Fast 383

iTrader: (2)

Okay so i'm starting from the beginning again. The canvas is blank and I need some suggestions on which way to go with my car.

I just picked up a 1987 buick Turbo T rolling chassis for cheap. Its white with maroon interior and the car is a mint 50,000 mile car minus paint. Needless to say it will be a great foundation for my 3.8 Turbo motor that i'm building. I have always wanted a Turbo regal and this will be a great street car for the family to cash in on throughout the Summer.


Anyway, now my Camaro is rolling again. I have some time to think about what's gonna go in it. The car has an 8 point cage and a 9 inch with 3.50 gears. It's set up for a T-350 and the shifter pattern is foward. I have a T-350 ready to build with all the goodies. So whatever I build should fit with those items. The car weighs about 3300 with driver.

The motor has to run on pump fuel and be able to take a 45 minute ride to the track.


I really want a mild pump gas Big block Chevy (468-496) or am considering going LS because of the streetability and all the good luck I see you guys have. Plus I think you can pull one complete ready to drop in for cheap.



What would you guys do???

xpndbl3

iTrader: (5)

I may be biased but a carbed gen 3 motor

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

X3....LOL

daverr

iTrader: (1)

no replacement for displacement go pump gas bbc. 1000hp drive everywhere pump gas bbc are very common today.

gtpro700

I dont know about streetable 1000hp BBC on pump gas...Maybe like the 800 range on pump gas but being NA 1000HP might be a stretch.

zraffz

Go big! You can build a 496 with cast heads and have an easy 500-550 horse or you can invest some in aftermarket heads for a few grand and have a 9-10 second street car.

383firebird

As much as I love my BBC, in a third gen I would go LSX. I have a .030 454 with AFR 305 heads and a fairly mild solid roller in my 3850 lb 77 firebird. I have alot of suspension work and tuning work to do yet, but I have gotten it to 10.7 so far. I expect 10.4's once I get it all worked out. It is very streetable, I would drive it anywhere. As a matter of fact I do not own a trailor and drive 40 miles one way to the local track + i use it as my DD in the summer. I also run a th350 with a generic 3500 converter.

brandoz28

iTrader: (1)

5.3 with a turbo!

RWB____s

LSX engine with a nice hyd roller cam, aftermarket heads, fuel injection of course and a bottle for giggles. everyday driver with some punch to it.

1BADRZ28

iTrader: (2)

I'd do an aluminum LS2 stroker if I was in your shoes. Power with light weight. The BBC is very durable if you want to exceed that 8 point but. The pricing is pretty much the same no matter what engine you build. My sbc was going to cost the same as a bbc to build so I chose the BBC because of how durable the piece is. A nice 427w would open some eyes when you pop the hood.

Fast 383

iTrader: (2)

I don't know. Something has me spooked about the Ls motor. Like i'll never be able to get it to run right. Maybe it's just the coil pack thing? who knows. a carbed one sounds cool. Maybe build it to the specs of my old 383?

I'm leaning towards a 468 budget build thats mild and makes a ton of torque. It will work with the 3.50 gears and run cool for the street. I only have to make 480-500Hp to be in the 10's. A little nitrous will make use of the cage. It could also be a great foundation to rebuild it bigger and badder in a few years when I'm ready for a full race car.

I'm gonna keep my eye on the classifieds and see if the big block hookers show up.

Future plans have always been procharged Big block so this could be a good start to that

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

BBC adds weight, LSX will drop another 100 lbs... I'd try LSX with EFI for sure since you are starting from scratch. leave the turbo buick motor in the buick.

LSx may be abit more money in the end but depends.... you can find a good bottom end aluminum motor for good price and then you just need mild ported heads/cam/tune to get back in the 10's

Shagwell

If LS motor, then 6.0 turbo. There are a few guys down here running solid single digit times in street driven 4th gens with basically stock 6.0's(arp rod bolts and a cam), flipped truck manifolds, and a decent turbo. - Two of which are also donig so on mild TH350's.

If BBC, then go at least 496 for what you want. With the availability of good budget freindly crankshafts, there's no reason not to go 4.250 stroke even with a stock block. - The little 496 we had in the camaro was just a GM 2-bolt block, 4340 Ohio crank, 6.385 rods(+.250), off-the-shelf SRP pistons, a fairly big solid roller, some old "big brodie" 345's, and a as-cast big brodie single plane(4500). Car went low 6's on nuts with a monsterous nitrous cam, and went 5.3's on the jug - I never made a full 1/4 hit on the spray but left once with a 225hp shot, clicked the spray off at the 1/8(5.7x pass), and ran on out on nuts to a 8.71.

That motor is currently in the little mustang sitting almost 500lbs lighter, and I'm probably going to hit it with a second kit for a race next weekend; should see solid 4's.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Not a bad suggestion since there arent many long tube swap headers available for a good price if you wanted to stay all motor or nitrous. If you had to fab your own, might as well fab a turbo setup..its only abit more pipe and with the right turbo deal, you could end up with a lower cost setup that hauls the mail.

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

i have a set of those hooker swap headers...they're kinda beat up, and will need some attention, but could be fixed. i wouldn't use them for a race car though...maybe a mild street car, but not a race car. atleast two primaries and the collector will need to be modded/fixed/replaced on one of the headers. i bought them for $125 off ebay a few years ago and never got around to fixing them.

xpndbl3

iTrader: (5)

Those swap headers are too small for anything other than a super mild BBC anyways. They would make nice ls headers if you swapped the flanges, that's about it.

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

Why couldnt you get it to run right? Easier than any SBC or BBC ever will be with a carb on it, set the timing on a lap top and forget it, timing retard, advance, 2 step rev limiter all built into the 300$ box, all that cost 800+ on a SBC or BBC. Then they are a dime a dozen out here if you want to run junk yard engine like i do. There are 5.3 bone yard engines going 9s all stock with ARP bolts that some dont even need with a singe turbo and little to no cam, if you are not going past 7000, you probably dont need them.


I was going BBC, but in the end, it was just too expensive and hard to find decent heads that didnt have cracks and what not. Not to mention, the headers selection sucked. Watching 468 engines trap 105 all motor at the 1/8th mile and then a LS engine trap the same with not much to it made me also shy away from them, it just cost me way too much to go the BBC route, and i am glad i abandon all hope.

Now, if you have cash for that high dollar heads and what not, then no problem, i cannot swing it.

Shagwell

You'd be suprised at how little I have an any of my aluminum heads, even my fully worked Pro-1's. - $1k will buy a damn nice set of complete BBC heads with good valves and big triple springs, you just have to wait a little for the deals.

With the nitrous cam/converter i barely trap 105 on motor, but it's still low 6's.

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

Yea, around 1K or less scores LS heads that flow over 300 with the cathedral ports, much less the L92s flow 330 for 600$ or so.

I just cannot find a junk yard big block that can take what the LS1/3/2/6 LQ4/9 can. Springs, cam and pushrods, 500+ HP and 7000 RPM. Less weight, highly available.


Once again, if money is not an issue, then all that doesnt mater.

daverr

iTrader: (1)

http://www.ultrastreet.net/engines/632_bigdawg_bc.asp

xpndbl3

iTrader: (5)

"only" 632 cubes to make that huh...? 21k to buy it as well....yup definitely a mild budget combo.

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

Yea, that engine has been around. I would rather buy a 510 ci LSX crate motor if the sky is the limit.

Fast 383

iTrader: (2)

I knew i would hear some imaginations run wild, lol. If sky was the limit I would make a call to Proline or J&E and order up a recepie for a high 4 seconed 1/8 mile ride to take out the top competetors in X275 in 2011! Muhahahah!!!

Lets get back to earth. I will be building on a budget. Because now I have to bring my T-type back to life and make something out of my Camaro at the same time. $$$$$$!!!!

I'm not afraid of the LS but I feel like wiring it all up is going to be more time consuming than I feel like dealing with. Almost like I am looking for simplicity here. Plus I feel like I did the small block thing. I think it's time to get rid of the squeakey mouse.

I'm probably gonna go for the BBC, 468 short block. I'll peice it together over the months and pick at it. Hopefully it run okay and produce a 10 seconed slips.


My buddy has a Dart 434 fresh from the builder on the floor complete to carb. Wants
10k for it. IT's an 18* with 750HP 15.1 CR. Bad ***!!!! Just thought about that.

xpndbl3

iTrader: (5)

ls wiring for a msd 6010 box to control the coils


run a power, ground and tach wire to the box


plug in 7 or so connectors all around the motor using a few stock sensors.


Start the engine....that's it

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

dude, you will love how easy an carbed ls truly is....there are less wires then a gen I motor

daverr

iTrader: (1)

I wonder how well a 510 ci bbc would do against the 510 ci LSX motor if the sky is the limit?????

xpndbl3

iTrader: (5)

Would boil down to head flow numbers mainly. Unless the 510bbc could have that much larger bore than the lsx engine as well. Although some ls7 heads are north of 400cfm now at huge valve lifts, not current on what bbc heads are flowing for the same bore sizes.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

And there isnt that many on a TPI based electronic gen I motor

daverr

iTrader: (1)

I did not know they would bother to flow bbc heads on LSX bore sizes??
Would this argument be same like my car makes more hp/liter than yours???

xpndbl3

iTrader: (5)

what's the typical bore size of a 510ci bbc against the bore size of a similar lsx block? Thats what my statement was asking and cross referencing that to whatever head flow for your comment.

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

Wiring for a carbed LS with the 6010/6012:

Positive, ground, tach, 2 for coils, crank and cam sensor. Two step,N2O timing retard and MAP are optional. Someone needs to let him drive a carbed LS swap to give him an idea of what he would be looking forward to.

You say budget, here is my thread on a general 5.3 swap with 3 options:

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/ltx-...t-ls-swap.html

Wish i went LS sooner!!!

Shagwell

Difference there is you're talking an engine that can make 500-maybe 600 HP na, and I'm talking an engine that will make north of 800 na and better than 500ftlbs.

The only thing that beats cubic inches is cubic dollars. - And if you get boost I get boost, so let's not start that discussion.

Shagwell

There are two simple/comon ways to make approx 510ci with a bbc, I believe either trumps the LS in bore size.

What I would consider the most comon way is a 4" stroke with a 4.500 bore(502 block + .030) = 509ci.

The next comon would be a 4.250 stroke with a 4.375 bore(454 block +.125) = 511ci.

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

You are talking big dollars when you are talking cubes, i am talking out the junk yard with a few added components. The larger cubes LS engines go head to head till the 500 ci range is passed, the LS7s are doing nasty, and i will argue that a LS will be better than a big block any day from the aspect of weight saving as long as cubes are the same. Otherwise, 600 or so cubes, the big boy will take the W. This is just my opinion.

Here is a 440 LSX with twins, 1500 HP with the meth injection on pump fuel, car is supposed to be ready for 2000 HP on the race fuel for the Texas mile and some revenge from last year when we were at TX2K10 last year and he got beat by a Lambo, should be interesting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ICCs5iW4lw&feature=player_embedded

daverr

iTrader: (1)

If LSx go head to head with bbc engines than why dont we see 500ci LSx engine in NHRA prostock?? fits the the displacement rules.


An LSX block weighs almost as much as a Big M block.

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

The difference is availability of parts i am sure, big blocks are so far ahead in the aftermarket it is unreal, dont know if the LSx platform will catch up, but there is damn good shiit out there for them. This is my guess, so i could be wrong. NHRA stuff is probably on its own level, but i dont know enough about it to really make a accurate comment.

Dont know the weight difference, but a LSx setup is probably a lighter rotating assembly as well.

amng04

********

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

Some of the LS engines shining:

Texas Speed & Performance 9.66 @ 131mph (Stock Bottom End LS1, NA)

This guy has gone 9s, all motor, stock 6.o junk yard engine, stock heads just muilled with a cam and carb conversion:

http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/conver...ard-6-0-a.html

There are several with stock long blocks in the 9s with cam and bolt ons.


Damn big blocks LOVE the dope WAYYYY more though.

amng04

[quote=ZONES89RS;4789784]Some of the LS engines shining:

Texas Speed & Performance 9.66 @ 131mph (Stock Bottom End LS1, NA)

This guy has gone 9s, all motor, stock 6.o junk yard engine, stock heads just muilled with a cam and carb conversion:

http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/conver...ard-6-0-a.html

There are several with stock long blocks in the 9s with cam and bolt ons.


Damn big blocks LOVE the dope WAYYYY more though.[/quote

ZONES89RS, what does your cammed 6.0 run?

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

Have gone 7.5 in the 1/8th at 95, that was slipping the clutch since it was bogging on a real launch. So, 7.3 should be here the next friday i am off, i am hoping for a 1.5 60 foot. Then, i need to see what happens with the front sway bar off as well. My car is running lean to, so i am also going to hope for that extra tenth and pick up some more MPH. Some stock ported LS6 heads will be on later this year to try and seal the deal on 7.0s or faster.

xpndbl3

iTrader: (5)

^^^^ race car!

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

LOL, please, your car is so fast you wont tell anyone the times Mr 9 second N/A beast.

xpndbl3

iTrader: (5)

14.2 @92mph

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

Not bad for a 1/2 mile pass, you forgot the 1 in your MPH(192).

White'89

iTrader: (8)

http://www.facebook.com/#!/album.php?aid=201700&id=147282994113

This is a 427 LSX with L92 heads and an F1 procharger. Estimations are a bit under 1200HP. The only down side is its a 14k short block. Hopefully it will be done soon, I go look at it from time to time and gawk.

And all under the stock hood. :O

Shagwell

I have less than $6k in my 496 from carb to oil pan(including the plate) and it runs mid-low 5's in a 3000lb car, even with the nitrous cam and converter is still manages low 6's NA.

Combo 2 - Roughly $15-$20k in the 477 blown combo from hat to oil pan. The current base-line tune-up is 2k-2500hp.


Show me and LSanything that can do either even semi-reliably for that $. - I suggested what I would do for a nice street friendly LS combo and if I were starting from scratch that's the way I'd go, and I've yet to own an LS engine myself. CI is still king, and if you're going all aftermarket you can just as easily go 632ci as 496ci in a BBC, the cost is almost equal for both.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

My buddy fabbed his own turbo kit on a junkyard 4.8 truck motor. Stock bottome end minus rod bolts. He had mild ported 317 truck heads, 230 deg cam, and LS6 intake I think it was. Way less than 6K into that and with just rod bolts on the bottom end, it made just over 700whp on 23psi turning 7500 rpm. Truck was 4500 lbs or so and it trapped mid 120's on a lower boost pass. Never got to fully run it but that power in a thirdgen would have gone mid lower 9's easily. In a light race car, maybe high 8s.

They can make some power thats for sure. It was reliable too but turning 7500 plus seemed to me to be on the ragged edge.

Doing it all over again on my build, I'd love to try a twin turbo big block, but the engine bay is tight as it is with the sbc, i dont think my twin setup would work with a wide big block but the power would be insane.

My friends 496bbc with twin 70mm's made 809whp on like 10 psi running rich and probably 8 deg of timing lower than he could have put into that motor. Power per PSI on that setup is intense and it only peaks at 6000 rpm.

Shagwell

My little junk only makes 400ish rwhp on a dyno-jet....traps 128-130 in the 1/8 though. I can damn near run 8's on nuts. The only 1/4 passes I've made were leaving on a 200 shot and having it click off at 5 seconds, car went 8.51 and that was with a full 1/2 second slower 1/8 ET.

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

Dynos are for tuning purposes, they dont mean shiit with a loose converter and what not. RACECAR!