Fast 383

iTrader: (2)

Just wondering what needs to be done to squeeze a BBC into a 82-92. Do you need tubular K-member and all that or is a pair of headers gonna do it?
It's not something I plan on doing soon but I want to start building a 468 for the future and would like to know if my Chassis is gonna be okay.

DIGGLER

iTrader: (1)

why do you want a big block?

AlkyIROC

There's a sticky in the engine swap forum

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/engi...swap-info.html

PROSTOCK5031

iTrader: (1)

ED QUAY (in pottstown PA)makes everything you need and sells it in Kit form, has mounts and Headers.Or will do the work for you. He also built my car with a Pontiac motor! He is a great guy and does even better work, Tell him John Bailey Sent ya!

Fast 383

iTrader: (2)

Good question.

I am real familar with the potential of todays small blocks. I am also very happy with my mild 383 that will go 10's on motor and 9's on spray.
I'm also waiting on a 421 18 degree small block to be delivered to my work for a friends S-10. It makes around 750 HP and will go mid - high 9's on motor and 8's on nitrous. So i'm definetly aware of what they can do.

However, I am a motor junkie. I like all the different combo's, all the internal parts and enjoy the process of researching the combo and then seeing how it performs. My small block is already done and together and has exceeded my goals. I will get a few seasons out of it running high 9's but I have an itch that needs to be scratched. I am researching a 468 build that will go high 9's on motor, through pump gas and remain streetable. But it will be conservitive
enough to go 8.50's on the nitrous.

I got a chance to go to go to a pinks all out and 90% of the cars there were BBC cars. Something about the sound, power and pure grunt of the BBC has me wanting to get rid of the squeeky mouse.

What do you guys think?

AlkyIROC

It's easier to make power with a BBC. Stock factory BBC heads are better than some of the better SBC heads so feeding a small BBC is easier and cheaper than feeding a big SBC. Using aftermarket aluminum heads decreases weight and produces even more power.

Using a power adder, you can make a SBC fast but you also decrease the life expectancy of the engine trying to make that much power. Typically any engine should be able at least 1 HP per CID. Simply increasing the displacement is the easiest way to make HP.

Lets say you have an all out NA race engine making 2 HP per CID. A very hopped up 434 will make 686 HP while a 540 can produce 1080 with a whole lot more torque as well. Add a power adder and the numbers jump even more. Nowadays even the 540's can't survive with the 572, 632 and bigger engines.

Building a 1000hp SBC using power adders is possible but it costs a lot of money to maintain such an engine.

To build a NA 468 to be streetable, pump gas and run high 9's, you'll need a very light car.

DIGGLER

iTrader: (1)

i guess my main question was how fast you were planning to run. your reasons for running a bbc sound good to me.
they way i look at it, its actually not too difficult to go 8's with a sbc. and they will live quite awhile at that level.

christian'sZ

im in the same boat. my problem is i have the block (427/454); and a p600b procharger nib. how many cubes @rpm will it feed? and header primary tube id?

Fast 383

iTrader: (2)

I think it can be done. I'm talking, Aluminum headed 468, borderline pump gas compression, single pro systems 4500 carb, custom specd cam and riding in a 3400 lbs car on 10 inch tire through a t-350 and 8 inch conv. I just got done reading an article on one that made over 700 HP @ 7000 and almost 600 TQ with a nitrous cam and conservitive carb tune and timing. It was all set up for nitorus and it made 1200 on an NX two stage.

DIGGLER

iTrader: (1)

are you running an LSx motor in your car now? a buddy of mine is selling his topend setup off of his car. was a 402" iron block lsx that made right around 1000 on 2 kits.

ross

I am with you on the big block. I want to put together a 565ci pump gas motor.I want the car to run 9.50s or better on motor. Shouldnt be to hard with all the good parts out these days.

1LOMARO

Correct me if I'm wrong but...... I don't think twisting a BBC at 7,000 is a very good ideal. I've played on 8th mile tracks and the most I dared to turn was 6400 at most! JMO

christian'sZ

NASCAR boys spun them 7000 to 7500 for 500 miles back in the 70's. Just takes GOOD stuff maid from unobtaineum and $$$$$.

Fast 383

iTrader: (2)

Where I work (Transmission Specialties), I deal with hundreds of BBC combinations a week from 396's to 632's and even bigger. I would say over 75% of them spin to at least 6800-7000. Some to 7800. All depends on the internals, cam ranges and drivtrain parts. I also see about 10-15 BBC dyno sheets a week and they are mostly making peak HP at 6800-7000 and peak TQ at about 5400-5600.

The 468 build I'm observing at the moment spun to 7000 and made peak power. It probably was still making power to 7200.

Stephen

iTrader: (12)

I have an article I transcribed from Hot Rod magazine, including part #s & such, to make a BBC swap a relatively simple process.

I only have it in HTML format, which makes copy & pasting it difficult here, doe to formatting & layout.

I did PM Stephen 87 IROC about getting it to him, to share here on TGO again.

If anybody wants it directly, shoot me an email to SDC78605@Austin.rr.com & I will email it back to you.

AlkyIROC

I shift my 540 at 7400. How high you can spin it depends on the quality of the internal parts. I wouldn't want to spin factory components over 6500 but there isn't a single factory component in or on my engine.

car_fixer

hmm, wasnt there an era in prostock (nhra) where they had to use factory components in their engines, i bet they werent turning under 7k lol. not that im saying just any ol gm parts will work, but with proper prep on rods and such its probably cheeper to go aftermarket. I just got my converter back from Transmission Specialties too, quick turn around! but anyway, the sound of a big cu. in. big block is awesome, and the swap isnt all that bad, with some foresight you can really make it alot better, depending on if you want to run for fun or in a class. Some classes wont allow frame rail alterations, but if you are going to do it for fun moving the pass frame rail will allow tucking the exhaust better for ground clearance (pump gas makes me think you plan on street driving) and if you build the car to be legal at those speeds a cage is needed, so a little extra work under the car will go a long way. depending on which route the headers take, there are two places to gain some clearance. either are pretty easy to modify.

Fast 383

iTrader: (2)

[QUOTE=car_fixer;4013065] I just got my converter back from Transmission Specialties too, quick turn around! but anyway,
QUOTE]

Thanks. We try to get converters out really quick.


Is there a pair of headers that are reccomended for this swap? I only say pump gas because I dont have a ton of money to be putting into race gas all the time. I dont mind spending it when racing or spraying. The car I have now has 11.1 comp and runs on pump gas all day. When i spray or go to the track I put 112 in it. But I do get some street time out of it pretty often.

Also, I have a 10 point cage to go in.

Shagwell

BBC's are a little more detonation prone than sbc's since you typically need a dome piston to get higher compression. When we got our 10.5 car it was just 25.5 back-half car and still had the stock k-member, a-arms, springs, etc. It was mounted on motor plates, so not sure about that part. I've still got the headers that it had on it, but I'm currently thinking of using them on my bbc drag radial build. They're fit inside the frame rails and aren't to horrendous to work around(very suprising since they fit around the stock k-member). 2-1/8 primary, 4" collectors, custom-built by Lemons. They do require cutting the stock subframe under the floor though.

As for the rpm debate, the blower motor that was in the '68(same short block I just trashed in the '86) was a +.100 427(445ci) with a GM 4340 crank. We turned it 9600, and the blower was 36% overdriven, made right around 1500hp. That was with a regular street/competition 871(not stripped, but helix rotors). - This same short block back when it was +.060 turned over 10k with two dominators and a 5-speed.

1LOMARO

I stand corrected...... was just always told to never twist one that hard!!!! Thats what happens when you are misinformed!!!!

Shagwell

^ it just requires the right parts. We're running a short stroke motor and turning the r's up because we need the hp, but need to get rid of some torque. - It's a bit hard on valve springs though.

I actually just talked with callies recently about getting a 3.5 stroke crank for a bbc. That with a 4.310 bore(+.060) = 412ci of small block eating radial car! I'll turn that b!tch 10 out the back door at about 30-40 psi....

car_fixer

****, that will sound awesome!!!!

As for headers, ed quay's work ok, lemons might be better, usually cost more, but they work well. if you really want to spend big bucks, try stahl. Know what you are going to build for an engine first, headers can make a big difference if they math the combo correctly.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

There are a number of fairly streetable solid roller 383 sbc guys i've seen run in the 10's on motor with a pretty light car. EVen more so with 400+ inch sbc's

I would sure hope a big block car on motor could get there, especially one of the 500+ inchers

9's could happen too, with good heads and nice cam, i think it can be done and be fairly streetable but i'd suggest getting as many inches you can

why stop at a 468? build a 489 or 496. use the cubes. Dont have to spin it a ton. You can run mid 10's at 3450lbs with 500whp. Big block easily should make that. There are quite a few 402 lsx motors with 500-550 streetable whp. Big blocks have better heads and more cubes, why cant you make 600whp and be streetable? that will have a shot at 9's with right tranny/gear/converter

Shagwell

Unless you're going to bigger tires, the 489+ motors become more tempermental. The lower the power band/the bigger the stroke, the higher the torque. Not that it can't be done or isn't comon, just more tempermental, IMO. - I must say, there are several bbc radial guys making over 1000hp on nuts alone, and they launch with "x" % of their nitrous and ramp in from there. But, they also run a 3.73 or less gear to try to kill off some torque. That increases the wheel speed at the hit which in turn creates a variable. - It makes then line between controlled spin and spin finer.

All that said, I'm the guy who goes down a different path. - I have a quote written in my garage, "Following the sheep won't bring you success, you have to go down a different path. When you do that, you have to learn what they don't know" - Barney Navarro.

car_fixer - It should definitely be different, especially with a rear-mounted 96mm garrett.

ross

I am going big when I do the switch 540ci and up. I am looking more into the 565ci range, I am always happer every time I step up the cubic inch size.

Shagwell

two quotes come to mind:
"There is no replacement for displacement."
"The only thing that beats cubic inches is cubic dollars."

onebadzz

What do you mean just cause it worked is so in so car, it will work in mine.....LOL
Love the quote and so true...

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

I'm no where close to your class when it comes to performance. But, this thread caught my attention because:
1) I have a big block in my shoebox
2) I'm putting an LS1 in my 3rd gen
3) I'm going to do something with the '57 - just picked up a 454 block from which to make a higher compression (to take advantage of the E85 octane) 427 (using the 396 crank) and get better heads. But, I've also been considering an LQ9 for it instead - keep it FI, with a 4L80E for the OD and programmable shifts with same strength of the TH400. Whether to keep it E85 or not I haven't decided yet.

But I'm not looking to get anywhere close to the 9's; low 12's would be fine for me, 12.75 at altitude.

If you're looking for a wicked-powerful streetable BBC, go big. Like 540.

AlkyIROC

The 540/555/565 is easy because it still uses the standard 9.8" deck height. To go to a 572, 632 etc, you need a tall deck block which makes the swap a lot more difficult in a third gen.

AUSSIROC

iTrader: (1)

Subscribin'. Sweet thread.

IHI

iTrader: (1)

When it comes to pig blocks, "building" a 468 makes almost as much sense as buildinga a 305....you start pricing components and there's ample...AMPLE 540/555 shortblocks ready to be bought by legit builders for what you will have into the 468. Still takes all the same stuff on top so why not cash in on the almost extra 100cid for the same coin??

Fast 383

iTrader: (2)

Thats definetely a hard point to argue. When I start the build i'm sure I will cross that bridge and be faced with a lot of decissions. I think the 468 rings a bell with me because I know how much power I want to make. And I kind of know how I want to make it. 700-750 conservitively on motor will be sufficient. It will be tame enough to put street miles on also. Than I will use a NX gemini kit (50-300) HP to obtain numbers around 1000. At that point the car would be good hopefully for clean 8 seconed runs. Possibly 8.50's- 8.70's would be cool.

Another thing I agree with is that there is definetly a lot of finished short/long blocks to be had for good prices and by some big popular names. However, Everyone has that part of the car that there obsessed with and mine is sorting through all the internal engine manufacturers and researching which would be best for which part. I also like calling the tech lines and being educated on which particular parts work and don't work. Sounds crazy but...

After the combo is all put together and starts up and makes a dyno pull or 1/4 run it can be very rewarding.

jhainer

Well I bought my 468 for $2000.00 It has all the goodies inside Roller rockers 11.5 to 1 pistons with the close chamber heads bumps the ratio up to 13.5 to 1 the heads are old hipo cast iron heads this motor has gone 9.50 in the 1/4 in a tubed vega. father in law owned it. he couldn't remember the specs of the cam just that it was over 600 lift and over 300 duration the Carb is a 980 cfm I was told it was somewhere in 590 hp range I have had it fire but have yet to drive it. I do have a pic of it in the vega and the front tires of the vega about 3 ft in the air. I am hoping for 11's But i need to change gears in the rear for that I have 3.42 gears the vega had 4.56 gears. he had a th400 behind it with a 3500 stall I have a th400 behind it with a 2500 stall. He had huge headers that my son is useing in his 81 firebird I have the patriots talked about in the sticky. I still have alot to do to it before I can drive it. cut my driveshaft Buy the torque arm adapter run the trans lines and fab up a crossmember since It's a long tail 400 and cut the drive shaft to fit

AlkyIROC

Actually there is a bigger difference in a 540 than a 468. The 468 can be built using all factory parts and will still perform quite well. Even building a factory stroker under 500 CID can still use many factory parts including heads.

Once you get into the 540 range, you're starting to look at an aftermarket block although the factory 502 block can be bored out to the full 4.500" bore but then it still needs a stroker crank. There's also a big difference in head requirements for the bigger engine.

The 468 can survive with all the factory castings and the smaller of the aftermarket castings. I was running 310cc heads on my 540 for a couple of years and really noticed it running out of air on the top end. The 310's are designed for the factory displacement sizes. A street 540 could manage these smaller heads but a high reving race engine needs bigger heads. I just purchased some Dart 360 heads that have been heavily ported out. They flow 410CFM at .750" lift. These larger flowing heads that are required for the larger engines also cost a lot more than the cheaper smaller heads. If you get into the even bigger engines like 572 and 632, you're almost to the point where you need to use Big Chief style heads to feed the big engine although a smaller head can work if all you're doing is building a very large street engine but then you're defeating the purpose of the large engine.

It's not much different than building a large SBC. 434+ SBC engines need higher flowing heads. These heads in the SBC design get very expensive.

You can pick up some BBC aluminum 310-320cc heads for about $1000. For a 540, some 345 of any brand or AFR 357 heads work very well but you're also going to pay $3000+ for them. That's a big jump in price but also a big jump in performance.

Fast 383

iTrader: (2)

Thats another good point Stephen. I'm gonna ad that to my list of reasons to build under 500 Cu in.


Back to the origanal question...

What are the basics of putting the BBC in a third gen? Who has the headers? Are the mounts the same. What are the initial parts that need modifcation?

Someone post up a good engine bay pic that shows how much room there is.

jhainer

Honestly it is easy the small block mounts work. the headers are the only thing that is a pain. I went withthe patriot headers from summit. had to beat in the pass side floor board alittle and now i can put the headers in and out with the motor in. I have a 7 quart oil pan which made putting it in a pain but it does fit. if you use the 700r4 everything bolts right up if you switch to either the th350 or the th400 you will neeed the torque arm adapter. stick with a short tail 350 or 400 if you use a low intake you can use the stock hood. right now i am still useing the stock radiator and fans I have about a 1/2 in clearance between the fans motor and the water pump pully. I remember reading an artical back in the late 80's early 90's about gm putting a 454 ho in a z28 it had air the 700r4 and I remember them talking about gatorback tires and the car ram low 12's and they said a set of street slicks would have put them in the 11's and that was a car with air and looked factory. thats where i got the idea of doing a bbc in a third gen it has just taken me almost 20 something years to do it. IF you do a search here and on google ther eis a webpage out there that talks about the article and gives teh gm part # for the intake and oil pan I believe it was off of a chevelle. I can't wait until i finally get to drive Mine. I have only got to hear it run in my son's 81 firebird then we pulled it to put it in the iroc.

Have fun with it and then enjoy it
http://www.cardomain.com/id/jhainer01
check this out for photos of the Iroc from the day i bought it to now there is also some photos of the bbc in it

AlkyIROC

My first BBC used the factory engine mounts. I later switched to solid mounts and now use a front motor plate.

As long as you use a factory style head with the exhaust ports in the factory position, the Hooker Supercomp swap headers are the cheapest and easiest to use. As soon as you start using heads with raised exhaust ports, fitting headers become difficult. Some people have had luck fitting some second gen headers. You could use a shorty header to make installation easier but you will give up a little performance in doing so.

The basics of the swap is no different than any other Chev engine swap. BBC and SBC bellhousing bolt patterns are the same. The engine mounts are in the same position. Because the BBC is a longer block, the extra length goes forward so the water pump and fan get a little closer to the rad but they still fit.

Because the BBC was never offered in a third gen, it's not a 100% direct swap and some modifications are required. What needs to be modified depends on what you intend to do. Stay away from tall valve covers and the heater assembly isn't an issue.

I'd show you a picture of my installed engine but it fills the engine compartment a lot more than other BBC installs. I use 2-1/4" primary tube headers and had to relocate the steering column to clear the header tubes. My engine is also dropped as low as I can get it and pushed back about an inch from the stock location.

You could still go with a 540 for not much more than a 468. Some inexpensive 320cc heads will do fine. I was able to run low 9's at altitude with some well used unported 310cc heads.

As mentioned somewhere above, the price of a crate engine isn't much different.

Here's a 540 street engine for $10,500 but it does have some exotic stuff
http://www.jegs.com/p/World+Products/758097/10002/-1

A mild 496 is only $5900
http://www.jegs.com/p/Blueprint+Engines/855989/10002/-1

A basic 502HO is only $6100
http://www.jegs.com/p/GM+Performance/749886/10002/-1

Before you buy a lot of parts including factory stuff, price out what a prebuilt engine would cost. Building an engine requires a lot of machine shop work to build it properly. Parts and labor can go a lot higher than buying a crate engine. The only advantage to building your own engine is you get to pick and choose exactly what parts you want to use. They may not be the best combination but you can say it's your engine.

cmystones_77

i picked up an 88 camero w/ a blown v6 and a five speed for 200. the body has 2 spots of surface rust that can be covered with a dime and a couple of smell dents . i already have a 402+.030 a set of 101cc iron heads a 6223 crank, roller rockers, and a performer manifold all for 500. so i definatly want to put the two together. any info on what mounts to use or where to get them.

AlkyIROC

Anywhere that sells GM V8 mounts.

Your V6 T5 tranny won't work.

Shagwell

Trans nor rear-end will handle the grunt of even a mild big-block.

IHI

iTrader: (1)

I'd say for street driving on street tires the rears will hold up provided they dont let wheel hop get the best of them, but i just see too much grunt for any traction to jar the teeth off the ring or pinion. add some stickies though and i agree...they're both hashed in short order!!!

christian'sZ

what about a 502,headers,A/C, and a richmond 5spd. is it doable without having to reinvent the wheel?

AlkyIROC

502 is the same as any other short deck BBC up to and including a 540.

What it takes to install a short deck BBC is the same no matter if it's a 396 or a 540. Getting above 540 and you start getting into tall decks. That's when it gets a bit more difficult.

The transmission installation has nothing to do with the engine however a transmission strong enough for the engine should be used.

christian'sZ

what about big primary tube headers and A/C? also how bad dose the collector interfear with the clutch slave cylinder? I dont see any big block cars with ac and a 5spd.

jhainer

Is that the artical that they did a 454 h.o. with ac and the whole thing looked stock. If i remember correctly it ran like 12.2 and if they put slicks on it it would have been in the 11's and the 12 was on gatorback tires.