daverr

iTrader: (1)

The AFR LSx 215 cc cylinderhead was tested on a 4.060" bore which only made 314 cfm at .600" lift. PRC are cylinderheads u would find at Walmart , while most LS owners would pick the AFR over the PRC. Your $1400 Walmart cylinderheads would not be as good as the AFR LSx or the AFR sbc heads.You get what u paid for.

If u want to stick with stock parts its your choice after all LSx engine are only $700 in the junkyards. Just make sure your Engine hoist is well maintained. Could u even find "pink" rods today beside the Antique store??
If your going to build an engine any engine build it right the first time, cutting corners will not get you anywhere.

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

Well, for those like myself on a budget, these junk yard motors are gold to me and my budget, and can spin some RPM without question, i dont see too many stocker SBC motors living to 7000 RPM on stock rod bolts, or stock rods usually.

I have doen allot with the SBC in my time and hurt some feelings, but the ease of the LS engine for me just took over, i do not have a distributor any more, the timing retard and 2 step limiter are built into my MSD ox, that alone makes the swap such a great thing for me, a good running 5.7 is hard to come by for 500$ these days, not to mention throwing a cam and springs in and making 400 RWHP without breaking a sweat.

Like i said, i can go on and this debate will never die, so try not to make my thread into a GEN I VS GEN III debate.

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

negative, listed right on their website that it was tested on a 3.900" bore.

i'll put my "Walmart" heads up against any genI n/a motor built on the same budget i built mine on.

daverr

iTrader: (1)

read carefully http://www.airflowresearch.com/index.php?cPath=76_113

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

ah, i got a little confused going back and forth on the website. the 225's flow 315cfm at .600" lift on a 3.900" test bore.

but still doesn't validate your point. the sbc 220 heads were still tested on a bore larger than the lsx heads, and at greater lift than the lsx heads. still not comparing the same type of test.

find any gen I sbc cylinder head that flows 316cfm at .600 lift on a 3.900" bore and is less than $1400(new, not used), and i'll shut up about all of this. have you ever seen the PRC heads in person? the cnc port job is a work of art. they might be "Walmart" heads in your book, but the attention to detail is impressive, and results speak for themselves. there are many PRC ls6 heads in 370-408ci combo's putting down 500+rwhp.

fwiw, the connecting rod comment was only an FYI, my combo has forged h-beam rods. i got too many hours and hard earned cash for a stock connecting rod to fail. but i'm one for slight overkill. my 305 had forged rods in it, lol.

xpndbl3

iTrader: (5)

luckily mine only has stock rods but arp rod bolts, for what little power we're talking about they'll be fine.

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

Yea, think i am going to set my rev limiter at 6700 RPM, maybe 6800, they are stock in mine, but there are stockers out there spinning over 7000, so it is not an issue to me.

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

i HIGHLY recommend arp rod bolts. it's not that expensive, and they can be re-used. (a few times...)

xpndbl3

iTrader: (5)

I shift 6900 and have my rev limiter at 7200 FYI

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

I dont have a set right now, but if i find some any time soon, i might swap them out, the one at a time swap. Works fine on these fracture caps.

DIGGLER

iTrader: (1)

fwiw, my old patriot 5.3 cnc ported heads looked like a work of art also. however, the car was down ~40-50rwhp from where it should have been with a GOOD ported head. and they quoted some pretty impressive flow numbers on their website.

my ported LT1 heads have a 200cc port using the factory casting, and flow290-295ish. stock shortblock, and makes 425ish rwhp thru a th400/9" and 28" slicks. 23x/24x hydro roller cam.

rod bolts- it was suggested that not many sbc's are out there turning 7k+ with factory rod bolts. you do realize that most anyone turning an LS motor that high on a regular basis will NOT have the factory rod bolts, right?

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

Dont know how much power you were making with the patriots, but my buddy was doing 414 to the ground with crap exhaust on his car, that is not bad for the cam he was using.

LT1 heads are poorly cast from the factory and have allot of room to grow, and the quality of aluminum is sub par to the LSx, but alas, they are not SBC.

You realize that most of the LS1s out there ARE actually stuffing a cam, springs and pushrods and turning 7K on STOCK rod bolts, i dont know how many LS guys you know, but i know more.

xpndbl3

iTrader: (5)

if you hop on ls1tech those patriot heads are all about flow bench numbers and perform poorly at the track. No one has ever posted a good ET running those heads, seems AI and PRC are the two that are actually backing up their ported heads with good ET numbers.

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

Their big block heads on the other hand...MAN they do work, for the price, THOSE are hard to beat!

DIGGLER

iTrader: (1)

this is common knowlege now, but not back when i got the heads several years ago. i made 376rwhp and went 7.44 in the 1/8 at full weight. m6 trans, patriot heads, 230/236 cam. i now have a set of unported 243's in the car with a 233/239 cam. makes more power.

DIGGLER

iTrader: (1)

i am making around 410 to the ground with my unported 243 heads and a stock dual/dual exhaust.


the LT1 heads ported flow the same as a ported 241 head. where do you get the quality of the aluminum is sub-par in the LT1 head?

im not exactly a newb. ive had an LS1 car for 10 years now. it is commonplace for the LS1 guys to put rod bolts in. i do not understand how you have never heard of this?
fwiw, my LS1 car's rev limiter is at 7200 and i shift 6800-7000. stock rod bolts.

HA HA HA HA HA!!!!!!!!

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

i guess since he's a moderator on ls1tech.com, zone thinks he knows more people.

for the most part i applaude you zone, but that last comment was asinine.

Shagwell

I'm loosing track of whose argueing with whom in here, lol. The sbc/bbc/ls arguement will end just about as soon as the gm/ford/mopar arguement did....oh yeah, it didn't.

I will again say, stock vs stock there is no sbc/bbc combo that can match the LS platform motors. Never was and never will be at this point. Performance, realiability, drivability, and economy as a package the LS motors have it hands down. Now that they are readily available from junkyards they are also quickly becoming a better base platform. As many have stated, decently ported stock heads, a cam, and intake motor can put down north of 400rwhp, and lay down track numbers to back it up. No stock long block sbc/bbc can touch that on it's best day, none-the-less reliably and still get great gas mileage cruising back and forth to work with the a/c blowin.

Again, I say that once you hit the level of needing to upgrade bottom end pieces and go to aftermarket heads, the cost differences as well as the power differences become very negligible and it largely depends on what you already have, as well as what you know how/want to work with. - At that level, "there is no replacement for displacement".

I also again offer to any of you racing flow benches and/or dynos to come get you some. - Head design older than dirt, 401rwhp, and run's 6.2x/9.9x on motor with an overly tight nitrous converter @ over 3000lbs.

DIGGLER

iTrader: (1)

i outran the stock shortblock LS1 nitrous record with my stock shortblock LT1. next time out im looking for 8.90's-9.20's. ~3050lbs. 425rwhp n/a, 200-250shot.

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

fwiw, i ran 12.3x's with 243rwhp

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

The older LT1 heads are not the same quality control of the newer LS1 heads, my machine shops even rag on the LT1 heads, yea they flow with port work, but the stock castings are so damn rough.

It is common place for the rod bolts...if they want to, most dont, that is just how it happens for most because they usually dont see stock rod bolt failure.

Dont know whats so funny either.


Unfortunately, i am not counting all the faces i do not know, i am speaking from the fact that all i have for friends are guys driving 4th gens, 5th gens, 3rd gens with LS1 swaps, C5s, C6s, CTS, GTOs, G8s and all the what not. Not using the "I am a mod on tech and everyone is my friend" assumption.


Oh yea, i used to be the odd man out whooping H/C LS1s with a 383, i have just found what i see as a better way to build my budget minded hotrod, thats all

DIGGLER

iTrader: (1)

i was laughing because you said you knew more people with LS1's than me. thats possible..... but means absolutely nothing.
truth be known, between me and my friends, we have had several LT1/LS1 records.

Shagwell

LTjuans can be very suprising when done right. I've got a budy whose stock short-block LT is laying over 400 to the tire na. Heads were done by TEA, cam spec'd by them as well, intake was port matched by him. It's got a little giggle gas available that puts it over 460rwhp, but the stock rear 10-bolt is already a grenade waiting to happen on motor.

I personally have yet to own a LS motor, but have 3 friends who have chunked bottom ends due to rod bolt failures, and another who is pushing the 8 second mark with boost on stock crank/rods with arp bolts in his daily driver.

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

My beef with the LT1 s that it is a PITA to work on, aftermarket limitations and driving threw that right splash of water destroys the 300$ optispark, and the water pump can do the same thing on its way out. The LT1 to me is a complicated small block, if they left the distributor in the old location, i would like them allot more. At least you can convert them to carb and traditional dist, but then there are no really good intakes made just for them.

THis is why it means something to me:

Shagwell

crapti-spark definitely sucks. The new conversion to run the LS crank trigger/ecu/wiring is pretty cool though. - The w/p is not really any more problematic than any other, and has the same replacement options.

DIGGLER

iTrader: (1)

the LT1 is basically a sbc with different heads and intake.
aftermarket rotating assembly will be much cheaper for it, and sbc heads can be modified to fit. (if you wanted) intake manifold flows great- no real gains going to a victor jr single plane.
i have never personally had a problem with an opti. i drove many thousands of miles in the rain and shifting nearly 7k without issue. had a waterpump dump on one, too and it never died. people blame the opti for everything under the sun.
the LT1 is no more complicated than a sbc with fuel injection.
you can easily run a sbc intake on an LT1 with slight modification, which is what im doing.

main thing is that if you hang out over on LS1tech and follow all the lemmings around, you will spout all the usual jibberish they always say about the LT1/sbc stuff. the LS stuff is a superior design, yes.... but its not as big of a gap as what those guys believe.

xpndbl3

iTrader: (5)

I just want the diggler tuneup on my ls motor to go nearly as fast as you do

Got to respect the guys going faster than you

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

LOL, i knoww hat you mean, i blame the opti because of experience, had a LT1 and it let me down, all the stuff i had to do just didnt pay off for me, so i have up and would rather have the older SBC or the new LS, not the middle child. They can be great engines and they came with better rods than any other SBC ever really did, but it is weird when i see the older LT1s with regular rods, sucks when you are looking for the powdered pieces.

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

Oh yea, on my original topic of the swap, i got my manual steering box today, know it is not biggie but it made me happy to get it, was 75$ and feels like it is in great shape.

Need to get a tool to remove the damn idler arm as my 3 jaw was not trying to hear it, LOL.

daverr

iTrader: (1)

dont u mean pitman arm? because the idler arm needs just a pickle fork, if that.

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

Yea, thats what i meant, got the damn tool and DAAAAAMN that thing was on there, but it is not anymore, pics of said part:

This was after some cleaning and what not



This is with some rust proof gloss, same i did my firewall with.

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

Idle doesnt mean jack squat, but if it runs anything like she idles, MAN this thing is going to hurt some feelings.

xpndbl3

iTrader: (5)

wow I hope all that rubber line ran to the carb was just for fire up purposes......

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

LOL, it is, just used what i have laying around ya know?

DIGGLER

iTrader: (1)

ford blue engine block?

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

LOL, between peole calling it Ford blue and Pontiac blue i am just laughing at how much i am being asked that! LOL

It is GM blue.

Well, here it is, runs like a scalded dog but needs a better tune than the modules can offer, just need to get my serial port adapter. Needs a damn water pump too, the old *** one that came on the engine is weeping like a stuck pig. Still needs exhaust too and clean up the wiring.

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

Well, this thing pulls DAMN hard, considering there is allot left on the table since the rev limiter is only at 6000, this thing is going to shine at the track i think. Just need to get the carb and timing where it likes it. Then i will be making a trip to the 1/8th for some initial tuning. The step 2 built into the MSD is fun as hell and makes it sound like a monster ready to eat, i have it at 3000 to play around with, as you can guess, not much to hook in 1st and 2nd, 3rd will spin if i shift it the way i like to shift...LOL.

gtpro700

You should probably invest in some nice tires if you cant hook at all. All the power in the world isnt worth anything if you cant put it to the ground. Not trying to bash you but I see this too much a person builds a nasty motor and has either a stock rear end, shitty tires, or no suspension work done. Just makes more sense to me spending money on parts that will help your times out. Nice job on the swap though this isnt to bash just some advice so dont take it the wrong way. Good luck with the rest of the project.

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

Has a Moser 12 bolt rear with 4.30s, Spohn suspension and the playing is on radials, i have Nitto 555r for the street and the MT ET streets for the street and track. Im covered, so you didnt bash anything here

gtpro700

Thats cool man I didnt want to come off like I was bashing you. I guess it was a rant more at a lot of people lol I still would probably roll with the ET streets on the street and deal with the top end wiggle and wear that is associated with running them on the street but thats just me. I just would hate to lose a race because im spinning through the gears but wait I would never race on the street anyway lol

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

Yea, the Nittos will be WAY better, i might try to get them swapped out tomorrow(later today) just to get them ready for *** WHOOPIN TIME for many a people i have lined up on the hit list. Been a long time coming!

NemeSS-TyranT

iTrader: (1)

lolz! cant wait to see it put some smack down on some fools.

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

There is a list...lol.

xpndbl3

iTrader: (5)

how can i apply for that list? and can i get a few spots?

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

One must ne in the Houston area to be on said list, LOL.

Cracked some *** tonight, upped the rev limit to 6600 and it SCREAMS, loves the top end. A set of heads would make this car, but i pulled on my buddies 11.58 malibu, he jumped(gave him the move) me both times and on the top end i stopped him and started reeling him back in.

Someone said these like lower timing? I have it maxed at 36* but someone was saying that 30* or less, seriously? That would be crazy for me but this is not exactly a small block chevy GEN I.

Here is a little clip from a phone, skip to 45 secs to see something besides ground.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PdnM...layer_embedded

xpndbl3

iTrader: (5)

i started at 28 degrees total timing and went up 2 degrees at a time until I found what the motor likes. Carbed cars take more timing n/a than efi cars. Some end up 32-26, my buddy made max mph at the track with 40 degrees running E85 and high compression. On nitrous you REALLY have to back down the timing a bunch more if you're running it elevated n/a due to having a carb.

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

Well, i need to get to the track to tune it, see what the MPH looks like.

NemeSS-TyranT

iTrader: (1)

thats just the tip of the blade. wait till u get some worked 243's miled for higher compression. if u think it screams now.....