KeithO

Guys,

I am now just about mid-season in autocrossing my IROC. I know that it's easy to blame the car in these sorts of events, but I am hoping for a little help here.

The car has consistently understeered for every event. Accomplished drivers have told me (4 events ago now) that I am charging the corners too hard and must brake earlier. When applying this advice, my times would stay the same or get worse.

Yesterday, I tried various approaches to the same course and found little if any change in times by adjusting my braking points. The bottom line is that the car just won't @#%ing turn. My times are off by a significant amount when compared to top drivers in my class (F-stock). I figure I could get a second with the car, but nothing more.

Specifics on the car:
88 IROC: L98 with 700R4 and Al. driveshaft and J65 brake upgrade
Rear end: GH3/G80 2.77 with posi (not the best, but I can use all of the available acceleration with the combo)
Suspension: 6ZW,7ZW,8NL,9NL All suspension components are stock spec.

Details:
Newer Pep Boy UltraZ tires (comparable to GSC's of you believe Motor Trend).
Camber adjusted to maximum allowed by hardware.

Note that I want to stay in stock class.

After the last run yesterday, two respected drivers told me that I looked good and was using all of the car. This had the opposite effect of the intention. It pi$$ed me off since I looked OK, felt the car was at the limits at most points on course, and I took the correct line.

Any ideas here? Help! I'm trying to make a name for this beast against the 4th gens and am failing miserably.

Ragin'87

have you ever changed the shocks/struts? If they are original pieces, you may want to try and change them. I don't know what the rules for your class are, but you could get good stock "improvements" from O'Reilly, or AutoZone. When you're braking does your car stay in one gear, or does it automatically shift or disengage? I don't know if this is agreed by everyone, but all drivers that have given me advice, or tips before a run have said "load her up and pull her through".. don't screw with the chassis loading in a turn by way of throttle before the apex, picking a new line(unless there's something in yours), braking, or changing gears or otherwise removing direct connection of the driveline to the wheels. That advice is also highly stressed in all motorcycle racing literature I've ever read.

My first run in the 92 was 1:28.47 around a very tight 1.13 mile course with some very hard understeer. I knew I was braking too late, even into the turn. There was no "fluid" motion going on, I was abrubtly changing from hard on the brakes to hard on the gas.. this with an L03.. there's no motor there to back that up. I chose to pick a gear(usually 2nd) do ALL my braking, enter wide and hard towards the apex while rolling on the throttle to keep from loosing entry speed, and one I hit the apex roll on to accelerate to the next turn.. This changed my lap time to a 1:23.12. I think I could have done better than that, but I only did 2 runs, she wasn't pullin on all 8(you can really tell with an L03, it makes you wonder if there's really 8 even when it is running right.)

Hope that helps.

Anthony

------------------
previous ride: 87 Camaro LT
350, A4.Comp Cams 268H, Edelbrock Preformer intake, Hedman Headers and y-pipe, gutted cat, No AIR/smog pump. 14x3" Open element K&N, Q-jet w/ D hanger and DA rods, adjusted AV spring tension and quick can.

Current ride: 1992 Camaro RS, K&N, Flowmaster, 305, T5, Black, T-tops, 76k miles.

KeithO

Shocks and struts, huh? I already know the type of shocks that I want: the two-position Koni's. I've been trying to avoid spending money since this is my first season and I just bought the car. However, frustration and a lonely credit card may get the best of me yet. Tires still intrigue me. The rules say DOT tires. Kuhmo (sp?) or Hoosters might help here. Again, $$$$...

As far as technique goes, I hold the car in the "proper" gear to hit around 4500-5000 rpm at the end of a straight. I use engine and nomral braking to try to load up the front on my entry. When I get in too hot, I quickly jab the brakes with my left foot to throw the weight forward and I usually get the car to grab quite well. The bad news is that I have killed my speed. The good news is that the L98 is great out of the hole...

I've manage to achieve a degree of "slow hands" as observed by other drivers so I'm not jerking the car too often. I'm also not bad (but far from perfect) on acceleration to braking transitions. It just that sometimes it feels like the car should be grabbing better...

Hmmm... after reading this, maybe I'm not loading the front enough on entry... Hmmm

espirocz

iTrader: (2)

The key word you need to tell your self before running is to be SMOOTH Espicially with a heavy 3rd gen an a tight course. Tire pressure adjustment might help. If you are racing in SCCA (these are the rules I know), you can use a D.O.T. legal race tire such as BFG T/A R1s or Kumho Victoracer. Check TireRack.com to get some pricing. If out of park on $ get a tire that can serve dual purpose as you will see on my sig I started with Yokohama AVS Intermediates very good tire, not awesome in the rain but I was willing to sacrafice. Shocks in stock are pretty much open as long as it mounts in the stock location (get rulebook at next event if you are planning on doing mods). Best advice is to learn the car before going nuts with mods. How far is the front tire rolling over? This ,as well as tire noise while on course, will tell if you have right air pressure in tires. Example: I started last event with 30lbs in each tire and after run they climbed 3-4 lbs so with feel of car by the last run I had the R1s down to 28 in the front and 30 in the rear. Pressures will climb so constant checking is necessary.
Above all DONT GIVE UP. It may take a while. The best money I have spent is on seat belts, a good 5-point is, in my opinion necessary. When you ran did you find youself trying to hold on and drive. Well 5-point will do the holding for you. (you can mount 5 point with only perminant mod being the drivers outside seat belt bottom anchor needing razored to fit mount.

Eightyninef

I auto-x my 89 formula. I started 2-3 years ago, and am NOW only getting competitive.

you can do these things in order: get Kumho's, get shocks. bilstein's or koni's; learn to drive.

It took me 2 years to learn that I NEED to learn to drive. I finally stopped messin with the car, and am concentrating on driving. If you don't believe me, have a professional drive your car, and he will go 2 seconds faster

my car is otherwise stock. I'm within 1.8 seconds of a nationally ranked FS 4th gen

JackW

Driving skill is of utmost importance. You can do all the mods you want to your car, but if you can't drive to the potential of the car, then the mods won't help that much.

Try chalking your tires - take a piece of chalk or some shoe polish. Mark your tire in 3 places, making a small line from the edge of your treadface onto the sidewall. The ground will wear off what it contacts so you can see how much (or little) you are rolling onto the sidewall.

Remember, the best drivers know when to go fast and when to go slow. Don't overdrive the car - and as many instructors have told me, go slow to go fast.

I used to understeer all the time then I figured out that I should actually slow down to make some of the tighter turns - DUH!

Remember, skill first, then mods.

Good luck!

Jack ****
95 Eagle Talon TSi AWD

KeithO

Tire Pressures:
I have been progressively homing in on the tires pressures by using white shoe polish and checking after every run. I am at work and my records are incomplete, but here is what I know that I've done on pressures. The following are my pressures prior to the last run of each event (I adjust throughout the day). The pressures started high because of some bad advice (front: 44, rear: 40!) that I got in March:

4/22: Front: 42, Rear: 30
4/29: Front: 36, Rear: 26
5/6: Front: 30, Rear: 24 (my only trophy-winning finish)
5/20: Front: 32, Rear: 25
5/27: Front: 34, Rear: 27 (it was very cold)

I'm reasonably sure I got this correct with the tire/suspension combination. I find myself mainly adjusting for the outside air temperature anymore... Do any of these numbers greatly conflict with what you all have experience?

Harness:
My dad had a spare harness (he's BSP champ in a Vette) and gave it to me. Unfortunately, the seats are one-piece (no gap for the headrest) and I am unable to get the bolt that goes up-n-over the seat to reach an anchor point in back. I'm planning on rigging something up before the next event. I really don't think this is a major issue - the seats give me good support already and I keep my left foot planted hard on the fire wall when not in use on the brake... Even so, if it'll help, I plan to do it.

Tires/wheels:
I have concluded that I eventually will need better tires. I suppose I should start shopping for light and cheap rims (if such an animal exists) in the IROC stock size. From there, I will probably go for the Kumho's...

Shocks
According to the SCCA rules (that cover all three clubs that I run), you can have any shock that fits as long as it is only adjustable on the shock and only has a maximum of 2 positions. I think that this change is further in the future than the tires.

Weight:
On a related post here ("Race tires and rims") today, there was mention of how much of a difference lower car weight could make. I figured with all the torque that I had, this wasn't an issue. I run on a full tank of gas, leave the spare and jack in the car and never concerned myself about it. Am I making a mistake here? If I lower the weight, what would I notice most?

Ragin'87

in your comment on "jabbing the brakes" to load up the front more if you get in too hot, if you do this more often than you think, it could be a MAJOR contributing factor to your understeer. if you load your front end too much, as soon as you turn you reach the traction limit of your tires, and it pushes, or understeers.

the advice on getting a pro to drive your car is great. if they allow passengers for any runs, get the pro to drive one to feel the car, then hop in and get some pointers. I've learned a lot from riding with pros, in fact most of my racing experience came from the passenger seat and the constructive critizism of pros. The fastest guys in the club also happen to be the nicest and most eager to help, one has even raced F1.

ride with some pros, ask a lot of questions, if you can't afford a real driving school, it's the next best thing. I just wish there were more races around here.. and I could afford to run my car.

Anthony

EvilCartman

iTrader: (1)

I rode in a couple of different Vipers at ThunderHill Raceway in Willows Ca. in March. Just in the two sessions I got to ride through, I learned a lot. One thing I learned is a stock Viper can really handle good lol. They've got a driving school there for 175 bucks where you can take you're own car out with the instructor and have fun. Think I'll be doing that when I get the new engine and trany in

cman

My ? is will you be able to use the new tires to their full ability with the stock struts and shocks. Putting on stickier tires may accually make the problem worse with the other components being stock.

KeithO

To answer your "?", I have seen other stock cars run with R-compound tires and they do see an improvement over normal street tires. Whether the suspension components are stock or not, I can't imagine seeing a degradation of performance with "grippier" tires...

TexasLT1

KeithO, if your question hasnt already been answered, let me explain my situation. I have a '92 RS, all stock suspension, and a '95 LT1, so I have gobs of torque on tires that are almost bald (Yokohama A530?) What I think I have noticed is that I have already pushed the car to its limit with this suspension and these tires. But im still not sure about this whole under/oversteer thing. whats the difference? Ive noticed that when Im coming up to a sharp turn, I will tap the brakes and turn the wheel, but the car just doesnt seem to to turn. last time out I realized I could use all that power to my advantage and basically kick the front around with a brake/throttle combo since it just wanted to slide. like I said though, even with tire spin coming out of the turns, I think I've maxed my times with how the car is setup rightnow. also, the guy at the local shop told me that for adjustability the KYB's are better than Koni's because you can adjust the KYB's with a ****, something about taking off the shocks/struts to adjust the Konis.

------------------
-'92 RS with self-installed '95 LT1
-Heddman Headers
-TPIS throttle body airfoil
-MSD 6-AL Ignition
Kills
-'97 Mustang Cobra
-'98 V6 Camaro
-'89 5.0 ****stang
-'97 Sebring
-'96 ****stang Cobra

Losses
-'99 Mustang GT
-'96 Mustang Cobra
-'95 Z28 (good race)
-'96(?) Turbo Eclipse (d*mn good race, heavily modified)

KeithO

So, what you are basically saying is that you found that you need to do a 4-wheel drift through the turns since you were never able to overcome the understeer. Maybe I'll try that on Sunday. I had been told (and I took it as gospel) that 4-wheel drift slows you down. I'll give it a go - and I'll learn something. If nothing else, it'll be a blast...

I'm interested in the KYB versus Koni issue. My understanding of the stock rules is that you may have a shock that is adjustable for up to 2 positions only AND the adjustment must be done on the shock itself, not from inside the car. Where is the "****" that you describe?

Ragin'87

a four wheel drift.. or a drift of any kind slows your time.. if don't once it may not hurt the time that much.. and may be necessary if your're plowing hard and don't want to take out a hay bail with your front end, making the rear kick out and slide the whole car through the turn may be your only choice. But being smooth has been refered to many times. The ex-F1 driver I talked about before(either in this post, or another, I forget) demonstrated how significant this is at the last autox for my friend and I. I hauled royal *** to each corner entrance, and turned in at the last second, causing his car to plow(brand new Z06), he did everything the avg. first timer does, but he did it with great skill. At any rate he ran a 1:14.27, with me in the car(my friend video taped from the infield.) Another run followed up by acceleration, proper braking and turn in technique, hardly any sliding at all.. the only sounds were from the engine bay.. 1:13.02. While it FELT and SOUNDED like we were going faster the first time, b/c he was pushing the car so hard, when he smoothed everything out, he dropped over a second.. and that was with me in the damn car.. 124lbs of extra weight.

Anthony

------------------
previous ride: 87 Camaro LT
350, A4.Comp Cams 268H, Edelbrock Preformer intake, Hedman Headers and y-pipe, gutted cat, No AIR/smog pump. 14x3" Open element K&N, Q-jet w/ D hanger and DA rods, adjusted AV spring tension and quick can.

Current ride: 1992 Camaro RS, K&N, Flowmaster, 305, T5, Black, T-tops, 76k miles.

TexasLT1

KeithO, sorry about the KYB thing, I forgot about the rules for stock class, Im running in unlimited class so I can do what ever I want pretty much. The **** I spoke of is on the top side of the rear shocks, and on the very top of the struts in the engine comp. so all you have to do is reach in the back and pop the hood and there you go. I also forgot to mention that I only did the little plow move on one turn, my bad, didnt mean for it to sound like I did it every time. I was trying to keep from tipping a cone, but I ended up spinning anyway so I might as well have! oh well, better luck next time. But Ragin, your right, smooth and easy is the best way and I proved that to myself on my last run. got my fastest time of the day, no cones, no spins, and had a blast.

------------------
-'92 RS with self-installed '95 LT1
-Heddman Headers
-TPIS throttle body airfoil
-MSD 6-AL Ignition
Kills
-'97 Mustang Cobra
-'98 V6 Camaro
-'89 5.0 ****stang
-'97 Sebring
-'96 ****stang Cobra

Losses
-'99 Mustang GT
-'96 Mustang Cobra
-'95 Z28 (good race)
-'96(?) Turbo Eclipse (d*mn good race, heavily modified)

Ragin'87

a good clean run is always fun..
even in a stock.. and SLOW RS.... I did beat the time of some modded out mustangs tho.. but that was all driver.. I could have beaten my own time in their cars.. but.. a win is a win.. haha.

Anthony

------------------
previous ride: 87 Camaro LT
350, A4.Comp Cams 268H, Edelbrock Preformer intake, Hedman Headers and y-pipe, gutted cat, No AIR/smog pump. 14x3" Open element K&N, Q-jet w/ D hanger and DA rods, adjusted AV spring tension and quick can.

Current ride: 1992 Camaro RS, K&N, Flowmaster, 305, T5, Black, T-tops, 76k miles.

KeithO

Well, my next event is tomorrow. I have lined up at least 2 passengers for the event. I will take the first run alone (to learn the course) then take a progression of passengers after that.

After that, I'm gonna have my dad drive my car with me as a passneger. Since he's won class champion a number of times in his 'Vette, he should spank my times and I'll learn something. He's avoided driving my car because he's afraid that he will break something. I convinced him to drive it tomorrow. I anticipate that he's going to be surprised by the understeer. If not, I guess I suck...

It's still fun.

Ragin'87

it's always fun man.. unless you break something.. but it's still fun. try and get a ride with one of the REALLY fast guys.. in a different kind of car.. puts a lot of things into perspective.. like say and M3.. the drive has got to be smooth and precise, or the engine falls out of the power band, and the time sucks *****. have fun man.

Anthony

KeithO

Well, I got half of my wish today. I was a passenger in two of the other F-stock cars (both Mustangs with good drivers) and had both of them as passengers, as well as my dad as a passenger. Unfortunately, we didn't have fun runs because it was so hot and we started tearing up the pavement...

I learned to brake a little earlier and start feeding the throttle gently and earlier in turns. That's it.

Still got spanked... I really want someone else to drive my car...

PS I also brought the pressures back up in the tires. I think this helped a little.

KeithO

Well, I got under my car on Saturday and found that I had broken the rear sway bar mount complete off. This would explain the understeer and my reduced performance.

I knew something was wrong. I am embarrassed that it took this long for me to find this.

ATOMonkey

I assume that you are using the same size tires and wheels front and back. Steady state cornering is a function of overall stiffness and weight ratio. Since our cars are front heavy, you need more stiffness in the front than the rear for the car to handle neutral. Stiffness is a number developed by the entire suspension including tires, and spring rubber. A generic equation to remember is

(Front Weight/Front stiffness)/(Rear Weight/Rear Stiffness)= Loose < 1 < Tight

This is a very boiled down equation taken from a vehicle dynamics book. Remember that this is STEADY STATE, if you are accelerating or braking, all of this changes. That is why it is so important to drive smoothly so that the car is more consistant and can be tuned more easily. Dynamic cornering is much more complicated. For instance if you set up a car to corner neutral it will push under braking and be loose under power. The magnitude of how much is pushes or oversteers is directly dependent on how hard it is being driven. There should be plenty of literature on this in your public library if you are really interested in making your car handle better.

------------------
'89 Red Formula 350- 350 .060 over forged pistons 232* @ .020 cam Performer RPM Holley 750 DP Vortec 1.94 1.50 Accel Coil and dist. Hedman shorty headers Dual Exhaust w/ cutouts 1LE WS6 suspension, wheels, and brakes, 9 Bolt 3.27 Posi Edelbrock LCA's & Track bar subframe connectors 700R4 A&A snorkel scoop Eclipse Head Unit Delco Bose Speakers 2 12" Pioneer subs w/ 400 watt/chanel amp


[This message has been edited by ATOMonkey (edited July 30, 2001).]

merf23

If you still cant get rid of the understeer and cant afford new shocks/tires then you must try another approach. I suggest using a smaller front swaybar (assuming you already have the largest sizes front and rear...a larger rear bar would be my first choice). This will let the front roll a little more and loosen up the rear to make the car more driveable.
I have an A-mod car and often find myself adjusting the swaybars to loosen or tighten the car to suit the course configuration.

------------------
1984 Z28 (L69) monochrome tangerine orange with IROC decals and hood
1987 IROC wheels with Goodyear GSC's
305 from 87 IROC with 1994 LT1 cam (203/208 .450/.460")
performer intake
Qjet from 73 Olds
dynomax cat-back, gutted cat
no emissions controls --&gt; passed emissions testing
non WC T-5 with 0.73 5th
3.27 nine-bolt

Crack Monkey

Possibly a smaller front swaybar would help, but I doubt your front springs are stiff enough to make this worthwhile (car will wallow and roll too much). Try to find out if other F-bodies have larger rear bars that are legal - probably not since your in an IROC, but it's worth checking out.

You definetely will NEED good tires to run with the faster car in any class. Kumhos are a good tire to start with because they last long and do not flatspot easily. But, it is pretty much accepted that Hoosiers are faster at autocross, with a much greater cost, reduction in life, and easy flatspotting.

Although light alloy wheels are nice to have, I've found used factory alloys to be the best mix of cost, durability, and performance. They usually weigh a few pounds more than light aftermarket alloys, but cost half as much.

Shocks will eventually become a must-have as well. Koni is the most common and most top drivers have them custom valved and dyno tested for consistency.

You may want to consider replacing some of the suspension bushings. In stock, they must remain OEM, but on older cars with rotten/cracked bushings, fresh ones can make a big differnce.

I just started driving a 1989 Caprice 9C1 in street mod (used to drive a Civic in STS and an RX-7 in CSP). So, I too am dealing with tons of understeer. Luckily, I am not restricted in what I can do.

KeithO

I just finished replacing the sway bar mounts on the car. I put polyurethane replacements in it.

The car feels different! I just took it for a joy ride.

I can't wait for the next event.

After the event, I will review this entire post and see where things are.

Thanks to all!

nicmike85

I kept braking my rear sway bar end links so I installed 3/8 bolts. No more problems. Do you have disk brakes on the rear?

KeithO

Yes, I have rear disks. I will keep this in mind if I break this off again.

When you say you used 3/8 bolts, I assume that you mean that you used a 3/8 bolt to run from the bottom of the bushing up through the top? Did this fit OK with the existing bushing components or did you have to get all new?

TexasLT1

just curious, but how do you dyno test a shock?

nicmike85

Yes the poly end link kit had big enough holes. I might have drilled the metal plates out just a bit but I don't remember.

Texas LT1--- If you purcase performance shocks then ask them for a dyno sheet. Most performance shock companies dyno all thier shocks. Dynomometering shocks won't help a street car. The variables are to inconsistant so a perfect shock could not be found. An adjustable shock would be a wise choice allowing for a little bit of tuning without getting caught up in the perfect suspention game. Even on an all out race car shocks have to be changed for track conditions and spring changes.

Ragin'87

TexLT1,
there's little machine that attaches to the end of the shocks rod.. and it puts the shock through it's full range of motion, at various vibration rates.. reads out much more complicated than an engine dyno, getting a shock dialed in correctly with a dyno is a science in it's own right.. If want more info, ask someone on a motorcycle roadracing board.. that's where I see shock dyno's most often.

Anthony


------------------
previous ride: 87 Camaro LT
350, A4.Comp Cams 268H, Edelbrock Preformer intake, Hedman Headers and y-pipe, gutted cat, No AIR/smog pump. 14x3" Open element K&N, Q-jet w/ D hanger and DA rods, adjusted AV spring tension and quick can.

Current ride: 1992 Camaro RS, K&N, Flowmaster, 305, T5, Black, T-tops, 76k miles.

01 FS Z28

Keith,

I'm really sorry that you are having so much trouble. However, I do notice that you've taken none of the advice I gave you. Granted, it was free, but it is from someone who knows how to autocross, and moreover knows how to autocross F-bodies.

It's simple. There are two factors related to autox. Car and driver.

Let's start with the car. Nothing is easier to set-up to be Nationally competitive (let alone locally) than a 3rd gen. NOTHING. So, what do you need (I'll try this one more time):

Shock/Struts. Something good if you are serious. Don't screw around with KYB or Monroe. You either use Bilstein or Koni. And for the record. There is NO rule about 2 position adjustable shocks. You can have 400 position adjustables if you could build them. The rule limits you to 2-WAY adjustable shocks. i.e. a single compression and a single rebound adjustment ONLY. There are shocks out there that are 3 and 4 way adjustable. (high and low speed bump, + rebound for the 3 ways, high, low, for bump and rebound both in the case of 4-ways.)........ I can hook you up with either. I'll even set you up with a set of the Bilstein's I valved for my own car. Or you can run Koni's. BTW, shocks don't effect steady state handling............. that's alignment and tires. If the car is not in some sort of transition, the shocks are along for the ride. Will the car be easier to drive with them???? Absolutely, but not because they eliminate push.

Tires. The only thing holding the car up, the only thing that makes the car do what you want. Pep-Boys ain't going to give you good tires. Simple economics. You get what you pay for. And believe it when I tell you that 4 245's of one size will drastically change the balance and driveability of a car when replaced with 4 245's of another size..... Ever try playing basketball in loafers?????? Even Michael Jordan would look mortal without the grip from the shoes. You're doing the same thing with your car.......

Those two things, and an alignment, and the suspension is as good as it gets. Further, it's as good as it needs to be.

The last thing you do it dump that 2.77 rear. It sucks. You get caught between 1st and 2nd A LOT. You don't want to rev an L98, and holding 1st does exactly that. But, if you shift to 2nd, because your gearing is sooooooo high, it downshifts on it's own. That kills you, because you have to wait for it to shift before you really go anywhere. Find a 3.27 rear, and get it in the car.

At that point, the car is done (assuming the car has a good posi.). Now, ALL that's left is the driver. And that ain't easy.

You can either trust me on this, or not. You will not find a magic answer to this question. You have to prep. the car and drive it. Once it's prepared, then you can try and go forward. Obviously you are frustrated.

Next local event ask the folks there if I'm someone you should listen too........ Let's see, ask Ted Wiedner, or Kent Rafferty, or John Holzer, or Andy Helgeson, or a number of others that have been around.... I've won just about 50% of the National events I drive. I've won in 3rd gens in both FS and ESP. I've won in 4th gens in FS and ESP. I've won in RX7's in Super Stock. I teach Evolution Autocross Schools (25 instructors NATIONWIDE). And I've personally taught some folks locally that are the "hot-shoes".

I get paid *well* to teach. I wouldn't if I didn't know what I was doing. I have a successful business setting up autocross cars. I wouldn't if I I didn't know what I was doing...............

I can help you, but you have to let me do it. The car is simple, you simply trust me, and it will be capable of winning ANY event in FS. The driving is more up to you, but I can help that too.

You have to be willing to accept the help. Like it or not, Pittsburgh ain't place to find the help you need.



------------------
Sam Strano Jr.
Strano Performance Parts
800-729-1831
www.stranoparts.com

CPCamaro

I'll vouch for Sammy's record... (even if he does sound ****y..) <grin>

He has kept a 3rd-gen car competitive for longer than most F-body drivers. Many abandoned them in favor of the 4th-gen cars, which to me, have worse front suspensions. (at least for autocrossing).

CPCamaro

CPCamaro

Stupid sensors....

Replace '****y' with 'arrogant'.

CPCamaro

KeithO

Sam,

In a sense, you are correct, I have not "taken" any of your advice. However, as I stated in March, my only goal is to improve my driving this year. There are three reasons for this:
1) Cost
2) I need to learn to drive better
3) Cost

I have approached this season with only one goal in mind - learn to use all of the car, as is. Purchasing an autocross car in a one-income household was a big step this past year. In addition, some things have happened that have cause some financial headaches that I need to get out of the way. To keep my word to my family and in the spirit of fairness, I am not constantly throwing money at this car just yet. Why? Two reasons:
1) I made a promise
2) Many good drivers have advised me to learn to drive, then make mods one at a time so that I can appreciate them and learn to best take advantage of them.

So, if memory serves, you had three pieces of advice for me in March/April:
1) Dump the 2.77 rear for a 3.27
2) Change the shocks and struts
3) Get better tires

Starting in the fall, I plan on starting on these items in reverse order (or maybe shocks first). The rear end will be last...

As far as working with experienced drivers go, I have ridden with:
Kent R.
Rudy O.
John H.
Walt P.

and have taken the following as passengers:
Karen R.
John H.
Walt P.
Rudy O.
Dave S.
Terry N. (current FS king)

In addition, I had Jerry S. co-drive my car for an SCR event. After the event, Jerry said that I need shocks. He beat me by about 1 second on a 50-ish second course.

Sam - understand - I am under continuing pressure from Rudy to contact you for shock and alignment work. There is nothing more that I'd like to do that this. Unfortunately, reality has intervened.

Certainly, running without a rear sway bar has degraded my performance this year, but hey, we'll see how I do Sunday at NOVR... My guess is that I'll look a little better and not have so much understeer...

...we will be getting together. All in good time.

01 FS Z28

I am the first person to tell folks to improve their driving.

In your case, you already know that much (which is way beyond what others know). You are severely hurting your learning curve by not trying to do *something* to improve the car. Bad habits are hard to break, and you will (probably already have) develop(ed) them in trying to wrestle a car that isn't at least close to what it has to be.

What frustrated me were somethings I read earlier.

You want to wait to do anything, but even the things you are *thinking* of doing are sometimes illegal, or wrong.

You can't use urethane in the rear sway bar. The only urethane you can use in the car is the front bar. So, that's illegal.

The thing about the shock adjustments was just plain incorrect.

****y. Okay. Not really me, as most anyone who knows me can attest. I was just frustrated. You are still looking for answers that you were already given........

Let's face it, an alignment is free. All you need is a tape measure and tools if you don't want to go the the rack. Shocks will help a LOT. Is it smart to buy cheap ones if you are going to "upgrade" later? Not really, but Keith doesn't appear to be in any hurry. At least slap something on there that isn't totally junk. $150 would cover KYB's. Not my optimal choice, but far better than what's probably on the car......

I can appreciate wanting to drive. We all do. But what you are trying is akin to showing up in SS and trying to race Z06's with an '84 Cross-Fire injected Corvette. you arent' going to catch anyone by saddling yourself with inferior equipment.

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Sam Strano Jr.
Strano Performance Parts
800-729-1831
www.stranoparts.com

KeithO

Sam, this thread was not about YOU or the information that you gave me. I guess this blows your mind.

If you think about it, what happened to ME was:
1) I started off not bad at the beginning of the season (see post with tire pressures on 5/29)
2) Sometime in late May, I broke the rear sway bar link (see original post complaining about understeer) and my performance got worse all of a sudden
3) I wasn't smart enough to realize the link was broken or check anything on the car so I assumed that it was my driving (not smart, but what happened)
4) Finally, on July 29th, I noticed that I had broken the rear sway bar link and posted on July 30th.

Part of the reason that I took so long to find the problem is that I was out of town for 5 of the 9 weeks in this timeframe. I find it easier to find problems with a car when I am in the same city that the car is in.

The car is now back to where it was in late May. No better. No worse. By late May, I was getting competitive for trophy finishes, but not yet for wins. For being in my first season, "saddling [my]self with inferior equipment", I'd say that's pretty good progress. Imagine what I will be able to do when I "fix" the car.

I have collected information from every available source regarding improving the car for next year. Information has been all over the map, but there is an air of consistency in regards to driver, tires, and shocks.

So we are clear - this thread was not about you nor me ignoring you. It is about me deciding a plan and sticking to it to accommodate my situation. This is my hobby not my career. Obviously, you disagree with my plan but I still think it is the right thing to do for me. Sorry if that frustrates you.

Ragin'87

Keith,
You have gotten a lot of good advice in this post, from various people. I'm on your side with the money issues. Tho given any opportunity I would fix the car first, then work on the driving. The 78 vette I have mentioned several times before was the ONLY car my friend ever drove around the track, and it was set up from day one. Bilsteins, Vette Brakes & Suspension springs, bushings, and front end, Yokohama race slicks, roll cage, the whole nine yards. I think because he didn't have to overcome any shortcomings of the car, he was able to become a much better driver. Not attacking your strategy in anyway.. I think there's a post floating around here somewhere about my first autox run.. and come to find out a few days later, I wasn't even runnin on all 8. When I get my clutch done, I will continue to run my car in it's stock form(tho I ran across a sweet deal on a set of Eibach springs and Herb Adams bars..), but I race my car purely for enjoyment... when I get my motorcycle, THAT will be serious.

keep racing, take the advice in stride, and have fun man.

Anthony

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previous ride: 87 Camaro LT
350, A4.Comp Cams 268H, Edelbrock Preformer intake, Hedman Headers and y-pipe, gutted cat, No AIR/smog pump. 14x3" Open element K&N, Q-jet w/ D hanger and DA rods, adjusted AV spring tension and quick can.

Current ride: 1992 Camaro RS, K&N, Flowmaster, 305, T5, Black, T-tops, 76k miles.

KeithO

To all -

There is no understeer problem with my IROC. In my first event in months with a connected rear sway bar, I even managed to beat the aforementioned John H. on Sunday. Felt good to be competitive. After reviewing the above, and evaluating the car in it's correct state, I plan to:

1) Get new shocks
2) Get better tires
3) Change the rear end gear to 3.27, eventually.

My goal is a trophy finish at the local "big event" in October. In preparation for this event, I plan to get shocks now and have had at least one event with them on the car prior to this "big event".

I have "found" funds (actually an early Christmas present) to acquire shocks. So I have eliminated my stumbling block on cost.

Sam, if you aren't completely annoyed with me, I would be interested in discussing the options described above, namely, the Bilsteins and Konis. Since this car is also my "winter beater", I have to believe that there may be a consideration regarding which shock I settle upon since it will get some street use. If you would like to pursue this, click on the e-mail link above this post and contact me.

Thanks to all.

These are impressive cars.

steve8586iroc

KeithO, you might want to send Sam an e-mail as he might not see your post for a while. I am currently running my 86iroc in FS and have had good success with my Hoosier roadrace tires. There not as sticky as auto-x tires but you can't compare them to street tires. I was able to pick up a set of used ones that only had a couple of laps at road Atlanta and only paid $60 apeice for them. I got them from a Hoosier tire dealer called Hoosier Road and Drag in Knoxville Tn. There might be a simular tire dealer in your area.

Steve

KeithO

steve8586iroc - thanks for the advice. I just e-mailed him.

I spent last evening checking out rims and tires for future planning. I guess I first need to buy a set of cheap, light rims to mount my future tires on. My dad called Tire Rack a few months back and ordered 11" rims (I think) and got a mis-matched set for a song. They ain't pretty but they were cheap because they were just lying around and Tire Rack wanted to get rid of them. I figure I have all winter to drum up a deal on tires/rims.

After checking into the tires, I have concluded that I should be check Hoosier (autox and road race) and Kuhmo V700's. It seems to me that the road race tires may be bit less grippy, but also may not be a fragile as the autox tires. Alot of guys get punctures from debris on the real soft ones.. I have time on this one.

Let's see where the shock thing takes me.

steve8586iroc

KeithO, if your running in F stock then you will have to stay with the stock wheel size. When I got my tires I found an extra set of front rims so I have a total of four and mounted the tires on them. This way I can rotate my tires without having to demount them. The 16" IROC wheels can be a lot of trouble when it comes to rotating tires with the different offsets on them.

KeithO

Steve -

Sounds like I am planning on doing the same thing that you are doing to avoid remounts.

The obvious thing to do would be to get another set of IROC rims (ebay?) and mount the competition tires on them. Then it's simply a matter of changing tires for and after events. The advantage I have with the used rims is that I don't care what they look like - I could get some beat up ones pretty cheap.

An alternative would be to try to find some lighter rims new rims that would be within the rules, 0.25" offet max, I believe.

Unfortunately, cost will be the determining factor here.

Another interesting alternative for me would be to go with 15" wheels (since they were available on an 88 IROC) and lower my gear ratio to try to "fix" the tall gearing (2.77) in the car... This won't fix all of my problems, but it could reduce the times (as Sam points out above) where I am "caught" between 1st and 2nd. I'll have to play with Excel to decide if this approach is worth pursuing.

Like I said, I have a little time here and I will analyze the best approach by evaluating the tradeoffs.

Eightyninef

I busted a rear end link at an auto-x school last year. Neither I nor the instructors noticed the difference in the car. I heard it snap, and it banged around the rest of the day, but the car really didn't change.

and these were real professional instructors from evolution auto-x school. surly these guys (2 of them) would have noticed a drastic change. I found out when I got home what the banging sound was. The bolt was still dangling in the bracket. I was surprised I didn't notice the difference in the car. If anything the rear would have hooked up better

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89 Formula
96 Impala SS

steve8586iroc

Keith, if you use four front rims the you can rotate the tires on the car and get the most wear out of them. With just an extra set of wheels( two fronts and two backs)you will have to dismount and remount the tires to get the best wear, and you gain a wider track from the less offset of the front wheels too. Major unnessesary pain if you ask me.

Steve

KeithO

Well folks, after a week, I can safely conclude that old Sammie's ego is bigger than his business. I can only assume that the above series of threads (where he wants to tell us all how smart he is and how dumb I am) stands. I offered to buy some of his services (here and via e-mail) and he went silent on me. I can have to believe that this is because he has so much business that he can't handle it all. Given the state of the economy, I can only stand in awe.

I guess that you'll have to genuflect to do business with old Sammie. Not my style. Sorry, I kiss no one's butt to do business with them.

That's cool. Best I can tell, he hasn't cornered the market on on third gen knowledge. To the rest of you, thanks for all of the input folks, I'll keep you posted. Your input simply echoed the "expert".

Good luck Sammie.

To follow your quote:
"****y. Okay. Not really me, as most anyone who knows me can attest."

Okay. If you say so. I can only say that your reputation precedes you in this area where even though "Pittsburgh ain't place to find the help [I} need", I actually meet a national champion or so here... Being good will only take you so far with certain people - myself included.

I haven't seen you drive yet...

[This message has been edited by KeithO (edited August 25, 2001).]

KeithO

I put the new Koni Sports in yesterday and my event was cancelled today. Oh well. If things go according to plan, I'm off to England tomorrow for over a week.

I won't have another event to try them out until Oct 7th.

The car feels DIFFERENT!

steve8586iroc

Are you going by way of cruise ship? j/k Have a good trip and keep us enformed on how the konis work out.

KeithO

Well, my wife refused to get on the plane Monday evening, so I guess I'll be running this weekend. We have a two-day event schedule. Ought to be interesting.

steve8586iroc

Keith, how about starting a new post after you run this weekend, it's starting to take awhile to down load this one.

KeithO

Done

I'll start a thread titled something like "Driving Impressions of Koni Sport Shocks in Third Gens for Autocrossing"

Unfortunately, our two-day event may be cancelled this weekend. We use a county airport lot and it appears that a bunch of Air Force reservists have parked their cars where we run. I don't think anyone in our club would be comfortable having these cars moved while these guys are out doing their duty...

DM91RS

Hey guys. 1st time on this forum. I've just read this thread and I do not remember seeing anyone mention the front tie bar known as the wonderbar. The autocross guys in the Atlanta area several years back told me that it improves understeer alot. I don't know if it does or not I only went to the autox school and then decided to only try road courses. You also mentioned wheels and the American Sedan racers that I talked with recommended the 16x8 GTA style as being the lightest and using all fronts. I bought 4 new ones from Classic Industries for around $130 ea. Hope this helps!

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91 RS 5.0 TBI....Edel. TES headers .. 3" exhaust ..... 5spd 3.08