131,3.220,14.7,5,0,492
446.21,1725,16,0.98,52,90,196,30,0.265,126,10,125,38,14,96,131,3.235,14.7,5,0,492
446.32,1775,18,1.08,57,90,196,26,0.252,126,10,126,38,14.1,96,131,3.647,14.7,5,0,492
446.42,1800,18,1.08,58,90,196,26,0.212,126,10,128,40,14.4,96,131,3.860,14.7,5,0,492
446.54,1800,18,1.08,58,90,196,26,0.230,126,10,129,40,14.4,96,131,3.906,14.7,5,0,492
446.65,1825,18,1.08,57,90,196,26,0.420,126,10,131,40,14.4,98,131,3.799,14.7,5,0,492
446.76,1825,18,1.08,57,90,196,26,0.747,126,10,131,40,14.3,99,131,3.769,14.7,5,0,492
446.87,1875,18,1.08,56,90,196,27,0.756,126,10,130,42,14,99,131,3.677,14.7,5,0,492
446.98,1850,18,1.08,56,90,196,27,0.769,126,10,128,42,14,99,131,3.586,14.7,5,0,493
447.08,1900,18,1.08,56,90,196,27,0.765,126,10,126,42,14.4,99,131,3.540,14.7,5,0,493
447.2,1925,18,1.08,55,90,196,27,0.636,126,10,124,42,14.4,99,131,3.494,14.7,5,0,493
447.31,1925,19,1.10,56,90,196,27,0.592,126,10,124,44,14.4,99,131,3.494,14.7,5,0,493
447.42,1950,19,1.10,55,90,196,27,0.473,126,10,124,44,14.4,102,131,3.586,14.7,5,0,493
447.53,1975,19,1.10,55,90,196,27,0.473,126,10,124,44,14.4,103,131,3.540,14.7,5,0,493
447.64,1950,19,1.10,55,90,196,27,0.729,126,10,124,44,14.4,103,131,3.540,14.7,5,0,493
447.75,2025,21,1.18,57,90,196,26,0.606,126,10,123,44,14.4,103,131,3.754,14.7,5,0,493
447.85,2050,22,1.18,59,90,196,25,0.287,126,10,123,46,14.4,104,131,3.922,14.7,5,0,493
447.97,2025,22,1.20,60,90,196,25,0.252,126,10,123,46,14.3,104,131,4.013,14.7,5,0,494
448.08,2050,23,1.24,61,90,196,24,0.283,126,10,125,46,14.4,104,131,3.983,14.7,5,0,494
448.19,2075,24,1.25,63,90,196,23,0.261,120,15,125,46,14.4,104,131,4.181,14.7,5,0,494
448.3,2125,26,1.29,64,90,196,22,0.221,120,15,127,46,14.4,104,131,4.272,14.7,5,0,494
448.41,2150,26,1.31,65,90,196,22,0.217,120,15,129,48,14.4,104,131,4.410,14.7,5,0,494
448.51,2175,26,1.33,66,90,196,21,0.221,120,15,131,48,14.3,104,131,4.578,14.7,5,0,494
448.63,2175,27,1.35,66,90,196,21,0.265,120,15,134,48,14.4,104,131,4.608,14.7,5,0,494
448.74,2175,28,1.37,67,90,196,21,0.420,120,15,134,50,14.4,105,131,4.593,14.7,5,0,494
448.8,2250,29,1.39,67,90,196,21,0.557,120,15,134,50,14.4,109,131,4.639,14.7,5,0,494
448.91,2250,29,1.41,69,90,196,21,0.477,120,15,134,50,14.4,112,131,4.730,14.7,5,0,495
449.01,2300,29,1.41,68,90,196,21,0.442,120,15,134,50,14.4,115,131,4.700,14.7,5,0,495
449.12,2275,29,1.43,68,90,196,21,0.685,120,15,134,52,14.4,117,131,4.730,14.7,5,0,495
449.23,2350,29,1.43,68,90,196,21,0.619,120,15,134,52,14.4,117,131,4.700,14.7,5,0,495
449.33,2350,29,1.43,67,90,196,21,0.645,120,15,133,54,14.4,117,131,4.684,14.7,5,0,495
449.45,2400,30,1.45,67,90,196,21,0.614,120,15,132,54,14.4,117,131,4.654,14.7,5,0,495
449.56,2400,30,1.45,67,90,196,21,0.672,120,15,131,54,14.4,117,131,4.608,14.7,5,0,495
449.67,2425,31,1.47,67,90,196,21,0.623,120,15,131,56,14.4,117,131,4.700,14.7,5,0,495
449.78,2450,31,1.49,67,90,196,21,0.632,120,15,130,56,14.4,117,131,4.730,14.7,5,0,495
449.89,2500,32,1.49,67,90,196,21,0.548,120,15,129,56,14.4,117,131,4.776,14.7,5,0,496
450,2525,32,1.51,68,90,196,22,0.561,120,15,129,56,14.4,119,131,4.791,14.7,5,0,496
450.1,2550,33,1.53,69,90,196,21,0.553,120,15,129,58,14.4,123,131,4.913,14.7,5,0,496
450.22,2575,34,1.57,69,90,196,21,0.469,120,15,129,58,14.4,128,131,5.005,14.7,5,0,496
450.33,2575,35,1.59,69,90,196,21,0.716,120,15,129,58,14.4,129,131,5.005,14.7,5,0,496
450.44,2650,35,1.61,70,90,196,21,0.628,120,15,128,58,14.4,129,131,5.203,14.7,5,0,496
450.55,2650,36,1.63,70,90,196,21,0.561,120,15,128,60,14.4,131,131,5.173,14.7,5,0,496
450.66,2700,36,1.63,70,90,196,21,0.650,120,15,128,60,14.4,133,131,5.157,14.7,5,0,496
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450.99,2725,37,1.65,70,90,196,21,0.663,120,15,124,62,14.4,133,131,5.234,14.7,5,0,497
451.1,2800,37,1.65,70,90,196,22,0.641,120,15,124,62,14.4,133,131,5.157,14.7,5,0,497
451.21,2775,37,1.67,70,90,196,22,0.694,120,15,122,62,14.4,133,131,5.188,14.7,5,0,497
451.32,2800,38,1.69,70,90,196,21,0.623,120,15,122,64,14.4,133,131,5.219,14.7,5,0,497
451.49,2825,38,1.71,70,90,196,21,0.495,120,15,121,64,14.4,138,131,5.249,14.7,5,0,497
451.54,2875,38,1.71,70,90,196,21,0.495,120,15,121,64,14.4,143,131,5.325,14.7,5,0,497
451.65,2875,38,1.71,70,90,196,22,0.623,120,15,121,67,14.4,145,131,5.264,14.7,5,0,497
451.76,2900,40,1.73,70,90,196,21,0.539,120,15,121,67,14.4,145,131,5.341,14.7,5,0,497
451.87,2950,40,1.75,71,90,196,21,0.398,120,15,121,67,14.4,146,131,5.371,14.7,5,0,498
451.98,2925,40,1.75,71,90,196,21,0.495,120,15,121,67,14.4,152,131,5.341,14.7,5,0,498
452.08,2975,40,1.75,71,90,196,21,0.610,120,15,121,67,14.4,155,131,5.325,14.7,5,0,498
452.2,3050,41,1.76,71,90,196,21,0.486,118,15,121,69,14.4,157,131,5.310,14.7,5,0,498
452.31,3025,41,1.78,71,90,196,21,0.239,118,15,121,69,14.4,158,131,5.356,14.7,5,0,498
452.42,3050,42,1.80,72,90,196,21,0.217,118,15,123,69,14.4,158,131,5.432,14.7,5,0,498
452.53,3100,42,1.82,71,90,196,21,0.208,118,15,125,69,14.4,158,131,5.478,14.7,5,0,498
452.64,3100,43,1.84,73,90,196,21,0.221,118,15,127,71,14.4,158,131,5.585,14.7,5,0,498
452.75,3150,44,1.86,73,90,196,21,0.248,118,15,129,71,14.4,158,131,5.600,14.7,5,0,498
452.85,3150,44,1.86,73,90,196,21,0.482,118,15,130,73,14.4,162,131,5.676,14.7,5,0,498
452.97,3175,45,1.90,74,90,196,21,0.385,118,15,130,73,14.4,168,131,5.722,14.7,5,0,499
453.08,3200,46,1.92,75,90,196,21,0.438,118,15,130,75,14.3,174,131,5.783,14.7,5,0,499
453.19,3225,47,1.96,75,90,196,21,0.460,118,15,130,75,14.3,180,131,5.844,14.7,5,0,499
453.3,3275,47,1.98,76,90,196,21,0.504,118,15,130,75,14.3,184,131,5.890,14.7,5,0,499
453.41,3300,48,2.00,77,90,196,21,0.380,118,15,130,75,14.4,184,131,5.859,14.7,5,0,499
453.51,3350,48,2.00,77,90,196,21,0.349,118,15,130,77,14.3,188,131,5.920,14.7,5,0,499
453.63,3375,48,2.00,76,90,196,21,0.482,118,15,130,77,14.4,190,131,5.844,14.7,5,0,499
453.74,3400,48,2.00,76,90,196,21,0.632,118,15,130,79,14.4,191,131,5.875,14.7,5,0,499
453.85,3425,49,2.02,76,90,196,21,0.561,118,15,130,77,14.3,191,131,5.844,14.7,5,0,499
453.96,3425,49,2.02,76,90,196,21,0.628,118,15,129,79,14.4,191,131,5.798,14.7,5,0,500
454.07,3475,49,2.02,75,90,196,21,0.694,118,15,128,79,14.3,191,131,5.814,14.7,5,0,500
454.17,3500,49,2.02,75,90,196,21,0.667,118,15,127,79,14.3,191,131,5.798,14.7,5,0,500
454.29,3525,49,2.02,74,90,196,21,0.690,118,15,126,81,14.3,191,131,5.707,14.7,5,0,500
454.4,3550,49,2.02,75,90,196,21,0.636,118,15,125,81,14.3,191,131,5.737,14.7,5,2.461322,500
454.51,3600,49,2.02,74,90,196,21,0.654,118,15,124,81,14.3,191,131,5.676,14.7,6,5.274261,500
454.62,3625,49,2.02,74,90,196,21,0.659,118,15,123,83,14.3,191,131,5.661,14.7,6,4.922644,500
454.73,3675,49,2.02,74,90,196,21,0.526,118,15,123,83,14.3,193,131,5.676,14.7,6,4.922644,500
454.83,3675,49,2.02,74,90,196,21,0.548,118,15,123,83,14.3,196,131,5.646,14.7,6,7.032349,500
454.95,3700,49,2.02,74,90,196,21,0.535,118,15,123,85,14.3,199,131,5.585,14.7,6,7.032349,501
455.06,3725,49,2.02,74,90,196,21,0.628,118,15,123,85,14.3,199,131,5.539,14.7,6,6.329113,501
455.17,3725,49,2.02,73,90,196,21,0.636,118,15,123,85,14.3,203,131,5.585,14.7,6,5.977496,501
455.28,3775,49,2.02,73,90,196,22,0.650,118,15,122,87,14.3,203,131,5.493,14.7,6,5.977496,501
455.39,3750,48,2.00,73,90,196,22,0.486,118,15,122,85,14.3,204,131,5.493,14.7,6,5.625879,501
455.5,3850,48,2.00,73,90,196,22,0.716,116,15,122,87,14.3,207,131,5.371,14.7,6,5.625879,501
455.6,3775,48,2.00,73,90,196,22,0.473,116,15,121,87,14.3,209,131,5.417,14.7,6,5.274261,501
455.72,3875,49,2.00,73,90,196,22,0.287,116,15,121,87,14.3,210,131,5.356,14.7,6,5.274261,501
455.83,3850,48,2.00,73,90,196,22,0.314,116,15,121,89,14.3,210,131,5.371,14.7,6,4.922644,501
455.94,3875,48,2.00,72,90,196,22,0.367,116,15,122,89,14.3,210,131,5.280,14.7,6,4.922644,502
456.05,3925,48,2.00,72,90,196,22,0.278,116,15,122,89,14.3,214,131,5.310,14.7,6,4.571026,502
456.16,3950,48,2.00,72,90,196,22,0.433,116,15,123,89,14.3,215,131,5.264,14.7,6,4.571026,502
456.26,3975,48,2.00,72,90,196,22,0.544,116,15,123,91,14.3,218,131,5.295,14.7,6,4.219409,502
456.38,3975,47,1.98,71,88,196,22,0.601,116,15,123,91,14.3,225,131,5.203,14.7,6,4.219409,502
456.48,3975,47,1.98,71,88,196,22,0.645,116,15,123,91,14.3,225,131,5.188,14.7,6,3.867792,502
456.58,4000,46,1.94,70,88,196,23,0.707,116,15,122,91,14.3,225,131,5.096,14.7,6,3.516174,502
456.7,4025,45,1.92,69,88,196,23,0.747,116,15,120,93,14.3,225,131,4.974,14.7,6,3.516174,502
456.81,4050,45,1.90,68,88,196,23,0.712,116,15,118,93,14.3,225,131,4.837,14.7,6,3.164557,502
456.92,4025,44,1.88,67,88,196,23,0.486,114,15,116,93,14.3,226,131,4.654,14.7,6,3.164557,503
457.03,4075,42,1.84,65,88,196,23,0.177,114,15,116,95,14.3,226,131,4.120,14.7,6,2.812939,503
457.14,4075,41,1.78,62,88,196,24,0.115,114,15,118,93,14.3,226,131,4.013,14.7,6,2.812939,503
457.25,4100,40,1.76,62,88,196,24,9.724,114,15,120,93,14.3,226,131,4.013,14.7,6,2.461322,503
457.35,4100,40,1.73,60,88,196,25,0.111,114,15,122,95,14.3,226,131,3.937,14.7,6,2.109704,503
457.47,4100,35,1.67,57,88,196,26,0.159,126,11,125,95,14.3,226,131,4.059,14.7,6,2.109704,503
457.58,4100,22,1.31,44,88,196,32,0.844,126,11,125,93,14.3,227,131,2.625,14.7,6,0,503
457.69,3975,0,0.51,21,88,196,27,0.897,128,3,124,93,14.3,227,131,1.114,14.7,6,0,503
457.8,3725,0,0.51,17,88,196,27,0.787,128,3,128,93,14.2,227,130,0.839,14.7,6,0,503
457.91,3525,0,0.51,15,88,196,27,0.791,128,3,127,91,14.2,227,129,0.763,14.7,6,0,504
458.01,3300,0,0.51,15,88,196,27,0.751,128,3,126,93,14.2,227,128,0.778,14.7,6,0,504
458.13,3075,0,0.51,15,88,196,27,0.774,128,3,125,93,14.2,227,126,0.778,14.7,6,0,504</code>
08-09-2005, 10:27 PM
#13
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Car: 91 Red Sled
Axle/Gears: 10bolt Richmond 3.73 Torsen
Monte, is your distributor base timing set correctly in the chip? You shouldn't be tickling the knock sensor with 21 degrees at part throttle and rather high rpm.
If you could send me your whole bin I'll take a quick look to see if any other tables might be off causing you headaches.
What's your exact engine setup, gas octane?
You've taken out a bunch of timing so it's odd that you're tickling the knock sensor. The other thing I noticed is your o2 sensor x-counts. How old is the sensor? It looks to be a little sluggish with the x-counts and the BLM's are showing what happens with an old o2 sensor going bad... BLM's dip.
If you could send me your whole bin I'll take a quick look to see if any other tables might be off causing you headaches.
What's your exact engine setup, gas octane?
You've taken out a bunch of timing so it's odd that you're tickling the knock sensor. The other thing I noticed is your o2 sensor x-counts. How old is the sensor? It looks to be a little sluggish with the x-counts and the BLM's are showing what happens with an old o2 sensor going bad... BLM's dip.
08-10-2005, 11:50 AM
#14
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Car: 1988 Monte Carlo SS
Engine: 5.7L TPI
Transmission: T5
Axle/Gears: 3.73
Originally posted by JPrevost
Monte, is your distributor base timing set correctly in the chip?
yes
You shouldn't be tickling the knock sensor with 21 degrees at part throttle and rather high rpm.
If you could send me your whole bin I'll take a quick look to see if any other tables might be off causing you headaches.
You have email.
What's your exact engine setup, gas octane?
You've taken out a bunch of timing so it's odd that you're tickling the knock sensor.
350, aluminum ZZ3 heads, stock TPI intake, 22lb injectors, ~10.5:1, 87 octane (tickles the knock ensor with 91 as well), T5 transmission, 2.73 gears in ~3600lb car, nets under 10L/100km just cruising around
The other thing I noticed is your o2 sensor x-counts. How old is the sensor? It looks to be a little sluggish with the x-counts and the BLM's are showing what happens with an old o2 sensor going bad... BLM's dip.
Its old (Delco though). I'll go get a new one.
Monte, is your distributor base timing set correctly in the chip?
yes
You shouldn't be tickling the knock sensor with 21 degrees at part throttle and rather high rpm.
If you could send me your whole bin I'll take a quick look to see if any other tables might be off causing you headaches.
You have email.
What's your exact engine setup, gas octane?
You've taken out a bunch of timing so it's odd that you're tickling the knock sensor.
350, aluminum ZZ3 heads, stock TPI intake, 22lb injectors, ~10.5:1, 87 octane (tickles the knock ensor with 91 as well), T5 transmission, 2.73 gears in ~3600lb car, nets under 10L/100km just cruising around
The other thing I noticed is your o2 sensor x-counts. How old is the sensor? It looks to be a little sluggish with the x-counts and the BLM's are showing what happens with an old o2 sensor going bad... BLM's dip.
Its old (Delco though). I'll go get a new one.
08-11-2005, 02:05 PM
#15
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Car: 1991 Camaro Z28
Engine: 350
Transmission: 700R4
I'm trying to sort out my Vortec timing table as well. JPrevost, what do you mean when you say the timing table is "flat"? I know what "flat" is but do you mean constant timing in a given region? If so, how big is the flat region and where does it lie? Also, what does an "old timing table" look like? I don't have much experience with non computer controled dizzys which I'm guessing is what you're talking about.
Any other tips on the vortec tables would be great too!
Thanks
Any other tips on the vortec tables would be great too!
Thanks
08-11-2005, 02:57 PM
#16
My carbed setup has the MSD dist set for 16 initial and 28 total.
Full adv is a straight line from about 1200 to 3000 rpm.
No vac adv at idle with a max of 10 deg vac adv added in the cruise area. Most people will run vac adv at idle to end up in the 22-25 degree region at idle. I can't run vac adv at idle on my setup.
It's a 11-1 383 with vortec heads. My old 280 112lsa hyd cam would handle 34 total at the same 3000 rpm.
Stock mech HEI modules have a built in approximate 1 deg. per 1000 rpm retard starting at 4k or so. ECM controlled dist. don't have this. Stock mech. dist will reach full advance any where from 3500 to 4500. They can also have up 22 deg of vac adv. All the ones I've seen were 15 or 18.
edit: by straight line, I mean straight from 16 to 28 over the 1800 rpm delta. Or 1.0 deg per 150 rpm.
Full adv is a straight line from about 1200 to 3000 rpm.
No vac adv at idle with a max of 10 deg vac adv added in the cruise area. Most people will run vac adv at idle to end up in the 22-25 degree region at idle. I can't run vac adv at idle on my setup.
It's a 11-1 383 with vortec heads. My old 280 112lsa hyd cam would handle 34 total at the same 3000 rpm.
Stock mech HEI modules have a built in approximate 1 deg. per 1000 rpm retard starting at 4k or so. ECM controlled dist. don't have this. Stock mech. dist will reach full advance any where from 3500 to 4500. They can also have up 22 deg of vac adv. All the ones I've seen were 15 or 18.
edit: by straight line, I mean straight from 16 to 28 over the 1800 rpm delta. Or 1.0 deg per 150 rpm.
Last edited by Z69; 08-11-2005 at 06:02 PM.
08-11-2005, 05:37 PM
#17
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Car: 90 454SS
Engine: 454 TBI
Transmission: TH400
Recently installed a set of the Vortec BBC heads.
Not too many people have used these and very few resources are available for questions.
Chamber volume is 100 cc vs 118 for the 781's I removed, so I also got a boost in CR from 7.8 to 9.0.
Wondering if the same logic would apply as to the smallblock Vortecs? Seems so as they share the same style of chamber.
Not too many people have used these and very few resources are available for questions.
Chamber volume is 100 cc vs 118 for the 781's I removed, so I also got a boost in CR from 7.8 to 9.0.
Wondering if the same logic would apply as to the smallblock Vortecs? Seems so as they share the same style of chamber.
08-11-2005, 05:57 PM
#18
Post a pic of the chamber if you can.
or email it to me. The link below works.
Due to the bigger bore, I'd think they would take a little more than the sb heads. Depends on a lot of things.
BBC usually can't tolerate as much timing as a sbc.
So now 36-38 with a high dynamic cylinder pressure might work.
or email it to me. The link below works.
Due to the bigger bore, I'd think they would take a little more than the sb heads. Depends on a lot of things.
BBC usually can't tolerate as much timing as a sbc.
So now 36-38 with a high dynamic cylinder pressure might work.
Last edited by Z69; 08-11-2005 at 06:00 PM.
08-24-2005, 12:02 PM
#19
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Car: 1988 Monte Carlo SS
Engine: 5.7L TPI
Transmission: T5
Axle/Gears: 3.73
I thought I'd take a couple of minutes and follow up. I got rid of my knocking problem by data logging with the WBO2 (which I should have done earlier). I had a AE lean spot and too much spark advance in the problem area. This motor of mine just doesn't want much SA to be happy. So be it...
Thanks for the help guys.
Thanks for the help guys.
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