stage20

iTrader: (3)

by 2 stage i hope you mean 2x250 equalling 500 worth of nitrous to make your even 1000hp on those parts.
you expecting 750 on motor or did i miss something?

xpndbl3

iTrader: (5)

i'm sure he thinks it'll make 750 on nuts because of some magazine article he read once. The real world is far different indeed. Plus the cost of the drivetrain to support such mods. It sure adds up quick doesn't it?

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

Well, it is cheaper for me to build 496 cubes than a 408 LSx motor, not to mention the cubes are there. It will take me a bit, so i am building the 468 cheap to play with till the 496 can come together. I have seen builds in mags with stock ovals ported making over 700 but it was on 11.5 to 1 and i dont know how they did not have detonation with pump gas, it has been a while and i cannot remember if it was 93 octane.

I have seen several builds with my own eyes of the big block nature, and over 700 HP is where they go on 93 octane with decent parts, and that is only spinning to 6400 RPM or so.



So, yes, over 700 HP on pump gas, and a 250-300 addition of dope. The patriot heads do well and with extra port work it is going to be even better. Not to mention the aluminum heads will get me back to what a iron small block chevy weighs. I will be spraying the bottle with a separate fuel cell with 116 in it.

As i was asking(meant to), have you figgured out your MPG yet?

stage20

iTrader: (3)

with the right camshaft selection, you can run 12:1 with pup gas. just takes the right person knowing his stuff to get the cam lined up for you.
im going to have to check into the patriot heads and make my own conclusion on hp levels.
sunoco 116 IS NOT a nitrous fuel. dont use it. its for n/a applications.
you are better off suited to using c16. its more stable anway, and will be more forgiving on your tune up.

i dont have exact milage on the motor, as i havent payed attention much to it yet. im still working on this new carb at cruise. idle and wide open is great, but its a lil fat upon part throttle, and cruise. never meesed with the bleeds in a carb, but im going to have to learn them to make it more efficient.

my 6.0 got 13mpg. that was figuring the milage and track time.
the 408 is prolly no better than 10 right now.
all said and done, i dont think it will get much better than 12, but thats not what i built the car for.
im sure you are going to tell me there are a4 efi guys getting 14-18, and that 6 spd guys pull mid 20's, so go ahead.....

xpndbl3

iTrader: (5)

my big stalled ls motor is getting 25s too for mpg

actually it gets 14mpg, getting towed behind my big block suburban.

stage20

iTrader: (3)

i call bullshit on that one!
haha.
what model is it?
buddy of mine just got a motorhome(28-30ft) to pull his 28ft enclosed to the track. mostly for out of town events, but he has a daughter that races as well, so its nice to have it around at the track.
its got a 454 th400 and who knows what gear.
he put a gear vendors in it and it gets 12mpg pulling 60 down the highway.
thats inane milage. i cant remember what rpm he cruises at, ill have to hit him up.
it was low.
said the 454 chugged right along. plenty of power without downshifting.

xpndbl3

iTrader: (5)

05 suburban 3/4 ton
8.1L vortec with 4L80E overdrive trans
4.10 gear
18' open trailer

it'll do 14mpg at 55-60 if i push it to 65-70 then i'm down to 12.3ish for towing. i don't mind chugging along at the speed limit, plus one ticket in IL in this county is $135 in court costs PLUS the ticket fees. So I'll pass on speeding around here. When towing a 24' enclosed trailer with some tools it was around bottom 12s for mileage but I wasn't easy on the gas.

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

C16 is what i will use then, i have never heard anyone get into it like that, thanks for a heads up, i just see the boosted guys use the hell out of it. I was wanting to go with 11.5 since that is what i see tons of NA big blocks use, i will see what my machine shop/engine builder sais, probably will end up with a custom grind rather than something i see off the shelf like the one i stated. My 95 Z with a T56 and a carbed 357 is pulling 15 MPG but has got 18 on long hauls. I am sure my BBC will get 12 MPG if i am lucky. It is screwed up how the EFI guys with LSx get the econemy they do with H/C/I.

Shagwell

A dyno is great for tuning because you get repeatable testing parameters. That said, with it still pig rich at a dyno day, my 468 with 12.5:1 compression, a .725ish lift solid roller, and big-brodix 345 heads just made a whopping 401rwhp. Ya'll best look-out for the furry! - short shifted on a soft shake-down pass with the old motor that was around 150 less flywheel hp and went 6.61 in the 1/8. Good thing we don't race dynos......5500 stall + th400 + 33" tall slicks = dyno queens crying as to what their motors would do.

On another note I somehow have two split cylinder walls in this motor, the machine work was just done and it has yet to even see the track. This car currently has some bad juju around it, it's eating motors for no reason. I'm about to rattle can it flat black.

Zone - a 496 w/ patriot heads will not likely see 700rwhp. 700 flywheel possibly, but unless you put a useless drivetrain it, the power loss to the rear-wheels will be pretty decent.

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

OH HELL NO ****, i was talking a bit over 700 at the flywheel, no the back. Not gonna happen on pump gas. i will be using a T56 trans and a 12 bolt moser rear, so i plan on losing 80ish HP to the ground(that is what my buddy loses with the same drive line). The patriot head will be ported but i might opt for some brodix to not have to pay for porting(i can port myself, but i want flow data).

stage20

iTrader: (3)

that is some excellent milage. i know there are folks out there getting 9 empty!

my 6.0 deos pretty decent, but i like to pull it at 75, seems to be the sweet spot.
i get 11-12 with an open trailer. my enclosed trailer for work i only get 10.5-11 around town.

stage20

iTrader: (3)

if at any way possible, stay away from the moser 12 bolt!
the torque arm is not thru bolted like the factory, or even the moser 9 inch.
you use short lil bolts top and bottom, and they are notorious for backing out.
people have broken torque arms and killed driveshafts when the loose bolts finally back out or get sheered off during launches.
if you are set on it, make sure you put a couple of tack welds on each of the bolts so they stay put.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

wow never heard of that about the moser. is the strange 12 bolt like that?

xpndbl3

iTrader: (5)

9" over the 12 bolt regardless

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

Yea. i am aware, bought it for 1500 in great shape, Spohn already told me to make frequent checks on the bolts, i am not worried as long as i do as i am supposed to. Could surely use a piece of steel to weld the bolts together with a tack to prevent welding to the Tq arm. Thanks for the idea.

Well, i have seen the moser go 7s before breaking the ring and pinion due to tire shake, seen a 9 inch bust axles on even slower cars, the 12 bolt uses less power to the wheels, and if i was worried about it...i would just get a Dana 60 and skip the ford stuff

stage20

iTrader: (3)

anything can go 7's once.
the problem with the moser 12 bolt, or any 12 bolt is that the load on the torque arm distributes its load onto the case, tweaking it. this throws the gear setup off overtime and can cause gear whine, which most 9" have anyway, but thats just how it goes sometimes.

the dana 60 is not as strong as the 9", but you will never break it at your power level. the 9" is the lowest pinion available, with the most pinion teeth contacting the ring gear at any given time over a 12 bolt or 60.

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

It was the fastest LSx car in the world at one time, so it did it way more than once. But the Dana 60 has a larger ring and pinion making the teeth larger and harder to break. Then there is the GM 14 bolt...jk...never seen that done before!

Shagwell

The patriot heads are pretty decent. Although the castings are created over seas, all the finishing work is done in(iirc) alabama. - there's a good thread on them over on yellowbullet.

Although a 9" is definitely stronger than a 12-bolt, it's definitely not need for his app. Although it's not a torque arm unit, I'm cutting 1.2 60's on my 12-bolt coming off the t-brake. When I hit it with the giggle gas we'll see if a teen breaks it. One way or the other it's coming out before the blower motor goes in; it will be replaced with a Strange S60.

F* running a 9". Part for part it is not any stronger than a dana, although it can be built a little bit lighter. A dana has a 10" ring gear, while the 9" has the lower off-set pinion, thus making the strengths kind of a wash, but the 9" eats more power. I've witness plenty of guys going consistent 1.0x 60fts on danas, and they don't have to make up the power loss.

NemeSS-TyranT

iTrader: (1)

im running a dana.
but if ever time to upgrade, i will look nowhere else but 9"

Shagwell

It's only an "upgrade" if it has better/bigger internals, which can be purchased for the dna just as well as the 9".


back on topic - get anything done on the tuning yet stage20?

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

Hey stage, you ever thought of running a 4L80 trans for overdrive? Or do you really not use it enough to worry? I love my T56 and double OD is for supra killing, but the automatic is what i would have any day for a track car.


I do need to see what my 12 bolt has for components, it is supposed to have c clip elims and all the works.

stage20

iTrader: (3)

nah, not yet. work and some family is in town. i hope to get it all squared away friday and maybe hit the track friday night. well see how it goes.

stage20

iTrader: (3)

supra killing. LOL.
ive considered it, but my headers are tight with a th350. alsmot too tight. i dont know the pan rail or linkage measurements off a 4l80, but i might have to have another set of headers built to make it work.
i would more than likely do a powerglide and a gear vendors over a 4l80 for track consistancy and weight purposes.
its nice to have overdrive. if i ever go on long trips, i just throw it on the trailer.

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

Ok, i drive the hell out of the 89 RS, Houston is big, so when i go from my place to a south side meet or the REAL track in my area of the world, i am looking at a 35-50 mile drive, it is a plus, not to mention the T56 only weighs about 125 LBS.

I forgot about the width of the 4l80, but man, the extra weight is worth it for a car that is driven as much as mine. The 4L80s are pricey though.

how much gas you want to hit it with total? I want to do a multi stage kit, 150 and 150 with the 496, but the 468 will only get the 150, the sniper kit is tapped after that, but i paid 150$ for the kit brand new, so i am not going to bitch.

Anyone want to read a funny argument i am having on LS1tech right now?



http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/small-...9-305-sbc.html

I should just ban the guy since he lives in my area.

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

the only problem i see with your arguments is that you use Personal Opinion, Hearsay, and Magazine Propaganda to support your arguments, and then these guys who are way smarter than you run circles around you and use proven facts to support their points, and you still don't understand what they're saying....it kinda makes you look like a chump...(and i don't mean that in a mean, way, so don't take it that way)

there's alot of theory in the smaller bore keeping detonation down when boosted, that's why the little mod motors make such good power, those guys are right...

stage20

iTrader: (3)

35-50 mile drive, LOL.
my closet track is 60 miles and i drive it there all the time.
mobile is prolly an hour or more away, and its just under 100 miles.
ill cruise that at 4000rpms all day.
dont know how hard the cam is on valve springs, but you can only expect a season or tow out of them anyway.
when i meant long trips, i was talking 150-200 miles one way.

the motor will hold whatever nitrous. i have a complete standalone. i personally prolly wont ever put more than a 200 on it.
its going to get a 150-175 and hopefully run 5's 1/8 mile.
it would be nice if it would go some 5.6-70's 1/8 mile so i can go to the 1/4 and run some 8's on the bottle. that would be my goal with this setup.

Shagwell

Nitrous works very well, but I like my power adders to refill themselves. So far, the blower has not once needed a refill.

If I can get something to stay together in the car right now I've got it pilled for a 225 shot, instant on WOT, 7AL3 pulling 8 degrees when it hits. If that doesn't kill the 12-bolt I've got the 300 pills and the second retard stage ready. - If I can't leave with at least 1k hp, I'll never get it to leave with the blower.

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

Your car is full interior? Cage?



I am not trying to sound like i know everything, but from my experience i say what i think, as is he. But he is not taking in anything i say. I do not ever see a smaller motor make as much as a larger one with all the same parts(degree heads, induction ect). Ci X RPM weather boosted or not is what i always see making more with larger cubes, on the dyno and track. Weight is the one thing i see holding back, like a 400 SBC should be faster than a 396 BBC in the same car generally, but the heads on the BC will make it up, but that is just what i have learned over the years.

xpndbl3

iTrader: (5)

cubes matter but it's cylinder head flow that makes power. These ls based motors' heads flow far more than aftermarket offerings for regular 23 degree stuff and outflow some bbc castings. Just the nature of the valve angle. I wish you luck on this killer bbc but there are TONS of sbc and ls motors that are running circles around mild bbc at the track. I've upset a lot of big block guys with my small blocks over the years.

stage20

iTrader: (3)

buddy larry runs a basic 13:1 468 rectangle port motor. 700 solid roller
5500 stall, 410 gear. 3100 pounds. its been a 6.47 on motor in cool weather on a 29.5x10.5 mt slick.

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

Exactly, i would rather have a built small block that is radical than a mild big block. What is the point of a BBC that is on the street if you are looking for power? Wasting fuel maybe. If you arent going to use the cubes to move the extra weight...build a smal block.

My next DD third gen i get( i am searching for some that might trade me for my 95 Z plush give me some cash), i want to do a carbed 6.0 and keep the AC, not hard or impossible, but a PITA to get a good bracket setup for it from what i hear.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I'd go big block with forced induction to make an easy 1000hp or even more. Larger journal cranks and such can handle that power abit better than small block stuff.

Thats the best way to justify big block when most small blocks can get you where you want to go. But then again, there are many big hp lsx stuff out there. The lsx blocks are pretty strong too

IHI

iTrader: (1)

You gotta stop...put down the hot rod, put down the car craft, what your doing to yourself is the same crap i see all these wal-mart customers who call me for a bid do, they watch HGTV and get all these tainted ideas about things when the reailty is completely opposite...these magazines are fantastic toilet reading materail and then when your done, flush whatever you just read down the drain with the rest of the s..t!! Purely entertainment, not meant for real life, and many things they talk about are so far from the truth it's crazy....hence not picking up these gay subscriptions in over 8 years...no point since like many on here, i live and deal in REALITY.

If you think 700 flywheel hp on pump gas is unattainable with you "496BBC" you be one goofy dude!!!! I'm "almost" there with my 23* sbc with alot less cubic inch.

All your talking about ET/mphs is so jaded i cant stand it...but i'm happy i took the time to read through this since i am now much happier after a soemwhat crudy day. FWIW, I have a cousin exactly like you, knows everything when flapping his gums, but is 100% clueless when it comes time to deal with reality...same with a few of the bums that always happen on my junk that "my dad's car is 800hp, my uncles car runs 7's, my brothers car makes 900hp at the tire".....and you either never see them, or if they do show up the car is dirt azzed slow and the barage of excuses start running amuck.

Like so many have said, you can get to the 10.99 realitively cheap/easily and then after that it starts getting VERY expensive very quickly since you hit a wall. We were just talking about this on the job today with the other's that drag race, the one guys said, I'm running 10.80's now, and i would like to run 10.30/10.40 and the craziest part, we're talking about .4 of a SECOND, and financially i'm looking at $3K to get that .4 of a second. Which is about right once you hit that paltuea when other factors other than just power plays into the mix since aerodynamics factor in too....and your malibu, while not bad, is still a brick with a big bug catcher up front.

Good luck, but i think your in for a serious reality check my friend based on what i've read thus far

stage20

iTrader: (3)

i thought you were all about big blocks and no 6.0 now after seeing how i wasted my money?????

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

I understand, but i have built motors and of course am still learning, and with my MPH and what not, i can usually get an estimation of power pretty close. This is my first big block to build for power, the others were stockish for other people. I know what my SBC can do, but i have friends that are helping me with the first one and also getting info here and there(this site included).


If you read again, i did not say i would not get 700 FWHP, i said to the tires.

"If you think 700 flywheel hp on pump gas is unattainable with you "496BBC" you be one goofy dude!!!! I'm "almost" there with my 23* sbc with alot less cubic inch."


Sorry you might have read what you want, long day?

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

Nope, not for a night and weekend warrior, just a daily driver.

I might be full of ****, might do a SBC with a 396 stroker kit. Since i would have to buy another expensive *** trans...uggg.

Shagwell

If you have a usable trans/converter/rear axle/tire package for the car/motor, you will not see anywhere near that number out of a pump gas BBC. My 468 is 12.5:1 JE pistons, Brodix 345cc track heads, .725ish lift solid roller, BME aluminum rods, Big Brodix single dominator intake with a 1050 dominator, et, etc, etc; although it was on a rich tune-up guess, with 110 in the tank and 36 degrees lead it made.....get ready for this... 401rwhp. But gues what, let go of the t-brake at the track, hit that 5500 converter hard, the 33x10.5's do their crap right to a 1.30 or better 60' and it knocks out a low 6.0x in the 1/8, with the same rough tune-up in a 3000# car.

I highly doubt I left 300rwhp on the table soley by not adding .250" of stroke.

Does that mean I couldn't make 700? No. I just see no point of a stock converter and a set of 245/45/17's on the car.

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

I understand, you know every dyno is different, but that big *** converter and everything will eat up **** tons of power.

I will be using a manual trans and a way smaller tire of course.

What did the TQ numbers look like?

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

it's doesn't eat up power, it eat's up numbers...there's a BIG difference. and HP numbers don't win drag races...it's how you put it to the ground.

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

Wel, it takes more to power the heavier setups, just another reason i love a manual trans.

xpndbl3

iTrader: (5)

i'd take a stall'd 3 speed trans over a 6 speed any day and I bet I'll be more consistent AND faster. Good luck launching that 6 speed like I can launch my car, you can't beat modern converter technology.

brandoz28

iTrader: (1)

definitely, not to mention waaaay easier on the rest of the drivetrain

stage20

iTrader: (3)

talking about me wasting money on my motor.... that 396 is going to be a DOG unless you put a wild cam and some 18 deg heads on it.
a stock 6.0 with a cam will be cheaper and run CIRCLES around a 396 unless its high compression, solid roller.
ive seen it all. for a small block, you cant beat the advanced cylinder head design of an ls motor.
nitrous is a different story, so is boost.

lsx or a big block. ill never own another old school small block.

NemeSS-TyranT

iTrader: (1)

i agree, i will have no excuses when it comes down to racing, typical street racer bs. i missed gear, traction control was on, spun out becuase i didnt launch right, etc.
th350 is machine, a man will never beat a machine.
now ive gone hi 10's with a ls1/t56 at the track, shifting hard. and not always, i dont care who u are, youre gonna miss a shift or shift too early/late.
but i had like 1k$ clutch setup and 12bolt. and all the supporting susp. mods, etc.
with auto all i need to tune rpm band is vacuum modulator and b&m calibrator. and that th350 will never miss a shift.

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

Well, if i was building a race car, yes, but a car that will be driven on the street 95% of the time, **** a 3 speed. I have a stall it to what i want to thing going for me, you can launch a manual just as a auto, a manual is just a trans brake/adjustable stall without all the extras. From how i understand it, the right manual will be faster than an auto in the same car. Lighter trans, eats less power to the ground.


For YOU it might be cheaper, once again, i run a manual trans, it is easier to keep the T5 or bolt in a LT1 T56 for cheaper than finding a LS T56. For 3500-4000 you can build a decent 396 SBC with good heads, 600 HP if it is correct.

My 1000$ 383 went 7.4 at 92 MPH, and my buddies 6.0 did 7.3 at 96 with 2000$. Not bad and they are close, but i was using old *** tech heads from 1970, and he was using the truck heads i ported out. Pretty close, i just dont want to use a different trans, and i have headers that work with the SBC, LSx headers for a 3rd gen are too much for me.

stage20

iTrader: (3)

from how you understand it, not what YOU KNOW. a manual transmission is nothing like having a transbrake. an auto with a transbrake is not as violent as a clutch dump, and a clutch cant keep the suspension loaded like an auto can. an auto WILL ALWAYS be faster in the same car, given a certain hp level.
of course a stock converter automatic, vs a stick shift, the stick shift wins.
auto with converter always beats out the stick. lighter trans, east more power to the ground. that means nothing except if you are out roll racing, which doesnt apply in my situation.




you can make any sbc tranny work with the ls1, you just need the right adapter parts.
the ls1 swap headers are expensive, but many people have done a flange swap on a set of small block headers and been sucessful.
for someone that doesnt understand the basics of racing, i cant believe you ported a set of heads. flow #'s.... dyno, track times?

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

Well, my understanding of things and yous are just different, people in person do not agree and we have some pretty good conversations.

I do admit, i look at things from the street stand point, so we are speaking of different worlds.

The 6.0 heads i did flowed 228 stock and after the port and polish work i did they went 268, but this was also being rushed to get them done for the valve job and what not. They are on the malibu that went 7.3 at 96 mph. Torqer V2 cam, edelbrock carb intake, vic jr.


And...NO, i have not found a adapter to use the goofy style LT1 clutch setup on a LSx.

stage20

iTrader: (3)

you have any flow #'s on the victor jr?

ZONES89RS

iTrader: (2)

He didnt get flow numbers any after i ported the intake, it ended up cracking around the intake ports anyways, so when he sent it back and got the new on he was in a hurry to get the intake back on so it would run, it is his daily driver.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

IF you go LS1, you have to get the LS1 t56. Dont try to adapt the LT1 T56.