Budgetbracket

So me and one of my buddies have decided to have a budget 3k bracket car build and see who can build a car him with a thirdgen Camaro and me with a thirdgen firebird.The rules are as follows...
1. 3k budget and only 1700$ can go to the motor
2. Has to have a roll bar
3. Has to have Stock drive train such as 700r4 and 10 bolt rearend but they can be beefed up
4. Motor has to be a SBC 350 no limits on what can do to it just has to be no more 1700$ in the motor
5. Any parts laying around that already own don't affect the budget
6. Sicks/radials allowed but not required
7. Race is fall of 2023

With that being said I plan to gut the car and run no hood to do my weight reduction. I also have in mind of running mickey Thompson radials on the back for traction. I done have a 350 block bored .30 over laying in shop and a set of forged flat top Pistons I had bought for a previous build along with a Holley 750 double pumper that just needs a rebuild kit. Also have vortec heads that have done been worked over and square ported. I also have a 700r4 shift kit and Corvette servo laying around and QA1 shocks and struts somewhere. (have a few thirdgens lol) with that being said I have to find a intake for carb swap for vortech heads and headers plus a cam kit (Iunati .515/.515 cam and lifter and springs and timing gear kit) I plan on running cast rods/cast crank to save money cause have those laying around as well for the 350. Also would like to get a MSD rev limiter box just Incase accidentally slap the 700r4 from thrid into neutral by mistake. As well as electric water pump. I was also thinking I need to get a performance torque arm to help it get off the line and maybe a stall converter to help it get off the line if in the budget plus would need a small fuel cell along with electric fuel pump. So far I've figured it up to like 2500+ on everything I would need so just asking the guys who have maybe done something similar if I'm missing anything or if yall would reccomend anything. Also should mention my plan is to just get regular rebuild kit for 700r4 and hope for the best as well as Lincoln log my rearend

skinny z

Are the parts you've listed as having "laying around" as well as the car itself outside of the 3k budget?
In other words you'll need/want:
Roll bar. (probably not required)
Tires (Definitely if you want to win)
Intake (it's a plus for having Vortec heads already)
Valvetrain including cam (pay a lot of attention to the spec).
MSD box with rev limiter (not essential)
Electric water pump (I wouldn't bother)
"Performance" torque arm ( you can get away without it but a new polyurethane bushing for sure)
Stall convertor (definitely but $$)
Gaskets.
Rebuild kits for various.
Fluids. Lots of fluids.

How fast do you intend to go?
What rear gear do you have?
Might consider LCA relocation brackets. Traction is key.
New u-joints.

You'll eat all of that 3k unless you find suitable used parts on the cheap.

Oh yeah. Welcome to Thirdgen.

skinny z

A little follow up.
Build this 350. Pay attention to that cam spec. It's vital.
https://www.motortrend.com/news/0611...c-small-block/
Get a stall convertor.
3.73 gear at a minimum.
Slicks ( or nearly so).
Open headers. No mufflers. But you have to have about a 16-18' extension on the header collector. That's also vital.
Get it as light as possible.
You'll be reasonably quick but I doubt quick enough to need a roll bar. But you never know.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Trans wont last long lol gonna need a bit of that budget in a good build. Might be cheaper to find a stock th400

skinny z

True enough.
My used 700 with the basic upgrades: .500" boost valve, "Corvette" servo, TransGo shift kit (a couple of other items that escape me at the moment) went a long ways before the input splines on the convertor let go. That said, it wasn't the best shifting transmission, most notably the 2-3 shift, but it did get me into the 12's.
But a decent rebuild with a few internal parts, like clutches, will go a long ways.

Budgetbracket

You guys bring up some good points and yes the parts laying around don't count to the budget for the car itself cause he done had stuff laying around and I done have sfuff laying around. The 700r4 I know can take some abuse and for budget constrains of right now I'm just gonna let it ride and after our race ordeal I'll probably pull it and put something else or a complete street/strip rebuild on it. And the roll bar is guess more of a safety thing just Incase something was to happen and things go south on the track. But I do agree with you that new bushings maybe more beneficial that a torque arm. I've built the exact combo of motor I stated before and it made about 450 HP to the flywheel but I'm open to ideas cause this the first time I'll be building a bracket type car and ideally with researching other builds and watching their times I'm thinking what I had in mind could make it low 12's

Budgetbracket

I had also thought about subframe connectors as well as a wonderbar for stability

skinny z

Post those engine specs if you can. I'd like to see the cam in particular. Adv duration, duration at .050", LSA and where you had the ICL. I'm alway eager to learn what's been done and what's proven successful. 450 HP out of 350 cubes is no mean feat. RPM?
What are the spring specs? Have your Vortecs been modified or do you rely on a small diameter conical spring? (Cheap and easy is a PAC 1218/1219 or COMP 26915/26918. Drop in with no machining.)
I get the cage for safety but low 12's, maybe 110 MPH means you're outside of the rules requiring one. If the budget allows, then go for it. Otherwise, my little 350 at 12.5/108 had no roll bar and so far, I've survived. Subframe connectors and a wonder bar are things I would look at after the grudge race with your buddy. They won't make you go any faster but are certainly required in the long term.

You mentioned taking weight out of it and that's the least expensive thing you can do. As in free. If it's strictly a track car, consider taking the crash bars out of the doors. Maybe look at the crash absorbers front and rear too. Also consider lightweight wheels if can get them on the cheap.

FWIW, I've considered building a drag only car myself. I've got a very nice 82 Berlinetta with no drivetrain sitting on stands in my driveway. Gutting it and /or cutting it up for a race car wouldn't hurt my feelings in the least.
But that's another story for another time.

Budgetbracket

Idk every little detail like flow numbers or anything like that but this was the 350 that was built for my dad's 85 Z28 and lasted for 13 years till one day racing a LS swapped square body he accidentally shifted from third to neutral and over revved and we believe bent the #5 rod (motor hasn't been tore apart yet cause he had done built another for it) but it was cast crank I believe 2 piece rear main I wanna say it had 5140 forged rods but can't remember specs of em off top of the head. Had hypertonic forged flat top Pistons. 062 heads with beehive springs a comps cam .480 lift camshaft a low profile Dual plane rpm performer and a Edelbrock 700 carb. The transmission lasted for two years than had a monster rebuild kit done to it with a 3200 stall I believe (could be wrong) 4th gen rearend swap we never dynoed the car but it could beat a 2002 ls1 Camaro with a big cam by about half a car length so our always guesstimate based off those factors was maybe 425 or a little more at the flywheel

Budgetbracket

I forgot to answer the cam specs really I know it was like a 2000-5500 RPM cam cause about 5000 rpm is where it felt like you were getting everything you were gonna get from it. It was built for a dirt track guy than he just never came and got it or payed for it so was put in the Camaro

skinny z

Not too far removed from my 1st Vortec headed engine but as a street car, and a heavy one at 3700 lbs (w/driver), it never got me into the 12's.
That recipe was:
350: 4.00” x 3.48”
Speed Pro hypereutectic 5 cc piston H345NCP
Resized stock rods w/ ARP bolts
Stock cast crank
.030” deck
600 Holley
RPM Air Gap
Vortec heads (stock)
Comp 268H flat tappet w/ 1.5 rockers. 268 adv, 218 @ 050”, 60 ABDC IVC.
Corteco 55063 head gasket .028” x 4.130”
Short headers
9.8 SCR / 8.12 DCR
Cranking pressure 200-205

The next iteration was a roller cam and 1.6 rockers. .020" overbore and 10/10 on the crank.
353: 4.020” x 3.48”
5 cc piston
Resized stock rods w/ ARP bolts
Stock cast crank
.030” deck
670 Holley
RPM Air Gap
Vortec heads. Decked .006”. 63 cc (?)
Comp XR276HR. 276/282, 224/230, 110 LSA, 106 ICL, 64 ABDC IVC
Victor Reinz 5746 head gasket .026” x 4.120”
Mid length headers
Shitty exhaust
10.05 SCR / 8.08 DCR
Cranking pressure 185-190
High 12's at 106(+/-)

That was a great little engine. Went forever until I cooked it towing a trailer for 2500 miles with the lockup convertor out to lunch.
No 450 HP though. I'd say, on a good day stripped down on the dyno, it might have made 400 HP. Maybe more. Maybe less. Hard to say now.

Budgetbracket

That sounds close to about the new motor that he just built lol except for had heads works and square ported I believe with beehive springs and went retro roller cam setup with .540 lift roller cam and upgraded to mid rise dual plane. I know it's a motor trend 350 build but can't find the link myself at the moment and they made 500 at the flywheel so he's hoping for at least 475

skinny z

I haven't seen a Vortec headed 350 making 500 HP but that doesn't mean it isn't out there. Those heads, when ported by the right person, have the potential to make a lot of power.
There a few internet posters I know of, and reputable folks from what I can tell, that are deep into the 11's with a SBC, reworked Vortecs and a drag chassis.
It's all in the combination of parts. Both engine and car.

I'll be interested in seeing how all of this shakes out for you. Might give me an new build direction.

Budgetbracket

Ill definitely be sure to keep the forum updated as I get going with it I'm currently trying to get my other project a 1972 c20 back on the road with a new motor and rearend swap so it will probably won't be till December when I can start on the budget car just wanted to post it and see what other people have done to see if I was on the right track or if needed to rethink a couple ideas which you've helped tremendously in pointing out something aren't really necessary considering I won't be building a monster of a drag car

skinny z

Good luck. It'll be a year before I'm back on track myself.

AlkyIROC

Keep it cheap. Hmmm. All the good points have already been mentioned. Unless you get real good with a correct combination of parts, you will probably not be requiring a roll bar. NHRA rules state that it is required when running 11.49 and quicker in the 1/4 mile. As nice as an engine you always intend to build, most people will get that reality boot to the head when they make a pass down the track only to find out they're not making anywhere close to what they expected. 500 HP won't run 12's if you can't get the power to the ground.

I race at altitude. When I first got my car it had a smog head low budget 383 with cast 350 pistons and a really good solid cam. OEM 400 rods and rod bolts. 700R4 trans and around a 2400 stall converter going through 3.70 gears in the diff. First pass down the track and it ran 15.0 Tinkered with it all summer and I think I managed a 14.8 by the end of the season. That winter, I swapped out the heads for some heavily ported camel heads with large valves. Also swapped out the 700R4 for a TH350 and a 3800 stall converter to better match the camshaft. First pass of the new season it ran 12.0 and everyone was asking where I hid the NOS bottle. Had to get a roll bar installed before the next race weekend as the cutoff at that time was 12.0.

At the end of the second season, the stock rod bolts didn't like spinning to 7000 rpm and I blew up the engine on the last pass of the season. Got about 200 passes on the engine before it failed. Went BBC after that and never looked back.

Too bad you limited yourself to a SBC 350. A junkyard 5.3 or 6.0L LS engine can be an easy swap and run circles around a SBC without doing much to it.

skinny z

I can certainly agree on most points if not all.
What I've I've learned is that 500 HP, or let's say 400 HP to keep it in perspective, might be the peak HP as seen by the dyno. BUT, that's just a peak HP value. A car that's not well sorted, most specifically the transmission and if an automatic, the converter, will only see that peak a short amount of time. It's the average HP, or torque actually, seen at the tires that really counts.
Case in point: I made 400 HP in one of my 350 iterations but the RPM's at the drag strip were rarely at the peak HP RPM. Instead, at the start and at each shift I had to climb through 2 or 3 thousand RPM to the next shift. As a result, average torque was down across the board.
As Alky points out (that username still kills me), a change to a 3800 stall made a world of difference. We experienced the same thing when going from from an off the shelf TCI 10" , which saw the 1-2 shift of the TH700 drop almost 3000 RPM. Well below peak torque. 6500 in 1st to less than 4000 in 2nd. A change to spec'd Yank and the RPMs never fell below 5000 at any shift. The car picked up several tenths both at the 60' and the top end. But a quality converter isn't cheap. Or probably within this budget.

Logan Bryant

Best time so far for my car was 11.55 @ 117. Setup is as described with 355 with vortec heads. Speed pro flat top pistons. Heads have Ls3 beehive springs with 1.6 roller rockers. Comp 12-246-3 camshaft. Summit racing stage 3 intake. Holley 750 carb. Turbo 350 with a summit racing 3k converter. For the most part a very budget setup. Also if you are still interested in a cheap cage, I picked up the jegs branded one that was already prefabed for our cars.

skinny z

Do you have a project thread? I wouldn't mind a few more details.
A Vortec headed 350 at 117 MPH is right up my alley.

Logan Bryant

I do not have a project thread. What else are you interested in?

skinny z

Race weight, gearing, converter, tire, suspension.
The time slip is impressive when compared to my street car's best of 12.4@109 (corrected). The gearing and suspension are totally unsuited to the drag strip. Not to mention a race weight of 3700 lbs.
That kind of gain (11.55@117) represents a big jump from my power levels and drivetrain/chassis configuration. By my calculations it would take another 50 rwhp for me just to break into the 11's. That is if I can get it to hook like it used to.

Logan Bryant

Not sure on race weight. Honestly with me in it, guessing around 33-3400 with me in it. Has a Ford 9" with 4.11 gears. Summit racing 2800-3100 converter. Running skinnies up front, with Hoosier 28x10.5x15 C07s. Have Lakewood drag struts up front. Cheap shocks in the rear (currently, plan to change soon). Adjustable spohn torque arm, adjustable umi panhard and lower control arms.

skinny z

Well, there's almost a half second just in weight differential. So that makes sense.
What's your typical 60' ?

Logan Bryant

Usually 1.57-1.58

skinny z

That would nirvana for me. Best so far is 1.7 flat. Then the power level went up, the tires were getting old and the 60' slipped to 1.8-1.9.
Interestingly, I still pulled off my best pass with the depressed 60' time which tells me that there was more in it if I could get it to hook.
What's the saying? A tenth in the 60 is two tenths at the stripe?

New engine and new converter are in the books already and soon new tires too. I should be ready for next season. Hopefully.

Thanks for posting up.