project89

iTrader: (1)

ok heres my question, friend who has been helping me out with my twin turbo iroc has a brand new unmachined gm perfomance parts block which can be bored out the same as a sbc 400

some ppl are working on getting a x275 type class here at out local track and it very well may happen.

if it does my plan is to build a 434ci sb with twin 66 mm turbos
434ci
single plane efi intake
afr 227's
twin t66 turbos

how good is the gm block i can get it cheap its a 2 bolt block but since it needs to be finish machined i would have billet 4 bolt splayed caps installed
and have it setup for roller lifters

this is a complete raw block cyls,lifter bores,and i belive the mains all need finishing machine work, the cam tunnel looks like it has already been done since it has cam bearings instaled

this block is deffinatly heavy compared to a oem block u pull out of any car with a sb in it

DIGGLER

iTrader: (1)

neither, i would do a little m. thats a combo good for well over 1000hp.

project89

iTrader: (1)

im getting more info on the block now from him, i forgot to get the numbers off it and take a pic of the paper work so i can research it but it apears to be an unfinished rocket block possibly

told him to just go measure the pan rails real fast so i can see if they are spread

project89

iTrader: (1)

its a tall deck block , and the pan rails are spread casting number comes back as a rocket block.

seems weird it has unfinished bores and lifter bores are also unfinished.
he got this block off ebay years ago and just had it sitting
bbc cam bearings
400 mains
wet sump
455ci max displacement
im not to familiar with the rocket blocks good piece or still go with a lil m ?
he wants 2,200 for it which is what he paid for it

gp90gta

iTrader: (1)

If your going turbo I wouldn't spend the money on a tall deck, but then again we don't know your goals.

project89

iTrader: (1)

well for the price im considering it, only if its going to be able to handle the kind of power i plan on making.
obviously to be somewhat competive in x275 im going to have to go after some pretty lofty power numbers, mid 5's to mid high 5's in the 1/8th should get me there

and nitrous is out of the question if i build this its going to be turbocharged

this is something that once i build it its cant be a gamble like my current engine.so if the rocket block isnt going to take the power im going to have to look into other blocks

JesasaurusRex

iTrader: (3)

better shoot for some better #s than that, i'm gonna take a stab and say mid-high 5s won't be competitive in an x275 class

DIGGLER

iTrader: (1)

you could go low 5's with a pair of 66's on a 434 without too much trouble.... IN A CAR SETUP TO DO THAT. and thats where it REALLY starts getting expensive. building this motor alone will be a handfull of thousands, and then youll be looking at another few thousand in the pair of turbos, wastegates, bov's, intercooler, tubing and other stuff.
couple thousand dollar trans that can handle that sort of car, along with a $900+ for a converter.
and then you have to get the car itself sorted out.
anybody that mentions x275, i tell them "get out your checkbook". lol

86iroc2try

I have a dart shp block and they told me not to push it past 1000hp.

X275 requires $15-20k motor and a top end trans and rear...power management ignition..etc...

Be careful...but good luck

project89

iTrader: (1)

my plan build involves as mentioned a 434 ci shortblock 9.5-1 cr, afr 227 heads, a solid roller cam grind tbd , a good single plane efi intake ,120+ pound injectors,twin prescision 66's , run with a megasquirt ems ,utilizing boost control,launch control and an anti rev/tracrtion control system .if i had to save a lil bit of money id be willing to try out a pair of the ebay gt45's these have 70mm compressors and 83mm turbines and could be a good budget turbo to go out and try the whole setup on before laying down alot of money for a pair of precsisions

im not to sure what do do witht he ignition system yet my final choice on the megasquirt version will dictate what i can use, chances are a megasquirt 3 with 3x exspansion board will be what i go with along with lsx cop ignition setup


im going to back that up with a built 4l80 /trans brake converter tbd
rear is taken care of as i already sourced a s60 rear with 3:73's obviously ill have to change the gear

as far as suspension i want to see what the majority of the guys running fbodys are doing/using and then go from there

DIGGLER

iTrader: (1)

ebay turbos- i wouldnt do it. after spending thousands and thousands of dollars on the engine build, it would be a shame for turbo guts to go through the engine an ruin half the pistons, valves, combustion chambers, and cylinder bores. either build a nice motor, put nice turbos on top of it, or use a cheap motor to put cheap turbos on.

4l80e- will be very expensive and weigh more than a th400. also, how much will overdrive really be needed when the rear gear is a ~3.50 with a 28" tire? a th400 would be plenty streetable, imo and much cheaper and weigh less.

suspension- you will need absolutley everything you can unbolt and replace. a good working car is more important than the power it makes.

project89

iTrader: (1)

u are absolutly right, i thought about it after i typed it and while i have had excellent results with ebay turbos, i wouldnt chance it on this engine. cause of course ive never had one go bad but thay have all been cheap engines. the second i bolt them on an exspensive one is when it would let loose lol

i already have the 4l80 and its down to be rebuilt right now, friend is doing the rebuild so labor is pretty much free, i just lend him a hand with his projects or side jobs when he needs it.and parts are deffinatly not cheap for it


oh i figured as much with the suspension im still figuring out which way im going to go on it though

JesasaurusRex

iTrader: (3)

throw the 4l80 to the way side and get a glide

1gary

The Iron Eagle blocks are the replacement for the Rocket blocks.Unless you own a machine shop to finish machine the Rocket would be very expensive.Then the block is only the beginning,to fill either with the required custom parts is going to cost a bundle.

We went through this twice.Once on a raw casting Bowtie 4.3 and again two seasons ago with lifter bores on a 565.The 565 took two machine shops not getting right and a bunch of broken valve train parts till we finally hone them ourselves to fix it right. Once you step through that door,you open a whole new ball game in costs.

project89

iTrader: (1)

the mains and cam tunel are already finished , so it would need bores and lifter bores finished, any idea on around what that would cost to get done?

ill have to look up the iron eagle blocks and see what the cost is

for the rocket block the only special parts are the oil pan,cam with bbc cam bearings and timing set aint it

1gary

Our current 632 cost $50,000.That was calling in serious favors from racing for yrs.These blocks are made for race teams with a machine shop in-house so they can finish machine them to their specs and corporate sponsorship money which is tough to compete with on your own dime.

project89

iTrader: (1)

i just saw ur post on hr.com i think im going to just buy an iron eagle.
prolly still buy the rocket block since i can get it for 2,200 and ill stick it on the shelf, im sure ill be able to sell it down the road for more then i paid for it

1gary

A rotating assembly gets expensive quick.Your not guying some cheap imported junk for that. There is a bunch of guys the I have seen at the auctions buy into blocks like that unfinished not knowing what it takes to complete them and then show up the next yr trying to sell them off.

project89

iTrader: (1)

i already know there wont be anything cheap about building this thing no matter which way i go with it.

this will prolly be my most exspensive thing ive ever built for myself,just wish i was still in new jersey working in my familys machine/chassi/racecar shop this would make things so much easier and cheaper lol

1gary

I gota take off for now.The figure I quoted for the 632 is real. The paint for sponsorship on the side of the car got expensive is the in part the only reason we where able to swing it ourselves. When you call Crower for the parts you need to have,it then hits you why did I spend the money for this raw casting block in the first place. The 2,200 is only the beginning and even that need bucks to make useable. For us,I wouldn't buy it and save the money for atleast a finished machined Iron Eagle.

1gary

I want to add this.I'm not bragging here.My partner and I started drag racing back in the mid 1960's and we got together in the mid 1970's. We had been racing since that time mainly in 9.90 cars and honestly because the way we operated I can't even begin to tell you how many of them we have had over the yrs.

The point here is as it was said in another post that to move from a 10 second car to a 9.0 car a is expensive jump. And each move like that holds true but gets more expensive.So to speak it does thin the herd somewhat.

I just don't want anyone to think I am saying not to to work towards your goals. If a Iron Eagle is what you want or if a build of a Rocket block is what your wanting,go for it. All I am doing is trying to prepare you for what the costs are likely to be.

Last yr we ran a 565 and it truly wasn't enough.Hell we are up against a guy who has a very successful 15 bay tranny shop and another independent wealthy Canadian who travels with a stacker and a well over a $100,000 Hemi in his car just to name acouple.So the choice was to make the move to a 632 or get out of the class.

With all that money and N.H.R.A and I.H.R.A. still calls it "Sportsman Racing". Yeah that is the bad joke for sure................

I very much look forward to your build post thread. I'll be cheering you on from the cheap seats here.

1BADRZ28

iTrader: (2)

if you are seriously building a 434 and purchasing a new block. I'd be buying the tall deck all day long. Your pistons will thank you. That 4 inch stroke really pulls out the piston and causes alot of rocking towards the bottom of the bore and a better piston to rod ratio will be achieved.

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

this sounds like a fun build...won't be competitive in x275...but fun none-the-less

project89

iTrader: (1)

uess i shoudl have specified if we get the x275 class here it will be based off current 275 rules with some changes to keep the cost down and playing field a lil more level. atleats according to the discusiion on my local forums.

if the class dosent come to be ill still end up with one bad *** street car either way

still a tossup on the combo as im still reasearching more but yeah it is looking like the tall deck block will be the way to go

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

X275 is in the 4.6x's over here on the east coast, with some guy dipping into the .40s...a high 5 sec car won't do it over here. I'm glad some folks are trying to build a class for the budget minded guy. That's called Ultimate Street here...it was supposed to be a 5.40 class. The record stands at 5.0x from a nitrous small block malibu wagon (Eric kenward)

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Our local car scene wanted to do a similar class but they didnt allow more than 370 inch cubes and only single power adders. So i was out but we never got it running

How heavy will car be?

Mid 5's is easy under 3300 lbs. my street setup on weak launch went 6.2's. Heavy car and no more than 800 hp id say

Shp is more than enough. Get the shp pro block. It will do a 1000 and that will push a car deep into the 5's when setup right

I dont think you need 4" stroke. With regular deck id rather see more piston in there with good ring pack. Boost will make power. Less stroke will help reduce torque which will help that thing hook up on small 275's. Id go afr 235-245's on that motor.

Motor making the power is easy part. Getting it down in that chassis consistantly is hard part.

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

25.x chassis time too

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

That would be nice but if its a local class where a mid 5 may be competitive then it only needs certified to 8.50 which i believe is 10-12 point? Just estimating 5.5's is 8.5-8.6's et

project89

iTrader: (1)

im still heitant on buying any parts just yet just to make sure if this happens they dont limit ci's
i did already buy the rocket block but its going on the shelf to sell down the road,as i gary mentioned it will be cheaper to buy a finished iron eagle block

car currently sits at 35xx pounds witht he current twin turbo sb and 10 pt cage ,with a switch to a chromoly cage and aluminum heads i know i can get some wieght out

im not going to mess with an shp if this gets built id be to afriad to lean on the thing as the combo should make more then 1000hp.
as far as the heads i thought the same but id be afriad of a head that large when i want to street drive the car.

i wanna be able to hop in this thing and drive it around on the streets when i feel the need . i have a friend who built a 383 with 220 afrs ,and a procharger and that thing is a complete dog on the street, granted once he steps up the drive on the procharger it will be a lil better

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Nonsense lol i drive just fine on street with a 245 head on my 406. Its pretty torquey off idle but the cam and turbos set powerband at 4000-7000 rpm so you need to have a 4000+ converter to take full advantage. Big inch sbc needs airflow and turning higher rpms needs large turbine sides to reduce backpressure. This as you know raises boost threshold. My car has 3500 stall. It used to be 4000-4200 with small heads and cam. Torque curve moved higher so converter doesnt stall up as much. So boost response isnt as good when rpms are low. It sometimes breaks up. Over 3500 tho its alive so a restall is coming.
But it is very tame on the street, no issues down low. It feels better than the old combo off boost while driving from what i can remember. i like the new power band and torque curve. Last combo went into boost too quicky and made car hard to pilot lol. Spun tire too much on any boost. New setup gradually comes in better and hooks much better.

But those heads will do what you need and then some. Its just those big afr heads move a ton of air and still a faster port than most heads so you will have response.

JesasaurusRex

iTrader: (3)

project89, out of curiosity, how fast of a car have you ever built & how fast of a car have you driven?

project89

iTrader: (1)

9 second pump gas 4 door savoy



492 ci blown hemi for the tad


was going to get liscenced for tad but got scared my first hit,i was way to young and way to inexperianced to even attemp it at the time
engine above is for the shops car


ive done tons of fuel engines and alky engines but i lack in other areas most of the engines if done in the shop was a combination of customer bought parts.

all the high dollar drag stuff was just whatever was the best at the time so there was really no selecting different parts for them

fastest ive gone is high 9's on a big tire car

project89

iTrader: (1)

few more cars

project89

iTrader: (1)

hey orr u are running a solid roller cam right ?
if so what lifters did u go with, im thinking id go with large body jesel or morels

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

No i am still hydraulic roller running morel lifters. Their performance ones but not the limited travel version. Cam is a big hyd roller tho, .640 lift. Runs great. I am still nervous about solid rollers on the street with alot of idle time.

project89

iTrader: (1)

how much spring presure are u running with those

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

After i shim the springs to correct install height it should be 180 lbs seat and 450 open. Actually it may be closer to 460 open now. Springs are 150 now and i am floating at high boost. They were setup wrong :doh
Guys run these lifters to 200-220 seat and 500 open. That should handle any hyd roller to 7500 rpm with light 8mm valves found in afr heads. You can get up near .700" with a hyd roller. If you did shp pro block with bbc cam core you can get a bigger lobe circle which will help get lift while keeping valvetrain stable. Or bore cam tunnel to ls1 core size and get a custom grind for that. I think ls cam core is bigger still. Putting alot of lobe lift on a standard or reduced base circle on a sbc with possible 4" stroke you are planning could really stress things lol it will work but could be better. Morels are a tough lifter tho but pricey ~600 bucks

project89

iTrader: (1)

i may have to rethink my solid roller then, wow thats half the price of the jesels i may just have to go that route

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Afr 227's have the 60/40 spacing which may require offset rockers which isnt huge deal. Most brands have some that will work

Shagwell

Just for a note, a buddy of mine has been running 5.0x's in x275 trim for a couple years now on an SHP block(iirc, 421ci). - Just kicked a rod this past weekend and didn't get the block so it will continue on.

He had been killing some motors with fully prepped/splayed cap GM 509 blocks before the SHP went in.



The current/2013 X275 rules are a 4.8x-4.7x class. Ultra street is trying to reel that back, but Kenward's 5.0x just showed what can be done inside those rules as well.

DIGGLER

iTrader: (1)

is it filled or anything special? nitrous, turbo, or blower?
thats putting it down, no doubt. the shp is $600 or so cheaper than the little m. i would guess hes making a good 12-1500hp or so with it.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Yeah at that level what is another 600-700 bucks?? Might as well get lil m. It is stronger. Its heavier and material test reports have shown composition is harder as well on hardness tests. Dont have the data but it was posted somewhere on another forum. There was a chinese copy of dart blocks circulating around that caused some ppl issues and a shop tested the blocks. Found the chinese one alot softer than shp and lil m was harder than both and heavier.

I went shp cuz at the time i wanted to reuse all the factory style lifters and stuff. Now i wish i didnt with this new combo. I have link bar lifters now so no need for roller cam provisions. Retainer plate is still nice tho

Shagwell

No filler, heavy dose of nitrous. - Enrique Pirez, goes by "the joker" on various forums including YB. He's been 5.07-5.09 many times on a single stage and is not yet leaning on it hard.

The SHP is $600 cheaper but also comes mostly machined at that price vs the Little M needing several hundred more in machine work to finish it out to your specs after recieving it. - It works out to over $1k difference in the end.

DIGGLER

iTrader: (1)

didnt realize there was machining differences between the two. that really does make the shp look good for the money. orr, i wouldnt be too worried about it breaking, i have head of them being pushed pretty hard, especially what pirez is doing with his nitrous combo. but if starting from scratch i would think long and hard about the little m at those levels.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Yeah my turbo car should be softer on the block than heavy nitrous use. I hope to hit 1000 at the tires but it will be awhile before i get there. I think it will hold but rpm may hurt it some. I may be turning 6800 rpm or tad more. 87 TA has seen some evidence of main caps walking on his shp nitrous mill but he turned 7300 i think but hes at about my current power levels. We shall see

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

"The SHP is $600 cheaper but also comes mostly machined at that price"

That is precisely why I went with the SHP block. Of course I am not making the power you guys are.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Shp comes with alot of machine work but it still should be checked and then likely decked and honed to your rotating assembly. Thats what i did with mine from cnc blocks northeast. 1799 total fully machined blueprinted and ready to assemble. I forgot what he said the lil m costs after prep. I want to say it wasnt all that bad in comparison.