AlkyIROC

After considering my options for the last week, I've decided the best course of action will be to change the roll cage. One option I was considering was to buy a rolling chassis. An altered or even a tube chassis door car but that would mean giving up my third gen as a race car. There's some nice tube chassis Baretta's, Cobalt's and Cavaliers and even some nice lightweight tube chassis S-10's but all are out of my price range or on the wrong side of the country.

A week ago I went in to see if I could get an NHRA chassis certification. The welds were not consistent enough to pass the certification. I could grind out all the bad welds and redo them but many are now difficult to access.

I also don't like where I positioned a few of the bars. The A-pillar bars are the worst. I want where they attach to the halo bar to be more outward towards the door and out of my field of vision. Not that I see them when I'm going down the track anyway.

To pass an 8.50 certification, I also don't need as many tubes in the cage. I don't need the dash bar except that it's holding up the dash. I don't need the X bar in the doors which makes getting in and out difficult. I don't need the sill bar but in a unibody car, I will probably put it back in. The bars in the rear need to stay because they're part of the back half and need to support the frame rails.

I'm about to order a 10 point S&W kit from Spohn. If all goes well, it should be here before the end of the month. The old cage will be out by then and the car will be ready to have the new one installed when it arrives. I was considering getting the funny car cage addition but decided against it for now. If I ever run quick enough to need a 7.50 certification, I can put in the rest of the bars required at that time. Until then, it's just extra weight and even more difficult to get in and out of the car.

Although the regional tracks will open in early May, there usually isn't good traction until June. That gives me 4-6 weeks to get everything done and to refabricate a few things that were attached to the cage such as the window net, electronics panel, seat brace etc. Once the new cage is in, I can try again for a chassis certification however I have no idea how to get it done during the season. Our regional inspector doesn't live local. He's in the next province over.

With the S&W 10 point kit, are the A-pillar bars sort of Z shaped to go in front of the dash before going back under it or do they just have a single bend?

jg04222

when you outright order the s&w kit from spohn it will have the z shaped, in front of the dash type bars. I had changed my mind after i got my cage, and ordered the thru dash bars after the fact, directly from s&w. I think steve spohn can get it with the thru dash bars when you order it.

i know what you mean by "i dont like where i positioned a few of the bars." I just got my cage done and I wish I would have done some stuff differently...but, you live and you learn.

Shagwell

IIRC - aren't all S&W's kits moly? Just a thought, as if it is, it will need to all be TIG welded to pass cert. Another thing to consider would be do you think you can save your current main hoop? If so, get an 8 to 10 point conversion kit and maybe a little extra pipe to re-do some of the rear stuff. The main hoop is the most expensive piece, and the most expensive part of the freight as well.

From what I've seen they definitely have some of the nicest fitting cages. Thier scales must be a bit off though, as somehow thier moly 8 point saves more weight over MS than the MS cage weighs. - Kinda like a k-member that takes 150+ lbs off the front end.

If you're going to have the dash out(likely) you might think about going ahead and putting the strut pipes in as well. Personally I'd do that and re-x the doors, although it's not required. If things ever get out of hand it's nice to know you have more than you should need.

jg04222

no they sell kits in mild steel too...thats what i got. look at spohn's website-they sell either option.

AlkyIROC

Straight tubes can be purchased locally. All I really need is the main hoop, halo bar and A-pillar bars. I have no idea if just those parts can be purchased separately. I'm not even going to attempt to save my old prebent tubes. Too many tubes already welded to them that would need to be cut and ground off. You don't want to grind into the tube itself. I may save some of the straight sections to see if I can reuse them providing they're not too short.

I just fired off an Email to see if just the prebent bars can be purchased separately. That would greatly reduce the cost of truck freight shipping it to Canada.

MS is the most common kit. The extra cost of a CM cage doesn't justify the weight savings plus the fact that most people don't have access to a TIG machine while many have access to some sort of MIG.

My dash is just the top dash pad and a piece of aluminum for the front face to mount gauges and switches. I have some 3/8" brake tubing welded to the knee bar that runs under the dash to hold the dash up. If the new A-pillar bars go in front of the dash then the knee bar will have to be in front and I'll need to redesign how the dash is held up. A lot of the wiring under the dash runs along the knee bar.

AlkyIROC

No reply to my Email yet about being able to just purchase the prebent tubes. I wasn't expecting a reply until at least tomorrow.

I went and measured all the other straight tubes to get an idea on what I may need. Most of the tubes are just about or just under 5' long so it's easy to purchase 5' lengths and adjust accordingly.

1-5/8" x .134" tubing

Door bar - 2 x 5'
Sill bar since I'll probably put them back in - 2 x 5'
Rear braces - 2 x 5'
Rear x-bars to top of back half frame - Can salvage from old rear braces since they're about 3-1/2' each.

1-1/2 x .134" tubing

Cross brace behind seat - 1 x 5'
Diagonals under cross brace - Can salvage from old cross brace or dash bar. They're about 2-1/2' each.
Door X bar if I put them back in - 2 x 4' so just call it 2 x 5'
Dash/knee bar - 1 x 5'.

So total straight bars required to replace everything the way I currently have it and being able to reuse a few of the old pieces.
6 x 5' x 1-5/8" tubing or 30' of 1-5/8" x .134" tubing
4 x 5' x 1-1/2" tubing or 20' of 1-1/2" x .134" tubing

Shagwell

I'd think there would be a metal supplier up there somewhere where you can buy DOM sticks for decent $. DOM has a length variance of 17-22' due to the construction method, but .120 wall is legal when using DOM, thus a little weight savings plus .120 wall is a comon stocking wall thickness for most supply shops.

I use Alro metals down here, no sure if they have any locations up your way or not.

IHI

iTrader: (1)

Is Spohn giving you a better deal than going directly to Don?? Seems silly to use a middle man when you can contact S&W correct and they're always willing to work with the racers....just wondering is all.

AlkyIROC

Spohn does offer a very slight discount plus accepts alternate payments such as Paypal with the online purchase.

Received a reply today. Spohn just buys the kits then resells so you can't order just the prebent tubes from them. I decided to contact S&W with the same question about being able to just buy the prebent tubes. If I have to, I'll just have to buy a complete kit. If they'll work with the racers then it's possible I can buy just the prebent tubes.


You never know. Maybe if they can sell just the prebent tubes, it may be able to ship through Fedex instead of truck freight. I'm not expecting that but it would be nice. All those 5' straight tubes add a lot of weight.

Found out today that because so many people wanted a chassis certification this year, they may arrange a second date. No word yet on if it's going to happen. They need to find out how many people are interested first. I said that I may be ready by the end of the month which means the first weekend in June. I'm guessing they're going to do a date before then. Considering I haven't even ordered the kit yet, that will be pushing it. Shipping always seems to be around 10 business days.

IHI

iTrader: (1)

Just go find hookdaddy on DRR and contact him directly. Otherwise it's like going to the grocery store to buy the milk you can get directly through the farmer.

I dont think i'd get too excited, these cages dont take anytime at all to put in when they're pre bent, no reason you could'nt have you stuff cut out, new one fitted it and painted in 1 day....so by rights you've got plenty of time before the first tech session...cut your stuff out while waiting for freight, then take the few hours and install new one, paint and go race

AlkyIROC

Talked to George today at S&W. Prebent bars are ordered. There isn't a huge cost saving in ordering just the prebent bars however shipping weight will be reduced by about 70 pounds. That alone will probably save me about $200-$300 in shipping fees, taxes etc to get it across the border. Tubes will be sent via Fedex so that's a bonus. Having to go pick up truck freight is a pain.

They didn't have any tubes pre bent and they didn't have any completed third gen kits so he said they probably won't be bent and shipped for about a week. Add on about 7-10 days for shipping and that puts it into the last week of April.

I'm only guessing that we'll get a second chassis day on May 2. Since I'll be taking my car to work on a weekend to use the 220v MIG welder, it doesn't look like there will be any chance of getting it completed before May 2. I may be able to arrange access to the shop in the evenings after work. A few hours each night for a few days may be able to get it done in time for a chassis day.

I stopped off at the local metal supplier to see about the straight tubes. They didn't have any in .134" wall but had some in .120" wall. Since minimum wall thickness is .118, I really don't know if I want to trust the .120" wall. The tubes won't be bent so the thinner wall may be acceptable.

I contacted the regional chassis inspector to see if using .120" wall tubing as just straight tubes will normally pass a sonic test or not. If it will, I'll just buy the .120" wall straight tubes which will save a little more weight.

I'll have the old cage cut out by the end of this weekend. Welding in the new cage won't take that long but all the other work required will take longer. I need to remove most of the back half tin to access the rear bars and the main hoop where it's welded to the plates on the floor. I'll need to refabricate the window net attachments plus a bunch of other stuff I have attached to the cage such as the rear window supports, electrics control panel etc.

It could be a little hectic getting everything finished before the first race on May 9/10. Based on previous history, I doubt we'll be on track until end May or the racing weather may not be great until then. Over the years, our first race was always scheduled around mid May. In the early 2000's, 3 years in a row our first race of the season was snowed out!

Looking at my racing history from last year.
May 21 - T&T - Rained out, too cold.
May 28 - T&T - 4 passes
June 11 - T&T - Rained out
June 14 - T&T - Cool and heavy rain. Managed 1/8 mile passes late in the day due to track conditions and problems with the timing system
June 15 - First race. Weather wasn't much better so I stayed home.

That's not a very good start to an already short season. Anything better this year will be a major improvement.

AlkyIROC

Here's the reply I got back from our chassis inspector. I guess it means the .134" wall tubing is needed for a reason.

There's a really good installation sheet on the S&W web site explaining the bars in a full cage and what they accomplish. After reading that, I've decided to put all the bars back into place including the knee/dash bar and the X-brace. I'm probably going to modify the X-brace slightly by moving the X forward to make getting in and out easier. I'm also going to do the rear bars over the back half a little differently. They don't need to go all the way to the rear of the car. To the top of the shock mounts is enough. If I get time, I may also put the forward tubes through the firewall and weld them to the top of the strut tower.

S&W roll cage instructions
http://www.swracecars.com/Files/pdf/rollbarorcage.pdf

Shagwell

.120 wall DOM will pass spec, as DOM has a gauranteed tolerance due to the construction(drawn over mandrel). - I use .120 wall DOM for everything.

Keep the rear straight legs going to the back of the car, put the x-brace legs to the shock/spring mounts. - When you go to put a 'chute on it, you'll want more back there to tie to than just the body, and it just plain looks better.

AlkyIROC

Hmm. Never thought about that when pulling the chute. Good point.

Since I'm not after huge weight savings, the extra cost of the DOM tubing doesn't justify the minor weight saving. If I wanted a really lightweight car, I'd go with a full tube chassis.

AlkyIROC

Most of the cage is now out. Getting the tin out was harder than cutting the cage out and I still need to remove the tin at the rear to access the frame rails for what's left of the rear tubes. The battery box is bolted to the frame and sitting on tin. Lots of the tin was sealed with a chalking making it difficult to remove and access the pop rivets. I took out the windshield and rear window to make it easier to access everything and to make welding in the new cage easier. It least I didn't have to take out the wheel tubs.

One A-pillar bar is still in place and the dash bar is still in place because it's still holding up the dash. Once I fabricate some new mounts to hold the dash up, I'll cut the remaining cage pieces out.

I weighed all the cage pieces as I cut them out. So far I'm up to 130 pounds. I'm going to guess the remaining pieces will be less than 20 pounds so lets say the full cage is going to be 150 pounds for now.

Still a lot of prep work removing the remaining tin at the rear and grinding down all the remaining tube pieces that are welded to the plates on the floor and on the rear frame rails. I'll then need to refabricate new tin and probably a new electrical control panel to mount the electrics under the passenger side dash instead of on the cage.

I didn't like the long tubes going all the way to the rear. 5' of tubing with no support along the length. I'm going to do away with the rear X bars in favor of a different idea.

The rear tubes will still run to the rear. Where the X bars were welded to the top of the frame rails above the axle, I'll have vertical supports going up from the frame rails to the long rear tubes. A cross tube will go across the rear tubes at the vertical supports. Diagonal tubes will run from the sides of the main hoop over to where the cross tube is. This will triangulate everything and add more support for the long rear tubes without a rear X brace.

IHI

iTrader: (1)

Sawzall is your friend, which i'm sure you knew

Best thing for seperating those panels, either your air cheisel with the wide scraper blade/chisel blade, or a demo hammer like we use in construction with same style blade...they'll walk right through those rivets and caulk like it's not even there.

AlkyIROC

I went through at least 8 Sawzall blades today. I had to remove most of the tin just to give the saw access to cut the tubes. The "boxes" I made at the lower front of the wheel tubs had to be removed just so I could cut the main hoop out. Those are going to be redesigned when I put tin back in. The rivets were easy. They're all aluminum and the ones that were easy access got a drillbit through them. The others were chiseled off. It's a good thing the panels over the frame rails were put on in sections. From the driveshaft tunnel to the rear is 4 sections. Including one of those sections, there's 3 across the rear. I'm definitely not going to use as many rivets putting new tin back in. It's just not required. I will have to pick up a bunch more tubes of caulking to seal everything up again.

I wish I had a big enough compressor and all the air tools that I have at work. Even my little air cutoff wheel would have made the job easier. A cutting disk on a 4" electric grinder just isn't the same.

With all the sharp metal edges in the car, I only cut myself once today.

AlkyIROC

Last of the old cage is finally out. Total weight, 146 pounds. That's like carrying a fat chick around in the car!

I think I'll start a new thread in the fabrication forum showing the work progress as I reconfigure things and install the new cage over the next few weeks. I noticed a cool way to isolate the rear right where the back window stops. That just means I don't have to put the battery back in the box. Not that the Taylor box was very big or heavy. The aluminum I'll use to make a firewall will weigh more that the Taylor box. Maybe if I block off the rear, I'll install 2 batteries and ditch the alternator. I want to install the belt driven vaccum pump but the alternator is proving to be a problem without totally redesigning a different mount system for it. The current battery I use is only 650 CCA but has 180 minutes reserve and it's heavy. It's out of a highway truck.

IHI

iTrader: (1)

What about just going 16V and losing the alternator

Shagwell

I'm in awe of myself; all the shots that I have on photobucket now, and not one of the rear pipe work in the car. - I can get some and post them if you want.

I have the rear legs going back to within 1' of the trunk wall/tail light panel. They each have a small kicker that runs vertical to right near the coil-over mounting point, plus the triangulated bars that run on top the wheel tubs from the main-hoop to each of the rear bars, and a cross between them at the same point(the kicker legs running down are tied in at this same point). I still have an X tieing from the upper corners of the main hoop and down to the rear rails a little forward of the coil over mounts though. W/o the X, there's really nothing to directly combat torque twist/flex. That's the same reason I added the diagonal from near my right shoulder down to the passengers' pillar pipe near the floor.

Shagwell

...another thing. Must be a canadian thing on the DOM costs. I pay around 1.3 times the cost of HREW for DOM, which makes it not overly expensive, and Alro keeps it on the shelf in .120 wall. Free next-day delivery.

Here's the weight chart for DOM. HREW is similiar, but has a +/- variance due to the +/- wall thickness variance:
http://www.alro.com/DATACatalog/007%...ipe.pdf#page=9

AlkyIROC

I'm impressed. Fedex made a delivery today. I ordered the cage parts from S&W last Thursday before the Easter weekend. I wasn't expecting it to be even shipped until this Friday and I already have it in my hands. They air freighted the tubes with 2-3 day delivery time. I need to send S&W a nice thank you note for being so quick.

I'm not even ready to install it yet but that gives me about 2-1/2 more weeks of production time than I expected. 3-1/3 weeks until the first race (weather permitting).

Cost wasn't ridicules. I paid the Visa bill online this morning. $362.77 CAD and the Fedex fees on delivery for taxes was an additional $25.23. That was just for the main hoop, halo bar and Z bent A-pillar bars. All the straight tubing that I ordered locally will arrive on Friday. No idea on the cost but I'm expecting to pay at least $300-$400 for all that tubing. I'm getting more tubing than what would have been included in the 10 point kit.

I also priced out a 4x8 sheet of .032" aluminum today to redo all the tin. That's only $100.

Shagwell

news?

AlkyIROC

Wiring is completed except for remounting the battery. The electrics panel is now under the dash and out of the way. The big mass of wires is behind the panel so they're not as visible now. I think next winter the car gets rewired.

New floor plates for the main hoop are welded to the crossmember. I couldn't do that when I did the back half because the cage was already in place. Main hoop is welded in using my 110v MIG but I need to redo one section of weld to make it look better. Halo bar is tack welded in to check the position.

The straight tubes I ordered locally still haven't arrived but I'm still not ready for them yet. They're expected to arrive later this week. I hope so because the car is going into work this weekend to use the 220V MIG to properly weld everything in. I called a couple of places and nobody carries 1-5/8 x .134" tubing. Everyone says it's an odd size. They all have .120" wall but that won't pass a sonic test.

The positioning of the halo bar worked out great. I now have enough room that I can mount a switch panel on it without whacking my head on the panel. More rewiring if I mount a switch panel.

Next step is to fit the A-pillar bars. I got the Z bent bars that go in front of the dash. Looking at how they install, if I had a full dash to clear, the bottom part wouldn't sit on the floor but would be up on the front kick panel. If I swap the bars from side to side, I can reposition the tube to sit on the floor, still clear the dash pad and make it easier to install the door bars.

Anyone got pics of S&W A-pillar bars (full cage) that clear the dash and not go through it? I just want to get some ideas on positioning. I think swapping them from side to side will be better suited for what I'm doing.

I'll go out shortly and take a couple of pictures with the bars mocked up to show how they each fit on the same side so you can see what I'm talking about.

AlkyIROC

OK, took some pictures. They're not sharp, I'm holding the tube up with one hand and taking the picture with the other so I can only get one angle.

First picture. This is roughly the way it it should be installed. It runs reasonable close to the a-pillar and goes down to the floor at an angle. I can move the bottom all the way forward to the kick panel but is would change the angle of the vertical part.



Second picture. This is the passenger side bar on the driver's side. This would actually fit better. It's not in a perfect position. I could rotate the upper part so that it's closer to the a-pillar but you can see the bottom section is more vertical allowing door bars, X bar and through the firewall tubes to attach at right angles. This picture looks worse than it really is. Yesterday when I was playing around with positioning the bars while sitting in the seat, neither bar interfered with vision or access through the door.



I think I may just install them on their proper sides and deal with the complex angles for the fishmouth cuts of the other tubes. With the tube in the proper position, a knee bar runs above the steering shaft and just below the toggle switches on the dash. This could be a problem. With the bars swapped, the knee bar can run behind the dash.

Here's the new electrical panel.

Shagwell

I'd stick with the way they're meant to be and possibly still notch the dash some. The tighter you can keep them to the stock pillar, the better it will look and the more room you have in the car. - I have been threatening to cut the back-side out of the stock pillars when I get to work on my radial project and sink the pipes into them.

AlkyIROC

New design idea. I cut off the corner of the dash pad to tuck the A-pillar bar as close to the A-pillar as I could get it. Flipping it over so the long side is at the top, the bottom would go quite high on the firewall. It would sit higher than where the old original plates from my first 6 point roll bar are still sitting. I'm checking to see if adding a vertical piece from the plate currently welded to the floor and joining to the A-pillar bar would be a legal installation. If so then it would make installing the door, sill and X bar a lot easier. The passenger side could be a bit trickier because of how the firewall is shaped and I would probably have to redesign the electric panel again.

If the tube was longer, I could cut a hole through the firewall and weld it right to the inner fender however trying to weld a 6x6 plate way down there would be very difficult.

AlkyIROC

It started snowing around mid afternoon today. The rest of the week doesn't look good. I hope I'll still be able to load the car and take it into work this weekend. The straight tubing I ordered should be in tomorrow or Friday.

OK, slight modification changes for the A-pillar bar. This is something that's allowed and will make installation a little bit easier. In reality, what I originally wanted to do will still work except I would need to weld more plates to the floor. The A-pillar bar does not have to be a one piece unit from halo to floor. Here's the alternate option.

Typically the dash bar is made of 1-1/2 x .134" tubing. It will need to be upgraded to 1-5/8". I can use the current bent A-pillar bars and run them as close to the A-pillar as possible. They then bend downward before bending forward. Somewhere in that section pointing downward, cut them off and fishmouth the ends. Across the cuts will be the 1-5/8" dash bar. Under the dash bar will be a short section of 1-5/8" tubing going straight down to the floor where there are currently plates.

So technically, the A-pillar bar is a short piece running from the halo bar down to the dash bar. Another piece joins the dash bar to the floor. The open ends of the dash bar need to be capped off. 1/8" thick metal is enough.

That will mean I can run the A-pillar bars up tight to the A-pillars. Hopefully there will be enough room under the dash to run a dash bar and be able to weld all the way around it. The bottom sections can then be positioned where they'll fit the best. If you look at the design in it's simplest form, from the halo bar, a straight tube runs to the dash bar. Under the dash bar is another straight tube going to the floor. That solves bending an A-pillar bar in a lot of complex angles to get a perfect fit.

The only difficulty I can see is getting a complete weld around the tube with the dash in place. Access could be very limited. Doing it this way will also make doing the passenger side a lot easier as I wouldn't have to modify the electrics panel.

Shagwell

I'm with you on you current idea. I have seen several chassis kits with the two piece a-pillar pipes. Most kits run the lower portion at a back angle, thus adding to the strength of the weld joint. - Not sure if you could do that w/o lessening the available entry space though. You could also utilize the bent bars elsewhere if needed and just use two sections of straight pipe; one coming down the pillar from the halo, and one coming up from the floor. By not having the bend, you could probably tuck the dash pipe further foward and then back angle the lower section back to you current plates. Then(worst case scenario) if the pillar ever recieved an impact it would be acting as a forward bend that had to be reversed to colapse, thus very strong.

Whenever you eventually add the two front strut pipes, I'd reccomend two small gussets on either side forming a trianlge between the strut pipe and lower section of the pillar, as well as the strut pipe and upper section of the pillar. It's nice to span the load as much as possible, so that if somethign were to happen not all of the force is directed straight on the welds.

I will be adding these same type gussets from my x bars, triangulating where it meets the pillar.

Shagwell

- also, this is not helping me refrain from starting on my radial car. I honestly enjoy cage work.

AlkyIROC

I was already thinking about that with the bottom pieces that I'll probably cut off but not sure where yet. They won't be long enough to flip them around and have them pointing rearward and reach the floor. I also picked up some 3/4 x .125 tubing to use as triangulation gussets. You normally see them joining the A-pillar bar to the halo and I may add those. As per specifications, the longest part of the tube can't be any shorter than 4" so a little 2" long triangulation tube isn't acceptable but then I'm also not building a 25.5 cage.

Although I have a bunch, I don't really like those little triangle gussets you can buy. At least not for a cage. I used some on my rear anti roll bar mounts and they make good brackets to mount things. To be mounted properly on a cage to strengthen a joint, they shouldn't be inside the angle between the 2 tubes but on top of the tubes so that the gusset doesn't act like a shear cutting into the tube.

I already have 1-1/2" tubing running down from the top of the strut towers to the front of the frame rails. I mount the oil accumulator on one of them. I still haven't run a tube from the cage to the other side of the strut tower. As per the rules, this only needs to be a 1-1/2" tube. I've seen so many third gens with a compound bent 1-5/8" tube running from the cage or firewall, over the strut tower and down to the front of the frame rails. Unless you've done a front half or changed the factory strut towers to some sort of tubular coil over system, the larger tubing isn't required. We have a tendency to over engineer some things because it looks better.

I can see it being a long weekend of welding and fabricating to get this done the way I want it. I started off many years ago with a basic 6 point roll bar. That changed to a 12 point cage but I never did put the forward tubes in to complete the 12 points. All the other required bars were installed. Although the cage worked, I just didn't like where I positioned some of the tubes so from experience, this new cage will be installed where I know the tubes will be better positioned.

The ultimate would be to just build a tube chassis car. Easy way to knock 800-1000 pounds off the car. For what's involved to build and outfit the chassis, it would be a lot easier to just buy a rolling chassis that someone else has already built. Racingjunk has lots of stuff available. Bad thing for me is that most of what's available it is east of the Mississippi. 6000+ km round trip to buy a car isn't much of a saving.

AlkyIROC

I've cut up most of the old cage to reuse a few of the sections. I did a rough mock up with some 24" lengths of tubing to see how they would work. I'm going to have to remove the dash pad for welding access but I can very easily use straight pieces to make the A-pillar bar. Good thing the windshield is out. With no windshield and the T-tops out, I have lots of access for welding.

I can't see any use for the bent A-pillar bar yet. Maybe I can fabricate some sort of funny car cage hoop from it. I can't even use it to go through the firewall effectively.

Shagwell: I may end up installing vertical tubes close to the tranny tunnel like you did. My dash bar will be fairly close to the firewall, just under the dash pad.

Shagwell

I fully agree on the over-engineering. I've caught myself doing it plenty of times. The diagonal that I have my shifter mounted on is not listed any any spec, but I liked the idea of having a cross brace through the ****-pit area to help eliminate twist. It in turn made for a handy place to mount the shifter, some of the switches, the EGT meter, and the wideband. - I'll take a little over-engineering any day if I feel it makes the car safer. Besides, over is considerably better then the alternative.

If you put those legs in by the firewall, as long as they're remotely close they do make for a great place to firmly mount a mid-plate to, and they also make sure the motor isn't coming into your foot well in the event of a frontal crash. - If the firewall is forward some, you can always weld angle(on edge) to the vertical pipes to step forward and set against the firewall for the mid-plate, or just make the bolt tubes that much longer(I have 3/8 ID tubing welded through the center of the up-rights for the bolts to run through and attach to the mid plate).

You can put those pipes in at any angle you want as well, as they're not a requirement. I just like the fact that they bridge the center of the lower rails into the cage, instead of them being basically un-supported from behind the seat all the way to the front of the motor. This is exceptionally true in a stock framerail or single frame rail chassis.



If you want I can fire off some pics this evening to possibly give you some ideas. I love looking at other cars/chassis. You see little things in almost every car that vary from your own approach which often helps with the end fitment/look.

AlkyIROC

Racingjunk is good for that. I've looked at a lot of chassis and cage setup just by looking at the cars for sale.

AlkyIROC

I got the car home and in the garage just as the rain/sleet/snow started. Car still got wet.

Lots of pictures! As soon as I unload them from the camera and resize them for the forum, I'll post in the fabrication forum as a new thread since there's so much I need to change with the new cage.

All the steel I ordered hasn't arrived yet so me and my welder still spent the whole day putting in most of the cage from pieces I already had. I got a funny feeling I didn't order enough 1-5/8" tubing to complete the cage the way I want but will still have enough to finish it enough to pass an inspection. Perhaps a few of the optional pices can be made with .120" wall tubing which I can easily get. I spent the day cutting and notching all the pieces while the welder welded everything in. Fantastic welding job. Much better than I could have done and far superior to the 110V welder. A couple of areas were tight but we managed to get good welds all the way around the tubes including the main hoop which if fairly tight to the rocker sills. The A-pillar and dash bar came out better than I expected. It's so tucked high up under the dash and close to the firewall that I may have to make an aluminum dash to cover it. The factory dash pad isn't going to fit.

Pieces that are now in

Main hoop
Halo bar
Main hoop crossbar behind seat
Main hoop diagonal tubes to rear frame rails
Dash bar
Upper and lower A-pillar bars
3/4" Tubing gussets on the front corners of the A-pillar to halo bar.

Pieces to finish

Sill bar
Door bar
Door X bar
Rear bars
Rear X-bars
Tubing gussets on both sides of the halo bar where it attaches to the main hoop.
Forward tubes through the firewall

Pieces wishing to add if I have enough material but are not required. All needs to be 1-5/8"

Roof diagonal from front drivers corner to rear passenger corner of halo bar.
Diagonal braces from the sides of the main hoop to the rear bars over the wheel tubs and a cross piece joining between the rear bars.
The outside section of the funny car cage made from a section of the old bent halo or main hoop or from the new A-pillar bars. There may even be a way to make the inner section but I doubt it. Just some ideas.

As reported way back up the thread, the old cage was around 146 pounds. So far all the pieces installed is up to 72 pounds and I need to put at least 40' more tubing in the car.

AlkyIROC

Pictures are now in the fabrication forum. I guess it's time to close this thread as any discussion will now be related to installing the new cage and anything else related to it.

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/fabr...roll-cage.html