project89

iTrader: (1)

it looks like im getting a deal anda half on a set of used afrs and vic jr efi
im kind of worried about putting this stuff on my shortblock

originally i never planed on aftermarket heads so i went kind of cheap on my motor

its an 0010 4 bolt block 30 over
factory forged crank
stock rods arp bolts
cheap speedpro forged pistons
summit 224/224 hyd flat
ported 882 heads
tpi intake

my first concern was the stock rods i really dont want to snap a rod and have a piston smack the afrs. but how strong is a factory forged crank vs an aftermarket crank

this is a twin turbo motor twin 57mm turbos and 100 shot of nitrous

xpndbl3

iTrader: (5)

I'd worry about rods first

project89

iTrader: (1)

ill be changing the rods for sure, just wondering if the crank should go as well

xpndbl3

iTrader: (5)

well how much do you really want to spend on a "cheap" setup?

project89

iTrader: (1)

lol im trying to keep this project as cheap as possible

it originally started as a stocker motor with a whole lot of boost and nitrous
then once i relized my motor had a forged crank in it i upgraded the pistons and put good rod bolts in it

it has since really snowballed

i guess i leave the crank alone i wont be turning this motor more then 6k rpms so im assuing it will be fine

1gary

Pay to play??.It hasn't change much over the yrs.

project89

iTrader: (1)

yeah yeah i know ur attitude twards going fast, get out the credit card and start writing checks

luckily for me anything i spend on the car now becomes a tax write off but im still trying to keep this a budget build

AlkyIROC

The OEM crank is probably made from a different metal grade and is usually nowhere near as good as an aftermarket crank. Tolerances are also a lot different but that doesn't mean the aftermarket crank is better. There's a lot of offshore forged cranks that need a lot of work before being installed in the engine.

The first thing you should do is have the crank magnafluxed to see if it's even worth using. An unseen crack can become a catastrophic failure.

Ditch those 882 heads. Even if you got them for free, they're not a good head to use to make power. If you can't afford some better aftermarket heads, there are much better factory heads to use.

As with any build using none factory parts, get it all balanced. Balancing will greatly improve the life of the engine and your bearings will thank you.

With the huge assortment of aftermarket components available, the cost of using aftermarket parts is much cheaper than it was decades ago. Spend the money now on better components and leave the OEM stuff for factory rebuilds.

DIGGLER

iTrader: (1)

forged factory crank will probably be ok up to the point where the block lets go. 900+hp. it is a different material than a 4340 forged crank but i can't remember the number on it. not as strong, but then again the older factory forged cranks were probably more consistent than the chinese stuff. with 882 heads and a tpi intake i would doubt you could break one of these cranks or the block.

project89

iTrader: (1)

the crank checked out just fine had that done when i tore th emotor down to change the pistons.

and honestly i dont need a better cyl head not to run in the 9's on boost and nitrous anyways

but im practically stealling the afr heads/intake thats why im going to grab them.

the 882's will be good enough to run deep into the 9's, with he afrs combo will mak eenough power to go into the 8's if i get the rest of the car setup right but i doubt ill go that far.
this is practically my daily driver so the biggest reason to goto the afrs for me is really that they will make more power off boost on the street and require alot less boost presure to go just as fast

the 882's are going to need about 18-22ish psi from the twin 57mm turbos + the hundred shot of nitrous to go mid 9's

project89

iTrader: (1)

u would be surprised guys over on tff. com have made over 1,000 hp with 882's and turbos on methanol, im not shooting for that much but its still impressive none the less what those guys make with the junk heads

DIGGLER

iTrader: (1)

running deep nines in a daily driver will be pretty difficult. probably need another 100+hp than you think you'll need. hope you make it though, i'll be watching your progress.

project89

iTrader: (1)

i agree on the difficult part , marty did it in his trans am but he wasnt a daily driver, but it was still a street car. ive pretty much duplicated his build minus the hiflow tpi intake base.

my biggest downfall is going to be i refuse to ditch the overdrive the speedlimit on the highway is 80mph, and i make a 120 mile round trip on it every few days for work. so there is a 4l80 in my future

if i recall correctly his best pass with the small valve truck heads was a 9.57 with a 75 shot and 21-23psi, the 882's should flow alot better then the small valve truck heads he used so im really hoping 9's wont be to hard to get

later he eventually switch to a double hump set of heads and ran 9.17 irc

its starting to warm up here now so ill be getting back to working on the car again and hopefully hitting the track soon for some shakedown passes

so far ive only had the car out on the street but theres not a whole lot i can do on the street with it without getting in trouble

1gary

I would NEVER suggest anyone go racing on a credit card.That is a really bad idea.

project89

iTrader: (1)

sorry gary i actually mixed u up with somone else.
we actually have a few ppl on here that firmly belive if u dont buy the best of everything or if u make ur own parts that ur car shouldnt leave ur driveway let alone go racing with it

TB2

iTrader: (1)

What are you predicting your final HP will be. I run a stock GM steel forged unit that has been nitrided, knife wedged, lightened down to 43lbs and balanced. Working great for me so far. I've heard these cranks will pretty easily hold 900+hp.

1gary

Just to clear up what I am saying,if the project grows,the budget should grow with it.It is the only responsible way to protect the investment.There are no deals.Just parts built to handle what is expected of them and others which are not.If you find coming up short on cash for a build,you wait until your in a better position to get what you need.That it is irresponsible to put say $5,000 top end on top of a $500 bottom end.Kind of backwards doing that.That is bad business.Also,to race on a credit card almost always ends up being a sale of the project starting saying" my lost is your gain".

A part of what you are saying I agree with where you don't need the best parts out there.But that is reserved mostly for the slower classes and be very sure once you cross over a line on how fast you want to go,it certainly is a game changer in terms of what is needed.I don't really give a rats bass how many people say they are doing what with what and short invested.It's their wallet they are riding on which sooner than later will be doing a do-over.Worst case is the first time it was on a credit card and now they are really in a hole.Here I am trying to advise you and my interest is in what and how you do your project.

Am I advising you to run a 9 second car on a stock crank??. No, I am not.I certainly am not advising you to run a power adder on a stock crank either.We have squeaked by on a N/A bottom end 10.90 car before.But there again it was on our wallet and not yours.All and all,if you build more than you need,it is less likely you will have to look back..............But that is your choice.

DIGGLER

iTrader: (1)

how much did marty's car weigh when it went low 9's?

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

I thought Marty's car only got up to 88 MPH...

This is really the same old story - build the engine to take the power you're going to make, or only make the power your engine build can take.

project89

iTrader: (1)

i did forget to ask him that, but i do know his track is at 2400 ft elevation,going to be a lil harder for me as the track in salt lake city is around 4500 ft i dont know what the elvation is at las vegas speedway but im sure its not as bad either track is pretty much the same distance from me so ill prolly be going to vegas to run

ill find out what his car wieghs in at to though

AlkyIROC

I was making over 500 NA HP with a 383 and a stock 400 cast crank. The engine failed either because of a factory rod bolt broke or a cast piston exploded so even a cast crank can take more abuse than many realize. Using a power adder however, you should be using a steel crank. If you manage to break a factory one then you'll ask yourself why you didn't buy an aftermarket one. If you buy an aftermarket one, you'll always wonder if a factory crank would have been just as good. All cranks can fail one way or another. You can throw a rod and damage a crank beyond repair.

I just finished cleaning out my garage a couple of weeks ago. I threw out 4 steel cranks that were not worth repairing. Cheaper to just buy a new one. Also threw out 4 engine blocks including my Dart big M because it had a crack in the main webbing. New block should be arriving any day now.

project89

iTrader: (1)

for now im going to run with what i have and put the afrs on the shelf. marty ran a fully cast engine for 2 years

ill get out and run the car and see if i really want to go any faster then what it will with the 882's turbo and nitrous. if i decide not to try to go faster ill eave the factory forged crank and upgrade the rods and drop the afrs on

if i decide to go faster ill wait and buy a new rotating assembly before i really lean on the thing im sure ill be happy with a 9.80's street car that i can street drive
the track record up here was set by a member of another forum that im a member of at a high 8 second pass in a supra which id love to take the record from him but to do it reliably in a street car is just going to cost me way to much i think

xpndbl3

iTrader: (5)

Only thing I can tell you is cast parts in my experience don't like cylinder pressure at lower rpm's. If we didn't hit them hard until higher up in the rpm range they seemed to live longer.

1gary

I think I told you guys this once before,but not sure,so here goes.Some close to us blew up his good motor early in the season and has to throw together a cast crank deal to finish the season on his 9.90 car.He held his breath the whole season everytime he let go the the tranny button.Now I do understand many of you guys are foot brake racing with power adders,but because of the power adders I would think the shock level to the cranks are very close to a trans brake.At the end of the season he torn down the engine and threw out everything because it was trash.

Here the O/P is asking about a stock forging.The materials are that big of a deal in the "good" aftermarket cranks.Not the cheap Eagle junk.In my 383 street only N/A build I bought a $700 Howards crank with lightening holes solely because I know I have a very good pc that I will never have to look back at.A very safe investment that if I chose in the future I can pretty much build what ever top end on and it will happily hold up.

My point is more often than not,the better money is spend will just alittle more.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

And why was it trash? Because it was a cast crank? Because it tossed a rod? Because it shattered?

Or because he just didnt trust it?

1gary

It was twisted(weird huh but hadn't broken yet) and had some stress cracks started.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

Wow twisted?! Interesting.

project89

iTrader: (1)

3663#'s with him in the car

1gary

One of the common things I learned in drag racing over the yrs,relatively speaking,is heavier cars damage more parts.It just comes with the territory when wanting to go faster.And these cars are heavy.So inherently the need for better quality cranks comes along with the deal when you want to go faster.And again,yo all can tell me about whoever doing whatever with what.But that doesn't change the material strength and the coin flip where I in the long run am trying to save your wallet.

DIGGLER

iTrader: (1)

he was making some serious steam. thats pretty dang amazing!
mine made 600ish rwhp and went 9.44 with a 1.36 60' at 3050lbs on the bottle.

project89

iTrader: (1)

i belive his best pass witht he small valve truck heads was with 100 shot of nitrous and 22-23psi of boost. i just cant belive that the junkyard motor never blew up and took all the abuse he put it threw
i belive he dynoed dam near 800rwhp at one time with that setup though i dont know if it was with the small valve heads or the double humps, more then likley it was with the double humps
i have slightly larger turbos and a better flowing cyl head, im not sur ehow much not having an aftermarket throttlebody and aftermarket lower tpi intake is going to hurt me but i should be able to come close to his times if i can get the car setup right.

or atleast im hoping i can

DIGGLER

iTrader: (1)

i would say he was deffinately laying down somewhere in the 800rwhp area. very cool doing that with a cast bottom end, junk heads, and a tpi.

1gary

I worked at the Chevy Engine Plant in Tonn,NY yrs ago.At first I ran tested 48 engines a day in a 8 hr shift and many wks we worked overtime for 5 yrs.Within that 5 yrs I worked in the dyno rm run testing engines for durability.I have lost count how many engines I have actual hands on.Also have 50 yrs in drag racing where we bought and sold SBC/BBC parts.

So your going to post about a guy you guys know that built a upside down invested engine that is a hand grenade with the pin pulled that is illogical.It is just like the comic book articles in magazines like Hot Rod making claims that always have a real street "back story". If is doesn't make sense and sounds too good to be true.........then it is.

Getting back to the question of the thread,many of the guys who run cars in the region of what are your goals have posted what is a appropriate crank for you and I have suggested a stock forging/cast crank isn't the way to do this.

I have done my best to help you out and now the rest is up to you.

project89

iTrader: (1)

he didnt build that engine his real race engine broke, and he dropped in the junkyard engine to finish racing.
then he tried to blow it up and it never did everything else broke around the engine, a couple turbos the th400 and some other parts

his car did happen to make it into car craft while he ws running the junkyard engine

i never did say hey i want to build a junkyard engine just like his, alls i said was i was basing my build off his car and looking to go as fast

Shagwell

So I guess I should note that our old blown combo that ran low 5's and the 496 that ran 5.3x's were both GM 2-bolt main blocks, the blown combo was even a GM steel 427 crank.........

Yeah, for sure not the best parts out there but they got the job done just fine w/o issue.



As for the topic, I'd agree with what Diggler originally noted; the GM steel crank is good for about the same level as a stock block should reasonably be pushed to - somewhere around 900hp. I would definitely upgrade the rods though, too cheap of insurance not to.

88IROC350TPI

There is this ongoing thing I've noticed within my local racing community... It seems that the guys who fork out the dough for "bullet proof" bottom ends always blow them up and the guys that use the cheap/stock stuff inside run for years... I've been running a Scat 9000 cast steel crank for years and it's the last thing I worry about going down the track... I've beat it to death and couldn't ask any more from it. Got every penny + some out of it at this point... Some may strongly disagree with me but I feel spending huge amounts of money on pistons/rods/cranks just to throw them into a stock GM block is kind of pointless...

Most recent example... Buddy of mine has a 3500lb Malibu with a turbo and nitrous. The shortblock was completely stock and this thing was running in the 9's. He put at least a hundred 1/4 mile passes on it and 5,000+ street miles in a single year before the oil pressure started reading low. Turns out the oil pump malfunctioned and starved some bearings. Anyway, for a $150 shortblock what more could you ask?

1gary

Done my best to help.No guessing here.I'm done with this now I guess.Never owning good parts mean ya don't know what you missing I guess.Oh well..............don't care.

DIGGLER

iTrader: (1)

from an engineering standpoint-
the parts in a machine/equipment/engine etc. should be engineered and selected to be as cheap as possible while still getting the job done for a given amount of time.

however, nice parts may last longer and make more power.

88IROC350TPI

My point is why waste your money buying new parts when you already have parts that'll work and more than likely live a long time? No matter if you buy a $3000 forged crank or a $50 stock cast one there is absolutely nothing guaranteeing it's reliability.

a motor like the OP's isn't exactly a combo for huge power either... I would strongly suggest he work with the parts he has and if they break then big whoop... If you aren't breaking stuff you aren't trying hard enough.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

I cant even dream of running the kind of numbers you guys do for years probably, but I know if I personally made enough power to be hitting 9's, 10's, or even 11's, I would probably end up using some really expensive top end parts. I wouldn't feel good putting 7k RPMs on a factory shortblock with some $1500 heads on it. The carnage from bottom end parts trying to get out of the top of the engine and ruining my expensive heads would make me pretty ill.

But if you're running a factory bottom end and factory heads... and boosting hte hell out of it that's a little different, but I cant imagine big chunks of piston making it past the exhaust valve would work too well going through the turbo, would it?

DIGGLER

iTrader: (1)

my train of thought-
spend all your money on the car first. then, a cheap engine will fly. spending all your money on the engine and nothing on the car will be slow and dangerous.

1BADRZ28

iTrader: (2)

There are exceptions to every rule. I would never consider and cheap part for my build. Plus nothing stock can be used anymore. IMO, the magazine articles are putting the junk yard builds on the map. These newer modern engines can sure handle more than their 40 year counter parts. The metalurgy is way more sofisticated now. It's great to hear these stories but IMO for one that lasts forever there are many that don't. The magazines don;t tell you how many they used either to get the results. There is usually always more to their stories behind the scenes. (I had a buddy write for a magazine for a few years) The turbo's are having better results than nitrous and blower combos on stock shortblocks. There is a reason for it.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

We here don't see too many turbo applications running cast assemblies (stock LC2) breaking down when running E85, and they last a very long time. I know a guy who has over 600 passes on a cast LC2 setup running E85 well into the nines. Not saying the newer metallurgy doesn't help with pump gas applications, but with the advent of E85 I myself will stick with the 40 year counterparts...

1gary

Everytime someone says he "knows a guy",it's with that "guy's" money at risk.

Yeah...........OK.Just keep believing the Hot Rod comic book articles too.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Listen you dumb@ss, even Dave the original poster knows who I am referring to; Paul Miller over on TurboBuick.com, who goes by pacecarta, 600 passes on the cast LC2 assembly running 93 octane w/alky no less. I take it from your avatar you live in a van down by the river? You need to get out more, you really do...

http://www.streetfire.net/video/a-li...atco_86367.htm

1gary

Seems to me people resolve to name calling to show what they really know.

1BADRZ28

iTrader: (2)

You win, I am completely wrong. I didn't know that e85 makes engines stay together. Some many people talk about a "guy" they know. Is this the same guy, who paints cars for 100.00, can stop a radiator leak by adding a raw egg to the radiator,gets 500 hp from an untouched/molested 305, and has a car with a 100.00 bill taped on the passenger side of the dash......


I sure would like to meet that mysterious guy.


With determination and testing a lot is possible, but lets not let others believe it can always be done at a drop of a hat and by everyone.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Resolves to name calling lol? You responded to me, I did not respond to you, and your the one who went out of his way to assume that I was making the "I know someone" up, while then trying to correlate your assumption with some ridiculous magazine build. You asked for a name, and I gave you one, search turbo buick(s) if you need more information. LC2's all came cast from the factory, and these guys running cast setups have comfortably been running w/methanol in the tens for the last decade at upwards of 30 pounds of boost pressure. With E85, they are comfortably running in the nines...

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Why are you being an idiot? E85 decreases the chance of detonation...

I already gave his name my friend, would you like a cell phone number too? The engine is far from a "mystery" in the turbo buick world. '86 Grand National, stock bottom end, car currently belongs to Paul Miller, car previously belonged to Ken Seggie. Anything else you need to know...?

1gary

First and foremost what in god's name does these Thirdgen's have to do with GN's other then the turbo's.I was the main tuner of a housemates GN yrs ago in my old shop and you need to know it is apples and oranges apart.NOTHING even remotely close to each other.And here is the proof:

http://www.turbomagazine.com/include...ner/index.html

Read the article and you will easily see for one rod ratio's coming into play.Ken Duttweiler's systems are big bucks.$$$$.

So all I can suggest is go back to reading your glossy articles in comic books because you are clueless with very apparent NO hands on experience.

"I know a guy who"........................Yeah ok.kewl.