Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Finally got this car ready to go after solving last years overheating issues and oil leaks, etc. Over winter I tore down the hotside, reset the lifter preloads to be sure and installed new header gaskets/valve cover gaskets/etc. Re-wrapped the turbo manifolds with heat wrap and installed new T70 turbos instead of the old T60's. Same turbine spec but larger compressors.

I was tuning it on and off throughout april and the last 3 days before this track outing and felt it was ready once again. HOnestly expected the car to be alot quicker, thinking it would be more efficient with the larger turbo wheels. Car just didnt come around like I thought it would.

Best pass was 10.24 at 137 on something like 14-15 psi or so. I didnt log that run so not sure. The tune was off to start with. 13psi it only went 10.51 at 133. I leaned it back out and turned it up somewhere around .5-.75 psi to just below 14 psi total, and it went 10.24 at 137.
Leaned it out a tad more, gave it another psi boost, and it went 10.35 at 138+ with some wheel spin on 1-2 shift. Gave it another 2 deg timing to see if it would hold it, and total of 16psi boost and it went 10.30 at 140mph with some hestitation off the line... lagged on me since I didnt leave as high on the converter as I usually do.

DA was good in the 1400-1600 ft range last 2-3 passes, so weather was not an excuse. Car is just down on power overall. Last year, it went 10.17 spinning at 140mph on 16.5 psi but there was a 10-15mph headwind and 80+ deg out. This outting was in the 50's-60's and no wind at all. In good air it went 10.0's at 137-140 with 12-14psi with 60mm turbos and now its down abit.
1/8 mile is down 2-3 mph and .2 tenths easily with similar 60 fts. Car just not making power the first half the track like it used to but its picking up 30mph on the back end. Used to be around 27mph. Oh well, likely some more in it with some more tuning but hard to say. Will work on the launch tuning next to get it spooling better/quicker.

BUT, on these runs I ran with my 18x8.5" street wheels on front instead of my lightweight skinnies, so thats 50-60lbs difference I bet. That may make up for some ET/mph but still feels down overall.




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnnSCuWYSBA

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

50-60lbs of rotating mass increase in line with the front axle...i shouldn't have to tell you where some of your losses were

don't you love making a change thinking it'll help out and it turns around on ya?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

yeah, the car seemed to run better 1/8 mile with the 60mm turbos and then gain near 27mph on the back half of the track. Now I am down 2-3mph in the 1/8 but gained 30mph on the top end to keep same trap speeds. All the turbo maps say 70's will be more efficient for my combo than the 60's but it seems that the 60's spun way harder were alittle better for more torque/hp at the lower rpms. Oh well, atleast I have enough turbo to run 8's like I wanted to someday. Just need more heads/cam/boost and a real launch.

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

did you paint rear wheels?

DIGGLER

iTrader: (1)

have you thought about getting it up to 20+ psi boost? or are you trying to just keep it on pump gas? maybe these new turbos would be happier with more boost?

also, maybe try adding fuel or removing fuel each pass while watching your mph. once youve found the sweet spot there, start adding/removing timing until mph starts falling off.

i really wish i had a setup like yours to play with!! im so deep in the nitrous stuff now it will be hard to switch over. that, and the nitrous works so dang good.

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

Sure sounded great, looks good, i bet the smaller units spooled a bit faster.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Yep, those weld prostars were painted black spokes to match the GTO spares I have which are black spoked with polished lip around the rim. The corvette C6 wheels I run on the street, and in this vid you can see them on the front still, are factory competition gray colored.

I plan to either ditch the GTO spares in favor of some 17" weld front runners I saw on that 2011 mustang 5.0 I raced or just skip skinnies all together and get back to more of a street car setup. Run 18" drag radials on C6 wheels colormatched to my current setup and lose the 19" rears. I am liking that idea...drive in and race just how I drive on the street.

I want to keep on pump gas only for now, and it will handle 17psi so far. I have a meth injection pump that I need to install and hopefully with meth injection I can get up in the low 20's psi range. Else I'll throw in a 50/50 race gas mix just for fun. I am starting to think these bigger units will love to see more boost.

I did play with the tune at the track like I mentioned. I have a wideband logger and saw low 10's to 1 air fuel. I backed it out to 11.8's or so which is as lean as I will go and probably too lean but timing is low right now so its still fairly safe I think. I went from 10.5 at 133 to 10.24 at 137 just by taking air fuel to low 11's to 1 ratio, and half pound or so more boost. It did not pick up much after that when I went abit leaner so I added timing and it went from 138 to 140 but the air also cooled abit more so hard to tell where the gains were.

Oh well, its a good baseline for next time which I have no idea when that will be. Probably september.

skinny z

It's good to see you're back at it. The long layoff truly sucks.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Thanks, its been a year and few months since I had it at the track. Felt amazing. That first clean 10.51 pass felt like I went 9.50's and when I saw it was only 10.5 at 133, my heart sank abit...haha then i was like wow, its been along time since you been in this car if that felt that fast.

Think before end of the year I'm gonna bite the bullet and get a 9" rear or 12 bolt and look into a trans brake either over winter or maybe before year out, but given the timeline I get home to play with the car, I may just hold off and enjoy it while I can since its running right.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

I've had this post open since you posted it on sunday, and something just didn't sit right. I ran the numbers around in my head on the way to work and I've come to the conclusion that they just don't work.

Short version, I don't like your cam (it's too small for the rest of the combination, unless there is another reason for that), and I think you probably have too much converter and gear for the cam/rest of the combination (one way or another they're mismatched). Either way, you have plenty of everything to feed that engine to at least 6000rpm (you didn't really post enough detail like shift points... but educated guesses) and even a bit higher than that, at that point at 85% VE you should be in the mid 400hp range, higher with a better VE or more rpm, and you should get into the low/mid 500hp range before the AFR's run out of breath.


To run the MPH's that you're running you don't even need 700hp at the crank, and even your fastest 141 wills till be in the mid/high 700hp range which if everything is right you shouldn't need _nearly_ the boost your listing to make the power (something in the 7-10 range should get you there easily). This is working out to be a 2+2=3.5 thing.

What is really bugging me is that the way the math works out the 70's should be more efficient in the range that the math is pointing, but in the range that you're actually running, the 60's might do better (if it's a traditional T60-1 style map then really it's a little bit short and you're getting high in it's boost range, but typically most turbos move more air at higher pressure ratios so you need a bigger turbo to move the same air at a lower psig).

I wish I had more info, because something is not right but I'm not sure what it is...

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Cam was spec'd to peak near 5800 rpm. Not sure where its at but I typically shift between 5500 and 6000. I've tried those ranges so far. Heads are only 195cc AFR's, and I think this motor really wants 210 minimum and likely 220cc with a slightly larger cam to take full advantage of the 70's. One time on the dyno with the old 5500-ish stall, we ran it to 6000 and it was peaking what looked like 5200 but that doesnt seem right since converter went to 5500, stayed there most of the pull til the wheel speed caught up to it and then it pulled to 6000. It made 640whp on mustang dyno on just 12psi and with pig rich air fuel, 690whp on 17psi so its DEFINATELY well over 700 at the crank. Car isnt light, its probably near 3600 now with me in it. Was 3450 all motor, now i added all that exhaust/turbos/intercooler/etc but subtract 40-50lbs with fiberglass hood. And this night, I wasnt on the skinnies so add another 50 lbs atleast.

Converter is abit higher than it really needs. Its really stalling somewhere around 4200 but this time out its feeling abit higher than that which is not what I wanted. It used to be 5500 and I had them redo it and it is tighter but not quite enough. I think 3500 would be abit better suited for it but I plan to upgrade heads/cam down the road so I probably wont change converter just yet...we'll see tho.

Gear is not too much, its almost about right. 2.73's out back with 26" tire...works well for planned mid 140's mph wtih this rpm range even tho I"m not quite there yet.

My old 60's were not a 60-1 and flow abit more than those even tho 60-1's and 62-1's have made alot more power than me on sbf mustangs for some reason...go figure.

My ET sucks since I dont get off the line at all...only 1.64-1.73 60 foots that night. 10.51 at 133 isnt all that bad ET for MPH tho and its been 10.34 at 134 with the 60's and big converter since it had a better 60 foot.

Tune still needs tweaked but the car has power, its just not using it all. Definately a slight mismatch I think... Plan for the 4000 stall was so I could footbrake it to 3000. I expected to see 4-5psi on the footbrake by then with the small .68 a/rs but so far its not working out at all. I NEVER wanted a T-brake but now it seems I need it to get back into the 9's like it should be running.

I considered this a 350whp motor by itself and figured 14.7 psi would double that and make 700 which I"m not too far off if you think about it. Cam is smaller to keep it much more streetable and since I've always seen turbo cars make big numbers with small cams. Its a nice driving cam, idle is pretty comfortable at 850-900 and likely could get lower with more tuning but I'm not gonna try. Heads were reused from my old 383 since I ran out of funds/time to get larger stuff. I wish I would have gone larger but its my first boosted build so i got intimidated

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Here are the run breakdowns:

10.51 at 133: 13.2 psi 1st-2nd, 13.6 in 3rd gear, air fuel 10.3-10.5 to 1. only 14.4 deg of timing.

1.6737 60'
4.4895 330'
6.8064 at 105.68 1/8
8.8173 at 121.26 1000' (new feature to the track, 1000' mph
10.5156 at 133.06 1/4

10.24 at 137: This was somewhere around 14.5psi I think. forgot to record this run. Leaned out to about 11.0-11.2 to 1 air fuel.

1.6473 60'
4.3887 330'
6.6436 at 108.85 1/8
8.5992 at 124.69 1000'
10.2497 at 137.03 1/4

So it liked alittle leaner.

10.35 at 138: 15.4 psi now, gave it abit more on this run. Air fuel in the 10.9 to 11.3 range, average 11.0 to 1. 12.66-13.0 deg of timing.

1.7072 60' (spun just a bit on this one)
4.525 330' (spin slowed it down)
6.7762 at 109.49 1/8
8.7186 at 125.66 1000'
10.3556 at 138.25. So the boost picked up alittle mph but spin slowed it down. Still abit rich so lets lean it out.

Final run, 10.30 at 140: 16.3 psi, just abit more now. Leaned out to about 11.5 to 1 air fuel, fluctuates between 11.3 and 11.8, most in the 11.5 range. Timing I added abit 13.7 deg timing but it was pulling 3-4 deg as I got midway through 3rd and then it tapered out to pulling 0 deg, so not sure what happened, possible lean spot it didnt like but air fuel was consistant 11.3 through that range. :dunno:

1.7384 60 foot...(hestitated off the line since i didnt stall it up near as high and floored it from about 2500 instead of 3000. Makes a difference in spool)
4.5441 330'
6.7770 at 110.21 1/8
8.6967 at 127.33 1000' so its hauling the mail trying to catch up
10.3091 at 140.36 1/4. Got to 140+ trap but on 16 psi in that air i was expecting 143-144 on good tune since it did 141 on 14psi in similar conditions..maybe abit less DA but temps were within 10-12 deg I'd say if I remember right.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

I figured on 3600lbs, I forgot that you had the 2.73's- your site listed 3.42's. Yep, the 195's are on the small side for the rest of your combination, but they flow plenty to 6000rpm. I didn't even worry about your 60 fts, I estimated hp from the mph figuring that you had a few more MPH in it. I don't think my estimates were off at all...

210's would be nice, I'd probably even seriously consider something even bigger like 227's or something fairly heavily worked... something in the 24x at .050 would probably be more appropriate also, and then _maybe_ you'd be close on the converter, I still wouldn't be surprised if you ran better with a little less converter depending on who built it.

Well, or you can tame the converter down some and work out the tuning, but I still think that something isn't adding up...

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Plan is 220 airwolf heads and something in the low 240's duration, .600-.620" lift I think with good springs to match. Likely freshed up double springs like I have now, shimmed once again to 160-170lbs seat, with ~400 open. Should peak closer to 6300 rpm giving me alot more rpm range. A ton more air flow to boot, so 10-13 psi should be well into the 9's.

If your estimating 700's at crank, and i put down close to 700 at the tires, something is wrong there I have it closer to 800-850 on motor figuring 20-22% loss on a mustang dyno through a very high stall converter at the time. I do not think this is out of line.

I could ship converter off again to tighten up since I doubt I'll change heads this winter. I was planning on t-brake and rear by winter break but we'll see.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

You posted the times while I was writing the other post, haven't looked at it yet and not sure I'll get the chance tonight, but you're starting to see what I'm talking about, yes, somewhere in the mid to high 7xxhp at the crank, while your combination should be making at least (and your old dyno runs seem to agree) 100hp or more than that.

The funny thing is that the bigger turbos should play into the mismatches and that powerband on that engine better, so if there wasn't something else going on I would have expected you to go faster now.

Right now I'm sort of expecting that with a good, hard launch that car should knock down around a 9.2@148, with the soft launches that you're getting maybe a 9.6 or so @145.

My current guess is that you've got a tuning problem somewhere + something else going on. Maybe the tranny is doing something weird or something with your fairly low rpm peak + enough stall that if you get it to shift soon enough you're dropping below your stall or something... Are you doing any kind of data logging on the runs? (this is going to drive me crazy, I'm wondering if you could get a 9flat with traction or 9.5 as it sits by tweaking the combination and no major parts changes, maybe I'm just hoping for too much...)

That's a lot of spring/cam for HR lifters, I'd probably be looking at a rev kit or a bigger SR cam. Bigger heads should make the combination easier to tune/more forgiving/more responsive but honestly, the 195's should flow over 265cfm on the intake which should not fall flat till pretty close to 7Krpm or more with the right cam.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Looking at the logs, most of the runs show rpms up around 4900-5000 so it looks as if my converter is stalling abit higher than normal...maybe its low on fluid or the tranny is starting to slip? I'm not sure but dont think that would eat all my power. With the 2.73 gears it does appear to drop below stall for a bit unless my tach and rpm signal to the ecm is off...which it used to be alittle low in the past. 6K was actually closer to 6.5K rpm on the 383.

Oh well, i'll try again sometime later this year and hopefully figure out whats going on

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Also wondering if my single 3" feed pipe off the intercooler going into a stock LS1 throttlebody is restricting much? I may look for a 90mm TB and modify the intake elbow for it. Was also thinking of 3.5" feed piping but I've seen guys with single 3" do quite well.

88fastgta

iTrader: (9)

awesome job man....

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

"Also wondering if my single 3" feed pipe off the intercooler going into a stock LS1 throttlebody is restricting much"

Nice job Orr. I know on our N/A motors it would be. It think anything you can do to help flow/cfm would be the right move. It would be interesting to change out to a 3.5" and see what happens. Heck maybe even a 4" if you have the room.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

I seriously doubt it would matter, there are people making A LOT more power with 3" tubing...

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I could get it to fit and have plenty of 4" pipe laying around, i just need someone to weld on a 4" aluminum outlet to the intercooler. I was gonna go 3.5" since i dont want to buy a FAST 102mm TB when I could find a 85-90mm unit alot cheaper. Going over the rad tho gets pretty tight with a big 4" tube.

It may help flow more and thus see lower boost pressures at the intake since boost pressure is just measure of restriction in the intake tract. We shall see. But like Crossfire says, i dont think it would matter since i seen larger hp made on this pipe size.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

The pressure loss may also depend on how long the pipe from the intercooler to the throttle body is. Turbo charging is something I have not researched so I do not know much about it.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

If you're really considering it, first drill and tap a few 1/8" npt holes in your ducting and try measuring boost there vs in the manifold (probably check it at the same port as your boost gauge first to see how close it is). I suspect that you'll see less than a pound or 2 between right after the turbos and manifold, and that your biggest loss will be the intercooler and not the ducting. Even if you do find a significant loss in the ducting, at 3" it will be more of an issue of some tight bends or other losses and not the size.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

my piping is pretty straight forward out of the intercooler. Practically straight shot into the tb. Out of the turbos however there are a few immediate bends.

I got some 1/8 npt bungs that I have wanted to install to check pre intercooler and post intercooler pressures. Next time I get back, i'll install those and check to see whats up.

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

are you running one of these 2 intercoolers:
http://www.treadstoneperformance.com...2C+GM%2C+Viper

How do you like it?

gtpro700

If his heads are the newer AFR 195 eliminators then they flow around 280-290 cfm. So they definitly will make power up top with the correct cam. Cant wait to see this project ironed out Orr the car is sick already!!

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

The quality is great, looks well constructed, fits these cars well. I have the bigger one of the 2. Does exactly what I needed it to do, 2 side inlets and one top exit.

Now I dont have data on before/after temps or pressure drop so I cant comment on how good it really is, but after running for a long time and having the turbos glowing, I was romping on it with 13-14psi and car never hickup'd at near 220 deg coolant temps. Under hood temps had to be high, and my cold side piping is mild steel exhaust tubing so it heatsoaks alot. I think the intercooler is doing a good job, but until i get accurate data, its hard to say.

I plan to switch to a syclone IAT sensor since i'm on code $59 and put it up in the intake piping. The factory TPI MAT in the manifold just gets heatsoaked and reads constant temps, not displaying true intake air temps.

TPI TERR

iTrader: (9)

looks good at the track. nice track as well !

KWIK84

iTrader: (5)

Hmmmm....is it trying to drive through the convertor out of the hole? From what your back end mph gain is I would say you are good with flow up top, so maybe even possibly a pump problem? I say tighten up the convertor and put a 3.23 gear in it so your not beating up the transmission as bad.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I think its trying to get through that converter as well as it feels like its stalling higher than it should be, but I"m not exactly sure what driving through a converter feels like I may send it back and shoot for 3400-3500 stall and see what happens. The first time I requested 4000, it was 5500 in the motor which is WAYYY high. I had them tighten it up and its closer but still likely abit too high for this combo

DIGGLER

iTrader: (1)

greg at fti or lenny at ultimate.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Really dont want to dump 900+ in another converter... I went with PTC and heard great things about them from other turbo guys at the turboforums. Its likely only 300 to restall so I'd try that again before getting a new brand.

DIGGLER

iTrader: (1)

greg restalled mine for around 300, might wanna try him next. or lenny.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

They can rework another brands converter?

DIGGLER

iTrader: (1)

ya, as far as i know.... mine is a 9" continental converter out of a nhra top dragster.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

hmm i'll have to give that a thought. First i want to try retuning on meth injection and up that boost alot to see if the car wakes up like it should....then we'll see how the converter handles it and go from there.

Really think its time for heads/cam to really get things moving

83 Crossfire TA

iTrader: (2)

No matter what they say, they all just use the same standard parts, sonnax and GM have published charts about what you get with different combinations and even what you get when you machine a specific amount off the stator. The only time it becomes a bit of a mystery when some of the cheesier builders go and bend the veins instead of machining them...

DIGGLER

iTrader: (1)

i would put some decent fuel in it and double the boost.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I guess i can put the 13 lb wastegate springs in and use the controller to hit 25psi or so. Some turbo blue gas up the road should do ok.