I guess your right, I raced a 800rwhp BBC when I was H/C 355. I beat him with my 8.7@90 to his 8.8@66

Valid point, however I would imagine the drivetrain for 2000hp car would be significantly more parasitic than a standard 12 bolt for a 400-500 hp vehicle.

All this BBC talk really has me wondering why the Texas mile is dominated by Exotics (who talk down on GM, "mu llet-racers"), Ford GT's, Supras, Vipers and this year LSx seems to have stepped up.

 

LOL, fixed...

 

Couple of things I need to point out. The first of course, the video that I provided was not meant to compare those two particular engines, it was to question what exactly you were implying by using the words slight advantage. The amount of boost pressure used to obtain the numbers is irrelevant without knowing the cam specs, cylinder head flow, and size of the turbo's being used. The NRE video was to show the SBC's ability, and the SBC's ability only gets better with every passing year because people still continue to push it. 2300 FWHP was by no means it's limitation, it was just what Nelson was able to squeeze out of his creation, I'm sure someone will exceed that. Second, you asked for a just as refine vehicle to compare it with the LMR Corvette, so I provided the Calloway Sledgehammer, which accomplished what it did over two decades ago. You give the car its props, but then you point towards the Sledgehammer as if it was somehow "capped" at 800-HP, with an estimate of 200-MPH in the standing mile, but how do you know it wasn't capable of more horsepower simply by turning up the boost? 800-HP back then was not only unreal, but unheard of on the street, so there was no reason for Calloway to push it any further than that because there was simply no competition for it, but that doesn't mean that he couldn't of. Also, there is a lot more to standing mile numbers than just looking at RWHP, way too many variables. The Boost Logic Supra clocked off 246-mph while making under 1300-RWHP, while Johnny Bohmer's Ford GT clocked off 253-mph making over 1400-RWHP, so looking at it that way, dropping in that Nelson Racing Engine in the video I provided into any third gen, and gearing it appropriately, should annihilate those numbers....

 

I think in some instances we're just getting off the discussion. What I was originally getting from the discussion was the competition between the two generations, and which was favored.

The talk of turbos and superchargers kind of take away which engine can be more powerful. the only way i see the two being compared while boosted is the reliability, or how much the stock block/stock bottom end can take.

 

well it's a ways off, but whitedevilTA and me are using the identical TC-76 turbonetics turbo, his will be on a 5.3 LS motor and mine will be on a zz4 short block 350 with stock l98 corvette Aluminum heads and HSR.

we will have only 25~ish cube difference, and both be using stock GM heads and blocks/rotating assemblies. (zz4 is an l98 short block essentially). also we both have 6-speeds so our cars will be VERY similar minus the lsx vs SBC.

It will be an interesting comparison

 

Exotics are more aerodynamic than most cars that can use a BBC up front Plus those cars are already designed to go 200+ mph or atleast some of them are. Most cars that can fit a BBC arent designed to go 200+ So theres definately alot more work involved. The amount of power to push through wind resistance at 200+ is a good bit of power. BBC's on boost will make the power but even still, the aerodynamics is a concern

That said, do you know of the 69 camaro known as Big Red? Top open road race car back in the late 80's-90's beating all the top exotics doing well over 200 mph. I think it hit 222 as a top speed. 540" big block over 800 hp on motor. Someone could do this today i'm sure and nearly triple that power with boost and run 240+

 

Way off my topic!

 

Man, the first Gen camaro big red shows what americans do, all motor baby! Don't see any imports or exotics getting it done on bare nuts.

 

Yes it will be for sure! How much boost are you planning on running on your set up? Mine will be around the 14 psi range.....pretty sure thats around the limit on a stock 5.3 but I am willing to push it right to it's limits lol.

Last I heard the top speed street driven car record actually belonged to a 1986 trans am. A lot of you have probably heard of it. Extreme Polly is what they call the car from polly motorsports. I think they hit around 265 mph in it and unless it's been broken was the record on a street driven car. Pretty sure it's a big cube small block with a HUGE procharger and I want to say some sort of 6 speed transmission with ultra low gearing. Pretty cool that a third gen was the champ in top speed records lol.

 

Going to be shooting for 16 psi in my 5.3 when the turbo goes on, then try for more, lol.

 

I'm sure it's possible with meth injection. We'll see how much power mine makes....if I don't hit my goal, I'm cranking up the boost and possibly adding meth injection too! LOL, it's addicting.

 

standing mile? i can only imagine what some of the turbo bbc drag radial cars would run if they swapped out their trans/gear/brakes/wheels. i bet as they sit they could hit 200 back to a stop in 1/2 mile.

 

polly motorsports is a big cube bbc with twins last i heard

 

What it comes down to is the cylinder heads being used. Once we get into very particular heads for the SBC, and I'm not referring to the typical Air Flow Research and Trick Flow commercial heads, but real cylinder heads meant to flow some serious freaking air, then all bets are off. Two cylinder heads come to mind....;

The RFD SB2.2 Cylinder Heads

http://www.raceflowdevelopment.com/RFD-heads-SB2-2.htm

... and

The ARAO (Old Dominion) 32 Valve Cylinder Heads

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRKTRLD2h8k

 

Pretty sure he is still running the Procharger....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9lDlL1BVns

 

Yes at the moment he is currently running a procharger. Thought it was on a small block as well now but I could be wrong. Reason for ditching the twins was because they were saying the power came on way too brutally and the wheels would spin in almost every gear once it came into boost. The procharger was more gradual which is why they are now using that instead.

 

Will be a blow through, non innercooled. A carb is like cheating since it cools the incoming air with the dense fuel charge, i will probably add a fuel cooler to help it out, but no methanol injection will be used.

 

Check out the dyno results.
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/post...91-post17.html

 

Nice numbers.....how come everyones air intakes were removed? Trying to squeeze every last bit out on the dyno? And trust me I will not be afraid to show my dyno numbers when my cars back together.

 

you damn right! 3 out of 4 were removed.

 

Congrats, looks like you guys finally hit over 400rwhp!!! Should be some good racing come May.

 

those are some # happy dynos...wow.

 

I see where one car was over 400rwhp from 5250rpm to 6650rpm where the dyno pull was stopped. That is a lot of horsepower under the curve. With the shift extension of the Yank SS4000 torque converter that car will not be under 400rwhp going down the track except at the immediate launch. That car might see a 60' in the 1.5's. No, not all cars had the airfilters removed. Also that car is an unlocked A4 on the dyno.

 

as much as i can LOL. whatever gets me to 650rwhp

 

I'm curious to know what they made with the intakes still on which is where they would be for power under normal everyday driving. Did it really gain that much taking them off?

I also noticed you guys were on a dynojet. Were those numbers SAE corrected or no?

Wow shooting high! I'm setting my goal low since 9 times out of 10 if you set it too high it dissapoints you. Learned that from experience....and being dissapointed LOTS of times lol. I want 550 RWHP out of mine and if I can play with the tune and get more then I most definately will!

 

eh not to terribly high, i'm shooting for under 2 hp/ci with boost.

 

I guess that answers the question from years back as to whether the OEM TPI twin filter housing will support 400 hp.
I see that it's "no". That supports the math.
The cold air box 1989GTA has built is what's needed I suppose.

 

I was running 100 KPA with or without the the air tube in place.
I only took it off to keep the playing field level. We continued to tune AFR because it was rich at WOT.
Here is a picture of my CAI it has a K&N 3 1/2" filter at the bottom:

 

I made 392whp on the 10th and final pull on a hot 90 deg garage air day. Power was dropping off the last 3 pulls. No doubt in my mind with abit more time and cooler conditions i would have cracked 400whp. Thats thru the TPI box

 

Perhaps with the air box removed, 400whp may have easier to come by.
I'm only basing my question on the engineering tables from K&N and the theoretical need for air flow vs hp. The math says there's not enough filter area in the twin TPI air box to support that much hp without the filter itself posing a restriction. That's not to say that you can't make that power with it, it's obviously been done (witness your car and the guys in SoCal). Put the smallest filter on a 900 hp drag race engine and it'll still surpass the 400hp mark.
It's just easier to do without it.

 

So, i am assuming all of these are built engines with heads or what? The one that was over 400 was a 368 cubed engine with AFR heads, i would hope it madeat least 400 RW,LOL. The LS1s dont even use a 4 inch bore and many make the 400 mark with just cam and bolt ons and some dont.

I have no idea what i would dyno on my 6.0, but when i find out i will let you guys know.

 

i would like to see your dyno graph laid over the tpi that made 400. would be interesting to see the differences lower in the rpm range.

 

Of course built motors. But when you do, video it the same way I did it.

 

Here you go!
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/post...572-post7.html

 

I've run with and without filters, saw no gains at the track. Changed to 3.5 MAF and 3.5" piping to a AEM dryflow filter and saw nothing once retuned. May have been capable of 10hp more but i never redyno'd it. Cracked the flexplate so never could get back on. I wanted nitrous numbers too.

The math/theory says one thing but not all engines are the same. Not all can make the same hp per cfm so if x cfm is available, there could be a,b, or c hp produced.

 

Very true.
But there's a reason why we don't run a little 4" x 2" open element air filter. We know bigger is better. I guess it's just to what degree.

 

Seriously? My setup is top end and pulls to 7200, i dont make low end TQ like the TPI motor with a cam this big.

What do you mean? Showing the graph?

 

Well at the track for a fact my car ran 3 mph faster without filters. I race a friend with a 400 SBC Carb in a 86 Monte Carlo. I had him about a Half car then he pulled on me on top end. Second race without filters I pull 3 Cars on him top end. So it does make a difference. Still trying to come up with something where it won't effect the speed of the car while going down the track. Just don't want the car to fall on its face at high speeds.

 

Well its good that it worked for you. For me I didnt see anything on a mid 11 second car. I even tried 3.5" cai with and without filter. My TPI intake had bottoms cut out and ram air tubing installed to the fog lights to force feed air in. 118mph winds must have had good air velocity through there to make up for the lack of csa

Heck I have 3.5" intakes on my turbo car with same AEM dryflow filters I had on the 3.5" CAI on the 383, and I didnt gain anything from what I could tell when I took the entire intake off the turbo which has a 4" inlet. But man those things really whistle with no filters on.

 

"I'm only basing my question on the engineering tables from K&N and the theoretical need for air flow vs hp"

That is exactly why I built the air box I did. In my case, why have a monoblade and 3.5" air intake if the air filter is choking it? I have enough surface area with my air filter system to support 1300cfm. I based it on K&N's equations for airflow.

 

i know that. my LS1 is the same way.
i meant i would like to see the graphs overlaid to see how much more torque the tpi car was making lower in the rpm range than your car.

 

LOL, a ton. Damn TPIs are stump pullers.

 

Thanks for the flowers

All this time you guys have been bashing our efforts on TPI motors, you really have missed the point....they are "Small Block Chevy" engines and all they need to make power is "airflow" which is what we have have been trying to accomplish.

You have the advantage of getting the right parts on your engines from the factory. No one has bothered to produce the right parts for us so, we have had to do it on our own. (except for heads)

Granted, they will never be what modern technology has produced, but it is fun to see what we can get from old school parts.

Imagine what 3rd gens would have been like if GM had done it right.

 

Even those need work most of the time.

 

no one is bashing sbc motors, just saying why dump thousands into a tpi when there are better higher flowing intakes out there that will retain EFI. I remember probably 10 years ago when I had a tpi motor in my car. After a base, runners, porting this and that I had a ton of money into it, dropped a performer rpm intake and 750 dp holley on there and picked up .3 first pass off the trailer. It only got faster from there, now there are several intake choices if you want to make power for a good price, we didn't have those options back then. No one locally tuned them then, and they certainly don't do it now.

 

my LT1 is setup pretty similar to zone's 6.0. i have a smaller cam than him(nitrous oriented hydro roller, too), vic jr., and ported factory heads. 350 cubes, stock shortblock. made 425rwhp @6700 thru a th400, 9", and 28" slicks on the dyno. with a manual trans and street tires it would have been up near 470ish i would imagine.

 

That would be interesting to see how it would do with a stick shift. My buddy's 406 with solid roller is up near 480-500whp now. 87 TA on this board, traps 130 on motor alone. Doing those numbers with a hydraulic roller is impressive. Theres a 406 sbc on chevelles.com that made 640hp on engine dyno with a hyd roller. That should make huge dyno numbers in a manual trans.

Your setup doing 425 is among the best i've seen an LT1 of stock cubes dyno. Some of those AI/LE3 packages are around 410-420 but usually stick shifts,not a TH400 with big tires and a 9" How much power do you think 9" and 28" tires eats on the dyno? The th400 eats a lot in itself.

 

That's very true.

Not necessarily bashing, just believe its easier(for the casual hot rodder) to do it with an LS platform. You guys put extensive money and R&D into the TPI set-ups, I never said I wasn't impressed.

Now if only we had a track with good air, we could really see our cars shine.

 

"not a TH400 with big tires and a 9" How much power do you think 9" and 28" tires eats on the dyno? The th400 eats a lot in itself"

Yep. That makes it more impressive.

 

you mean if they offered a good 5 speed with the 350?

or perhaps if they went forward with the turbo 4.3..

or gave us subframe connectors from factory.

ok i'm done