How did you come up with the idea that my car only trap speed at 106mph? My old combo trapped 112.24 with 340whp. I dont know what it's doing now with atleast 43 more whp. You guys just dont know that those same cars runs slower in SoCali because our air is not that clean. Plus we get a lot of cross winds at out track. Anything is possible.

 

No. Speaking only for myself, I'm a street racing hater.

If it was on a track, with real data, with the mods of both cars known, perhaps then.

But, this is the "Organized Drag Racing and Autocross" forum. This thread is a "kill story".

Go find the other guy and both of you go out to California Speedway. Let us know how it comes out.

 

In the spirit of full disclosure, I had just barely gotten the car running at the time. It was running 13.3's at altitude, I expected 12.3's at sea level. It actually ran a best of 12.43, with 12.5's being more typical. The air was terrible, around 3000' DA at a 1100' elevation track, with head & cross winds and high humidity. NHRA has since adjusted their altitude correction factors, so a Bandimere 13.3 is now a (drum roll, please) 12.5 at sea level.

After getting back from Topeka, I was sorting things out such as 2-step setting & tire pressure, and the fall air started getting better, so it started picking up to the low-13's consistently up here. Just before the last weekend of racing, I finally got the auxiliary tranny cooler mounted, and the car picked up even more, and finally got consistent (surprise, surprise). The best it ran was a 12.889 @ 106.4 MPH at 7200' DA with a 16 MPH head wind (according to the track data). Using only the new NHRA correction factors of .9405 (ET) & 1.0563 (MPH), that's 12.12 @112 MPH at sea level.

I also haven't done any PCM tuning yet.

This is the same car that I took on a 1000 mile round trip to Nebraska last month to visit family. It averaged 23.2 MPG for the trip.

I hope to get it on a dyno for some tuning before the racing season starts. It'll have a little more cam and stall this time around.

Oh, the NHRA correction factors for 2100' are 0.9830 & 1.0165 for ET and MPH, respectively. Take your data from 2100' and multiply by those numbers to get what you would have run at sea level. To determine what you'd run at 2100' based on your sea level data, divide by those factors.

 

LS parts are still expensive as **** aside from the stock parts.
once you move beyond a cam, your hp/$$ will move back over to about where the sbc is.

i have em both, im not biased.

 

"Oh, the NHRA correction factors for 2100' are 0.9830 & 1.0165 for ET and MPH, respectively"

Some do not believe the correction factors. I suggest they take their cars to Littleton Colorado and run them. Last time at the Los Angeles Invasion the DA started out around 3200' and by the afternoon it was up to 3500'. That prevented a 11 second run with my old motor. I hope for better air this time around.

 

You keep bringing up how your DA is so terrible there but yet you ran at 112 mph with only 340 RWHP? Makes no sense to me. 340 RWHP here on the east coast in better air would get you around a 109 mph MAYBE 110 with a good set up. Plus a C5 Z06 is 400 lbs less than you and with bolt ons would easily make the same RWHP.

 

Yea but the beauty of the LSx is that you don't need aftermarket parts. A set of stock ported LS6 heads are plenty for even a decent size cam and thats a pretty potent combo. To me heads like the $2K trick flows and that are just a waste of money since the stockers with some porting flow so damn well.

 

Reffing a car is hit or miss, some refs are lenient while others throw the book at you. There are several LSx swapped cars in Cali including RX7's, Porsches, 3rd gens, etc. Me and TPITerr got it all taken care of by running almost everything (Dash, evap, gas tank, etc.)


I came up with 106mph because (and I might be mistaken but) I'm pretty sure it trapped 106mph at LA Invasion last year with your current set-up? I know there was only one TPI car trapping over 110mph for a fact. What did you trap/run?



Either way, I guess anything can happen on the streets

 

I was going to invite them up here, but that's pointless until they are both on a track somewhere. Doesn't really matter where.

It is kind of fun watching the flatlanders up here for the first time, tearing their car apart in the pits after their first pass...

 

Or you can throw in a junkyard 5.3 with a turbo and shoot for 600rwhp....

 

Broke 3rd gear on that run. I just threw it in 4th and punched it. Two of us trapped over 110. One the first pass I did. I made adjustments in the pits for the second pass and thats when the trans broke. 1989GTATransAM trapped 113mph.

Todays technology with Gm, Dodge and Ford engines with decent bolt ons the cars runs a second faster. Mostly in the low 12's. Cam changes in the same cars will run in the 11's. All the new stuff is getting very very hard to beat with old tech. Aw but its fun trying. Well the best part is that our cars are paid for. So it feel good to beat some of those cars with monthly payments of $550-$800 not including insurance. But to see a TPI car break off a few of these new cars is an eye opener.

 

i will honestly say that about the only reason im running an LT1 in my race car is because of all the snooty LS1 people. it is enjoyable outrunning someone that doesnt think your old technology engine can get out of its own way.

 

Sucks that you build your car based on other people. TPIs and LT1s can be modded to outperform newer engines but there is a reason they are no longer in production.

LSA engines putting down 550rwhp with a pulley upgrade and tune is the way of the future.

 

Hmmm sounds like a very familiar build

And honestly when I'm done I can't image I'll have much more than $4k in the motor and I def didn't do it on the cheap like it could have been. Try beating a 600HP engine without spray for that price!

 

LT1 went in my gta because i put an LS1 in my 4th gen. im still running the LT1 because its entertaining.

 

Well said!!!

Throw a set of 18* heads on the old school engine and all bets are off.

 

you can pick up a complete used set of 18* heads for $1500 or so... thats what a good CNC port would cost in stock LS heads. all the other stuff for a sbc is much cheaper, such as timing chains, rockers, cams, and rotating assembly.
sbc has a better oil pump/oiling system.

 

Actually i think they CNC job on the LS heads can be as cheap as 900$ if i read right, pretty sure it was CNC, might have been hand port though, but either way, you get over 300 CFM, but you find used heads that flow that on tech for as low as 600$, then there is the L92/LS3 head that is the budget beast flowing 330 stock for 600 used all the time.

My fav part of the late LT1 and SBC was the good rods they started putting in them.

 

I completely agree. Way too many "MY LSX can outrun anything!" guys.... I like the idea of being the underdog. Not to mention the LT1 looks cooler IMO. Also SBC heads can be ported for as little as $600-700. Lloyd Elliot does $800 starting i think... $900 for LE1..

 

That price is no different than the LS heads. The LT just has too many limitations and aftermarket for them is lacking.

(here we go LTx VS LSx) LOL

I will go old SBC before LTx if that is my option, but i am a carb guy and the LS with a carb looks the coolest, no distributor and no provision for one makes it a really good looking setup. Not to mention i love the coils on valve covers.

 

Again how is the aftermarket lacking? We have been over this before. Plenty of parts available. The intake shouldn't be considered as the factory on is pretty darn good, a little bit of porting and it will flow just as much as needed. The bottom end is just a gen 1 SBC so the parts are definitely there. Plenty of ppl who tune the LT's, plenty of exhaust options. IDK where you get the idea that it has no aftermarket support. The LT1 is an updated SBC, The only difference being the heads which there are still plenty of satisfying options. Sure you can see more flow out of an LS based head but it's also newer technology, I would hope that it could... Don't get me wrong LS motors are pretty sick but the LT isn't limited by aftermarket support b/c it IS there. I don't like how everyone downs on the LT1 just b/c they only used it for 6 years.... there is still plenty of power to be made... And this is a conversation not an argument. haha

 

edit

nevermind, thought you said something different about ls motors, but you were talking about lt1's.

LT1's are decent motors...reverse cooling is the main advantage. Guys can get away with abit more compression on street setups than older sbc's it seems

 

This debate gets old after a while. I think we can all agree that LSx by far has the best technology therefore making it excellent for making power easily. LT1 is a great cheaper alternative that will essentially "bolt in" to our cars with not much having to be changed. They still make power, but do not have as great heads as an LSx. SBC is.....well it's been around since the 40's so I think we can say it's proven the test of time. My brother's heads/cam/carbed 350 in his bird will hang right there with a stock LS1 4th gen and I'm sure with more rear gear he will edge one out no problem.

And I will agree with ZONE......coil packs on the valve covers are pure sex IMO!!! Love the look.

 

I hate how ppl constantly say "A heavily modded 350 gen 1 will hang with a stock LS1" Not true. A built right 350 gen 1 will make a stock LS1 it's bitch. I like LS1's but I hate how all LS guys talk down on the gen 1's. That's my main reasoning for staying LT1. Too many cocky LS guys... If were talking all out race motor then yes an LS is top dog but not everyone in the world sports 6-700hp on a DD. Most have a cam, intake, exhaust. All gen sbc's can play with ease at those power levels....

 

Easier said than done. What kind of mods on a gen 1 are you thinking will destroy an LS1? My brothers car is a pretty tame setup but it is tuned very well. 9.0:1 compression with just trick flow aluminum heads and a comp XR288 cam. It's got a vic jr. on it as well and a 750 vacuum secondary carb. The gearing is killing it but he's raced 2 mild bolt on LS1 cars and both beat him slightly. The motor is a low compression engine which doesn't help either. I never said it was heavily modded but if you check the facts, I would venture to bet a stock LS1 head outflows my brothers aftermarket trick flows.

 

honestly, it doesn't sound like your brothers is a "built right" gen I. too much cam/head/intake for the compression. add a VS carb and goofy gearing and you've got the recipe for a turd.

oh, and the SBC wasn't widely available till 1955, not the 40's

 

No offense, but he didn't build it. He bought it from a freind of ours already built. The engine at one point made 374 RWHP....hardly a turd. It has a cat in right now and way too low gearing for the set up as well as rich winter jets which is why it performs how it does at the moment. Back when the car had a T5 and 10 bolt it went 12.0 @ 114. The kid changed the set up to a viper T56 and a dana 44 rear with 3.55 gearing. With the vipers LOW 1st gear and the 3.55's it'll almost do 60 mph in 1st gear which is terrible.

My brother is ordering a wideband to fine tune it and he has 4.10's to go in as well so were going to get it as close to a 12.0 car again as we can. Gotta yank that cat out too. The best time car has gone how it sits minus the cat is a 12.8 @ 108....so just under a bolt on LS1 car.

The car drives surprisingly well mannered on the street even under 2k RPM's with the vic jr. and big cam. Def not a "thrown together" combo. Only reason for the low compression is because it has a stock ZZ4 short block in it. It's got way more potential but it needs a little massaging to get it there.

 

My 99 TA has bolt ons. Ran 12.75 at 106.9... 2.73 gear on nittos so only a 1.87 60 foot.

My buddy's afr 190 head L98 with stealth ram, with 280xfi cam and my tune went 12.2's at 111.xx on a 1.70 60... not high compression, no fancy bottom end

My 99 isnt the fastest bolt on LS1, but shows even moddest mods on a mild 350 can hang with bolt on LS1 cars. That combo isnt special Cam only LT1's are in the high 11's on the right car. LS1's are in the 10's. HUGE difference in head flow.

 

It is very difficult to try to be logical with a person who has already made up their mind. They really need to justify their decision, so logic simply isn't acceptable.

Years ago, I had a co-worker that decided to buy a new '88 Camry. A year later, there was a water cooler discussion about the quality of domestic vs. import cars. He stated he hadn't had a lick of trouble with his Camry. However, I knew he had it back to the dealer at least 4 times in that first year, which I pointed out to him. His response was that those were minor things that were taken care of under warranty. Well, Consumer Reports would get an "excellent" from him, while the guy who bought the '88 Le Sabre would complain and complain about having to take it back to the dealer just once to get some minor thing fixed. Still, he was convinced he had the superior car in that Camry.

One of the most awesome cars at our track (in my mind) is a '70 Nova, full steel, full interior, no mini-tubs, etc. (does have a 6-point). When he drives it from the pits to the staging lanes, it doesn't sound all that wild. With a Gen I 355, 750 Holley, TH350, it runs 10.9's up here, low 10's at sea level, through the mufflers. No spray. When you look under the hood, about the only things that stand out are the belt timing drive and crank trigger.

But, that car is trailered to the track, in an enclosed trailer. Could I have done what he did to my SBC (Gen 1) Camaro and get similar results? Probably (although the Camaro would weigh more than his Nova). Would I be willing to drive it daily? Probably not. I was prepared to do upgraded Vortec heads, double pumper, more cam, more stall, more gear to get another second off of its previous ETs, but that would have reduced its streetability. As it was, I chose to go LS1, and with a little more stall and gear, with all-factory parts except headers and air inlet, no tuning, it took more than a second off the ZZ4 ETs, and gets as good or better fuel economy.

The issue here isn't which platform is "best". This started with a claim of a "kill" by someone who is a "hater" of one of those platforms. And the claims can't even be substantiated. It is the OP who has an attitude, and several other attitudes have come out of the woodwork in the process.

Build what you want. Frankly, Scarlet, I don't give a damn. I do appreciate useful information when I ask a question. What I don't appreciate is being told that the choice you made is fundamentally better than the choice I'm considering only because my choice is different than yours.

And, quite frankly, the racing I do doesn't depend upon how fast you are (assuming you can meet the ET for the class) or how much money you spent on your car. I've been beat by people with a slower and less expensive car than mine, but I've also beaten a whole bunch of people who are faster than me and have spent a bucket load more money on their car than I have (and I don't have the extra expense of a trailer). To say nothing of beating slower more expensive cars.

If you're happy with your car, enjoy it. If you aren't happy with your car, don't come in here and put down those who have a different platform and are happy with their car.

And I still have no tolerance for street racing. It is illegal, it is dangerous, and it is stupid.

 

I agree with you there, but I don't care much for the Gen1, Gen II putdowns by most LSX guys though. That's the only thing that drives me nuts. If you like you LSx say so but you don't have to rag on Gen1's and Gen II's. Not everyone has the thousands of dollars required to do an LSx swap. Lowest I've seen an LS go for around here is 1k and that was just a block with internals....
And no this wasn't aimed at members on here specifically, but if you trash Gen 1's and Gen II's then it's aimed at you... C'Mon guys mustang lovers are worse than us at **** talking, haha. Don't stoop to their level...

 

just wanted to say for the record that what i said in my previous post about it being a turd was worded poorly. i in no way intended offense with my comment, but merely was trying to state that you guys currently have a bit of a mismatch (which you admited when you said you're looking to change some things up to get it to run better).

no harm intended friend.

 

Did a stock shortblock LS1 car ever outrun my stock shortblock LT1 car? with nitrous and factory head castings? i havent checked recently.

 

I have seen Factory LT's in the high 12's...

 

The L98/TPI supporters always compare H/C/I full bolt-ons vs. a LS1 with minor bolt-ons.

There are bolt-on LS1's deep in the 11's, I doubt there are bolt-on TPI's in the low 12's let alone high 11's?

You can throw money at a Pinto an make it faster than a Vette....but mod for mod the LS1 over LT1 over TPI/Gen 1 SBC.


Not everyone is putting down the Gen 1 SBC or LT1's but they are just valid recommendations based on experience to fellow 3rd gen owners that are ready to invest $$$ looking for better performance.

With junkyard 5.3 and 6.0s going for cheap ($500-600 complete drop-outs), the LSx is dollar/hp the best choice hands down.

The LT1 and TPI market is limited and diminishing, try to tune and LT1 or TPI in So Cal I know of 1 or 2 remaining tuners.

BTW, what kind of numbers does your car put down with the mods in your sig?

 

No idea, never had it dynoed. But with terrible 3.23 gears, a dead posi unit (one wheel peel), a slightly undersized carb, bald *** tires, and a crap tune (as I can't tune carbs) she ran a 13.5 @106 mph. with a 2.2 60'. It was my first build and I just haven't done anymore to her since I was 18.

 

I can no longer justify a older sbc build that will make just over 300 fwhp when a 5.3 will do it stock, I can do the swap carbed for about 1500 and that engine will run hard, we just went 8.0 in the 1/8th with a stock long block and stock cam with a 5.3, carbed. Full weight mustang with roll cage, but no Ac, ect.

So personal reference on my end is justified.

 

Stock 6.0 with stock ls2 heads milled and un ported went 9s all motor pump gas with a carb conversion, never seen any old sbc or otherwise go that fast on pump gas, all motor with stock parts cam only.

 

Proof please....

 

I'm not a supporter of either side since i have both and know what both are capable of. A post was asked above regarding heads/cam/sbc just hanging with bolt on or stock LS1's. I was merely posting an example of this
Anyway, yes there are bolt on LS1's in the deep 11's but they are in gutted race cars. 3000-3200lbs is NOT factory weight.

My factory Bolt on TPI car at 3450 went 12.9's on lean tune. Drop that down to 3000-3100lbs and you'll see mid 12's. Not bad for weak heads/cam. LT1's have dyno'd 330whp with bolt ons in a 6spd. Drop them down 3000lbs and its near 11's. Weight makes a difference. Cant compare gutted LS1 to factory weight LT/TPI stuff.

But yes, mod for mod, to a certain point, LSx is best bang for buck. IF you are talking brand new race build from block up, sbc will likely wipe the floor clean. Theres alot that can be done with SBC since guys have been using them for 40 years...the experimentation has been done. 15-18 deg heads on a sbc can create an interesting mule

 

what are you running these days? 3050 raceweight right? So a pretty light combo, also do LT1 motors still have the rpm limit stuck at 6700? 6800? I think I recall my buddy talking about that due to the opti signal.

 

NO other sbc came with heads like modern LSx motors Thats why.

My buddy just made 767whp on a LS2 cam only with 11 psi of boost on E85. Stock head bolts. 10 to 1 compression. Mustang dyno LSx motors do have potential

 

No it's or OEM rotor style. MSD fixed this problem with their cap/rotor kit.

 

I guess you're not basing this off personal knowledge based on your build and its performance. Should off dropped in a 5.3 like Zone89RS!!!!! Just sayin, don't knock it unless you've tried it.

^^^^

 

Just like every other LSx guy... I'm done with this thread. I forgot the LS1 was touched by the hand of god... Get over it, no LS guys can accept that a LTx of Gen 1 can run with their god motors. LS motors are great but the owners act just like mustang owners... They are blinded and won't see anything under the LS platform...This is what TGO is turning into, go LS or get bashed... I'm unsubscribing to this thread...

 

This is a public forum you have to be open to criticism and not be so sensitive. When you make a statement and don't back it up, your going to get called on it.

Diggler argued for the LT1 and backed up his statements with his personal vehicle. You on the other hand came up a little short after making such bold statements.


Actually the 2011 5.0's are putting down some impressive numbers but your SBC build would probably make it its bitch lol.

 

No harm taken!

I admit I have never owned an LTx equipped car but I have owned numerous gen 1 cars and LSx cars. I love the LSx...it is a strong runner and the technology is great. Even my brothers hurting 350 right now surprised a few of my 4th gen LSx buddies when he was on thier quarter panel until 4th gear when they let out. A V8 is a V8. They can and will be built to make serious power. My brothers mild set up when it is tuned in correctly I am sure will easily hand it to all of my buddies bolt on LSx cars.

The problem is that when you build an LSx, since it is the "hot thing" at the moment, there is a plethora of info on what combos work, how to tune, etc. Basically, copy someones build and you will have a strong runner. The problem with the Gen 1 motors is that you have kids that will take a truck 350 with 8.5:1 compression, throw some mismatched heads, cam, and autozone carb on it, and wonder why it made 275 RWHP. There is not the same info on the internet on how to correctly build and tune a gen 1 motor, be it carbed or FI, as there is for the LSx engines. Most people simply have no clue what they're doing with the older engines which is why they have such a bad rap. I can't even begin to count how many kids with the above set up I mentioned go around saying they have a "450 HP engine" and then get stomped by a stock mid 90's mustang or something. Hell the guy my brother bought his car off of picked up around 60 RWHP by swapping from a 600 to a 750 carb on the dyno. Then he gained another 20 or so after having the distributer curve custom set for his specific combo.

 

i wouldn't say they're boats though
my 00 SS weighs in at 3439. take out the spare tire ~3409

 

i believe its still somewhere around 3050, so its a fairly light car. but it is also nearly in the 8's with an LT1 that retains most all of its factory parts aside from the valvetrain and intake.

the LT1 cars are limited to 7100ish if you choose to stick with the factory pcm/opti. its easy enough to replace with a megasquirt/sbc dizzy/sbc intake, though. dont know why it never caught on with the LT1 guys..... one of the first few things the LS1 guys do is put a $1200 f.a.s.t intake/tb on.

 

Here is a stock long block record(LS):

9.98 @ 132-- 346in.--SSPerformance--2900#--HYD--STOCK 241's (Current "Cam Only" Record Holder)

Pretty light but even rocking stock 241s? Damn.

 

This one is stock cubed with heads, still light, but these are NA numbers:

9.66 @ 131-- 346ci-- TSP -- 2865#-- Hyd-- PRC 227 Heads